Filling the Dan Tien

[Antares]

22 minutes ago, Lairg said:

The average human mind has various attached intelligences, energies, patterns and traumas.  Many have adverse effects on the human.

 

Yes, but this is just hun qualities. But de (vurtuous power) is something different from it 

[ChiDragon]

Let me make this clear. The dual cultivation of xing and ming is to have a pure mind and a perfect body. The intention was not mainly to be a virtuous person. However, it just came as part of the result of the dual cultivation.

[Sahaja]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

i struggle with the concept of de

 

it's not virtue as we use it, it's got nothing to do with booklearning

 

at the moment i see it as right conduct that presents itself naturally.

( writing this, that suggests that de is needed for wu-wei)

 

looks to me that the combination of work with the body and work with the heartmind transforms/ can transform a person in such a way that she or he will grow in the amount of time/interactions that his/her conduct can be called/conforms to de

I don’t know whether this is the best definition  but I liked it when I read it 

 

‘De is the creative power of the Dao (the natural Way), which engenders, nurtures, and perfects the world.  ‘

 

i agree it requires wu Wei and likely wu Zhi as well. Kindness too and definitely humility 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

( writing this, that suggests that de is needed for wu-wei)

This de(德) is the definition given in the TTC. It is the virtue of let nature take its course(wu-wei).

 

The other de is morality and is different from the de in the TTC.

[Taoist Texts]

10 hours ago, Antares said:

Yes, but this is just hun qualities. But de (vurtuous power) is something different from it 

it would be more clear what is it if you gave a concrete example as to what it is and what does it do. because without a concrete example it makes no sense

[Antares]

2 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

it would be more clear what is it if you gave a concrete example as to what it is and what does it do. because without a concrete example it makes no sense

I am sorry but I cant tell more. This is secret information

[Taoist Texts]

9 minutes ago, Antares said:

I am sorry but I cant tell more. This is secret information

no problem at all but if so, then whats the point of talking about something we do not know what we are talking about?

Besides there is no 'something different De' in 仙佛合宗语录 Recorded Sayings on the Common Tradition of Buddhas and Saints. So claim that there is a different De in neidan makes no sense all around.

[Antares]

Alright. The excerpt from  仙佛合宗语录

Spoiler

 

Quote

There is a great distance between man and heaven, and if man's virtue is in harmony with heaven, he is one with heaven. 

 

The De is the piece of Dao within a person. So this is not just hun qualities and not mental thinking

[Lairg]

"in Chinese Daoism, the heavenly (and more spiritual) “souls” of the human being that leave the body on death, as distinguished from po, the earthly (and more material) souls. These souls are multiple; each person is usually said to have three hun and seven po."

https://www.britannica.com/topic/hun-Daoism

 

The system of 3 higher and 7 lower  sefirot/souls also occurs in the Kabbalistic Tree of Life as it fits on the human.

 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta29.htm

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Lairg

[Lairg]

 

The similarity of the Jewish teaching on souls with the Chinese seems to come from Egypt.  Both Egypt and China were traditionally founded by a brother and sister pair that in both places were depicted as part serpent

 

 

[Cobie]

16 minutes ago, Lairg said:

The similarity of the Jewish teaching on souls with the Chinese seems to come from Egypt. …

@awaken posted that the Xia dynasty was in Egypt. 
 

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

55 minutes ago, Antares said:

There is a great distance between man and heaven, and if man's virtue is in harmony with heaven, he is one with heaven. 

very good. man's virtue 人德 which means  the normal regular human virtue. not some kind of a fancy neidan virtue as you claim. Because this quote absolutely does not  imply that there is  some kind fancy neidan virtue to be manufactured through neidan process as you claim. 

59 minutes ago, Antares said:

The De is the piece of Dao within a person. 

Of course it is and that De is the normal regular human virtue. not some kind new fancy neidan virtue as you claim because everyone and everything already  possesses  a piece of Dao  inherently.

Quote

 

Dong-guo Zi asked Zhuangzi, saying, 'Where is what you call the Dao to be found?' Zhuangzi replied, 'Everywhere.' The other said, 'Specify an instance of it. That will be more satisfactory.' ' It is here in this ant.' 'Give a lower instance.' 'It is in this panic grass.' 'Give me a still lower instance.' 'It is in this earthenware tile.' 

https://ctext.org/zhuangzi?searchu=dao&page=6#n2882

 

 

[Antares]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

fancy neidan virtue

 

I loughed. Write more nosenses please

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Of course it is and that De is the normal regular human virtue. not some kind new fancy neidan virtue as you claim because everyone and everything already  possesses  a piece of Dao  inherently.

 

Yes, of course. But the matter is HOW MUCH. It can be low or high. 

[Taoist Texts]

7 minutes ago, Antares said:

Yes, of course. But the matter is HOW MUCH. It can be low or high. 

this is not what you said first at all. Its the opposite of what you said first

18 hours ago, Antares said:

Is not the virtue the result of Xing - Ming interaction? 

First you said that De  is the result  of Xing - Ming interaction. Now you say that it does not. Now you admit that of course De exists regardless of any Xing - Ming interaction. You  keep making conflicting statements.

 

15 minutes ago, Antares said:

the matter is HOW MUCH. It can be low or high. 

 

It is not clear what  does this even mean. Does this imply that the amount of "De is the result  of Xing - Ming interaction"?

[Antares]

Alright. The information in regard to what is De is not that much a secret. You can find it in texts. But Xing - Ming interaction is more the secret which is not disclosed to outsiders. One needs special methods for this and it is pointless just talking about it. I just wanted to clarify a little more on this subject because I see some people are in confusion about it. Just theory is useless information 

[-_sometimes]

On 25/02/2023 at 5:11 PM, freeform said:

Once you reorient your cultivation towards spirit, the qi you build starts to support the flourishing of the Original Self rather than the Acquired Self.

This is interesting. So eventually you want to move towards cultivating spirit? And by doing so you can move towards expressing original nature as opposed to your base nature. That makes sense. 

 

The difficultly perhaps is getting sidetracked once you have developed and refined the energy body into using that excess qi to fuel one's base nature. Finding a teacher who is accomplished spiritually as well as energetically then, might be a wise approach, as they can guide you in the right direction once you are accomplished enough. 

[doc benway]

On 2/25/2023 at 4:01 PM, blue eyed snake said:

i struggle with the concept of de

 

it's not virtue as we use it, it's got nothing to do with booklearning

 

at the moment i see it as right conduct that presents itself naturally.

( writing this, that suggests that de is needed for wu-wei)

 

looks to me that the combination of work with the body and work with the heartmind transforms/ can transform a person in such a way that she or he will grow in the amount of time/interactions that his/her conduct can be called/conforms to de

 

I think the 'struggle' is healthy, it is open, alive and sincere.

I get a sense that it denotes a curiosity, an unwillingness to settle on someone else's limited definition and a desire for deeper exploration of personal meaning.

When we [think we] know the answer and are settled in that knowledge, we're limited.

We've shut ourselves off to growth. 

 

My sense of de is also related to wu wei.

While I don't doubt that "de is needed for wu wei,"

I suggest that de can be considered as a 'result' or the human manifestation of wu wei. 

What does the dao look like when it is embodied in a person?  It looks like de.

How is de accomplished or experienced?  It is discovered and expressed through wu wei.

De for me connotes a sense of authenticity and integrity, it is the human expression of the dao through our non-interference, through our openness and clarity.

De can be seen as a measure of the degree to which we are aligned with our unfabricated nature, zi ran.

Like you, understanding is an ongoing project for me, gradually becoming less and less dependent on words and concepts. 

[Sahaja]

On 2/25/2023 at 2:07 PM, Sahaja said:

I don’t know whether this is the best definition  but I liked it when I read it 

 

‘De is the creative power of the Dao (the natural Way), which engenders, nurtures, and perfects the world.  ‘

 

i agree it requires wu Wei and likely wu Zhi as well. Kindness too and definitely humility 

I recently read a description of kundalini as the creative power of Siva after I posted the note above. Interesting parallel. 

[blue eyed snake]

22 hours ago, steve said:

 

I think the 'struggle' is healthy, it is open, alive and sincere.

I get a sense that it denotes a curiosity, an unwillingness to settle on someone else's limited definition and a desire for deeper exploration of personal meaning.

 

yes, although reading a bit can be helpful it's the personal meaning that counts. 

When that has grown a bit the old texts ( or the words of a teacher) get another meaning too.

 

Quote

When we [think we] know the answer and are settled in that knowledge, we're limited.

We've shut ourselves off to growth. 

 

teacher once told us:when new things/experiences happen do not (try to) give meaning,  jot it down and let it rest. after about 5 years the meaning will be clear(er) to you. Methinks that encompasses what you say here.

 

Quote

 

My sense of de is also related to wu wei.

While I don't doubt that "de is needed for wu wei,"

I suggest that de can be considered as a 'result' or the human manifestation of wu wei. 

What does the dao look like when it is embodied in a person?  It looks like de.

How is de accomplished or experienced?  It is discovered and expressed through wu wei.

De for me connotes a sense of authenticity and integrity, it is the human expression of the dao through our non-interference, through our openness and clarity.

De can be seen as a measure of the degree to which we are aligned with our unfabricated nature, zi ran.

Like you, understanding is an ongoing project for me, gradually becoming less and less dependent on words and concepts. 

 

that's interesting

 

"What does the dao look like when it is embodied in a person?  It looks like de."

 

yes, and De does not need to look like conforming to the current societal morality. It seems to have it source at the location of the heart. When younger I believed that, now I think it's not the source but err... the place were heaven and earth meet to shape our/this behavior ( De)

 

will reread your post later.

Edited March 13, 2023 by blue eyed snake
typo

[dwai]

22 hours ago, steve said:

What does the dao look like when it is embodied in a person?  It looks like de.

 

This is wonderful! In the tradition I belong to, De is considered a full microscopic version of the Dao that is contained within each of us. In my understanding,  it is our essential nature/true nature, wrapped in layers of personality/conditioning. So De is not necessarily a set of "virtues" or "actions" or "qualities", but our true nature, which is none other than Dao itself. Being Dao, of course when the layers of conditioning are set aside/recognized for what they are, right action, qualities, and virtues naturally emanate, through the individual. 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

teacher once told us:when new things/experiences happen do not (try to) give meaning,  jot it down and let it rest. after about 5 years the meaning will be clear(er) to you.

 

I really like that!

Sometimes in retreat people get frustrated with things they don’t understand. Our teacher says something like, focus on what makes sense now and be open to the possibility that other things will become clearer as you gain experience.

[-_sometimes]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

Being Dao, of course when the layers of conditioning are set aside/recognized for what they are, right action, qualities, and virtues naturally emanate, through the individual. 

Have you ever met anyone like or close to this?

[dwai]

22 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

Have you ever met anyone like or close to this?

Yup. My teacher is one such person. I've met a few other such people as well. 

[-_sometimes]

10 minutes ago, dwai said:

Yup. My teacher is one such person. I've met a few other such people as well. 

What are they like? How does it feel to be around them? Are they noticeably different to other people, eg would you know they express original nature if you saw them just like that, or perhaps through speaking with them? Or is it more subtle? Hope you don't mind the questions!  

Edited March 13, 2023 by -_sometimes

[dwai]

1 hour ago, -_sometimes said:

What are they like? How does it feel to be around them? Are they noticeably different to other people, eg would you know they express original nature if you saw them just like that, or perhaps through speaking with them? Or is it more subtle? Hope you don't mind the questions!  

That's a very loaded question. Everyone has original nature, but it doesn't come through in most cases because of the layers of conditioning that obscure it. In my experience, especially around my teacher - especially when he initiated me, layers of conditioning fell away, even though I had been a serious practitioner for 15 years, thirteen of which were in the daoist arts,  before meeting him, and had more than enough theoretical knowledge and understanding. But that one touch of his index finger to my forehead resulted in my remaining in a blissed-out state for almost 18 months, and veils of ignorance dropped off. It took me a while to understand or articulate what had happened, but I realized that how I was feeling was his natural state 24x7. Thankfully it has been my natural state for several years now as well, even amidst the most crazy turmoil in my life.

 

Similarly some others I've met, who are not daoists/dao practitioners, but when they speak I can sense the words coming from direct experience rather than intellectual knowledge. Around such people, there is usually an air of clarity and serenity.  But the thing to remember is, true nature (as opposed to the conditioned personality) recognizes true nature. 

Edited March 13, 2023 by dwai