Mahayana vs Theravada

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I tend to draw one foot back under the chair, when I have occasion to sit for any length of time on a chair.  One foot flat on the floor, the other on the ball of the foot.

 

I sit half lotus, but I can see that this is going to need to migrate for me as time goes on. Posture is a crazy thing - my students get a lot out of just looking to have as little muscle tension as possible, and leaning back until there is a "click" in the first few minutes of sitting, and meditation suddenly deepens. 
 

Quote

Never heard "Indian style" called a quarter-lotus before!

 

I think it is something of a nod to political correctness, but has the added benefit of clarity, IMHO.

 

Quote

It's a difficulty, reconciling "cessation" (of action that follows from determinate thought) with directions about posture. 

I thought I understood the science, but I got one thing wrong.  I write about it, here:

https://zenmudra.com/for-a-friend-revisited-anm/

Your article is very interestingly technical, but I would say that we can simplify this and say that "self" is present anytime we identify a sensation as "I". We can identify "I" in any sensation. Cessation in my experience happens when thought stops and identification with sensations as a "self" drops out. So, when posture supports the minimum of body sensation it is optimal. 

 

Nice to see a Zen/Chan practitioner here. What school are you working in? I'm Soto Zen/Suzuki Roshi lineage.

[Mark Foote]

11 hours ago, stirling said:

Posture is a crazy thing...

That!  I try to provide myself with the facts, and hope that the posture will come together, to the extent necessary.
 

Quote

Your article is very interestingly technical, but I would say that we can simplify this and say that "self" is present anytime we identify a sensation as "I". We can identify "I" in any sensation. Cessation in my experience happens when thought stops and identification with sensations as a "self" drops out. So, when posture supports the minimum of body sensation it is optimal. 

I tend to focus on the development of "one-pointedness of mind", but the "drop" is the same:

"... making self-surrender [one’s] object of thought, [one] lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness of mind."

(on "the ‘controlling power of concentration’", SN V 199-200, Vol V pg 175-176)

 

Self-surrender, for sure. 

You might like my summary of the teaching, in The Early Record--I'm not often able to practice in the way Gautama practiced, but sometimes his instruction is helpful to me.  Which is startling.  I sit in hope of cessation (of habitual or voluntary action) with regard to action of the body and "the sign of the concentration", for the rhythm of mindfulness, and I return to "lack of desire, by means of lack of desire" so just sitting.  
 

Quote

Nice to see a Zen/Chan practitioner here. What school are you working in?

Kobun was my main influence, although I only attended his lectures and sat a sesshin with him for a few days, never was his student.  I like to think of myself as a member of his "guerilla army". 

I wrote about one of the "more to the picture than meets the eye" things about sitting, and Kobun's passing, here.

I did look at the website associated with the PDF about posture--if that's you, you are certainly ambitious behind sharing the teaching, I wish you good luck.

 

[stirling]

7 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

That!  I try to provide myself with the facts, and hope that the posture will come together, to the extent necessary.

 

Agree. I am often startled when I am settling in to find a spot, usually as I slowly lean back, where my mind just stops. Love that.  I sit Zazen, but had 25 years in the Nyingma/Dzogchen traditions, so it's always open awareness, which his the same. One pointedness, yes, but taking in the entire frame of experience.

 

Quote

You might like my summary of the teaching, in The Early Record

 

I'll check it out, thanks!

 

Quote

Kobun was my main influence, although I only attended his lectures and sat a sesshin with him for a few days, never was his student.  I like to think of myself as a member of his "guerilla army". 

 

You'll be intrigued by this:

 

My Tibetan teacher Lama Tharchin Rinpoche passed away and my practice took a dive. After having a very deep insight about 8 years ago, I sought out the nearest sangha to me. I lived in the Santa Cruz mountains, so that sangha was Jikoji. I started working with a teacher there, and did all of the retreats for 4 years, getting the opportunity to work with a number of Kobun's students, including the abbot of Jikoji, and the abbot of Hokoji, both transmitted by Kobun. 

 

 

Quote

I wrote about one of the "more to the picture than meets the eye" things about sitting, and Kobun's passing, here.

 

Thanks! I also had the opportunity to work with some of his archival materials, some of which is here:

 

https://www.jikoji.org/biography
 

I am not Shinzen Young, but respect him greatly. I collect direct and well-spoken dharma whenever I see it with the intention of sharing with my discussion groups. 

 

Small world!

 

Deep bows.

Edited February 8, 2022 by stirling

[Mark Foote]

I don't think liveanddare dot com is Shinzen's, though I see the author of the PDF on posture was a Shinzen aficionado.  Not you either, I guess!

"I am often startled when I am settling in to find a spot, usually as I slowly lean back, where my mind just stops."  

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

 

(Dogen, Genjo Koan tr. Aitken and Tanahashi).

 

"... it's always open awareness, which is the same. One pointedness, yes, but taking in the entire frame of experience."

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…

(Ibid)

Ok, all three parts of it:

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point… Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent.

 

(Ibid)
 

Kobun:  "You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around" (closing a lecture I heard at SFZC).

The former abbot of Jikoji is a mellow and dedicated fellow, IMHO.  I'm sure the abbot of Hokoji is the same, and I admire Vanja, the head of the tribe.   I'll have to read the biography, the first few paragraphs are sterling (ha ha).

From my latest post:

 

It’s definitely a catch-22. It’s necessary to have “freedom of the singular location of self-awareness to move in space” in order to generate and sustain an even stretch, but it’s also necessary to have an even stretch in order to experience “freedom of the singular location of self-awareness”.

(One Thing and Another)

 

IMHO, that's why we sit everyday, to re-establish the stretch (and the freedom). 

As I quote at the end of that piece--Gautama's advice on the attainment of states of concentration:

 

“Lack of desire”, said Gautama, “by means of lack of desire.”

(MN III 220, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 269)
 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

... (Kobun) emphasized life-in-the-world, encouraged his students to marry and have children, and to live the Dharma like guerillas, devotedly, but in secret.

Yup.  At least, that was my take.   And if we succeeded, we would right the ship all the way to Japan.

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Quote

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point… Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent. - Dogen, Genjo Koan

 

 

Indeed... despite it being present in this moment without exception.

 

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Kobun:  "You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around" (closing a lecture I heard at SFZC).

 

Ian Forsberg (Hokoji abbot) tells a story about asking Kobun a story in dokusan and Kobe just jumping out the window and legging it into the forest. Sometimes zazen runs!  

 

 

Quote

The former abbot of Jikoji is a mellow and dedicated fellow, IMHO. 

 

Is Michael Newhall? Definitely. He might be on hiatus and Doug Jacobson might be running things.

 

Quote

I'm sure the abbot of Hokoji is the same.

 

Ian is one of my favorite people anywhere/anytime.

 

Quote

...and I admire Vanja, the head of the tribe. 

 

Only met him once, but an amazing person.

 

Quote

 I'll have to read the biography, the first few paragraphs are sterling (ha ha).

 

Haha!

Quote

 

IMHO, that's why we sit everyday, to re-establish the stretch (and the freedom). 

As I quote at the end of that piece--Gautama's advice on the attainment of states of concentration:

 

“Lack of desire”, said Gautama, “by means of lack of desire.”

 

 

Indeed. Hopefully we contact spaciousness many, many times a day, trying to keep it in the present moment in all activity. 

[stirling]

8 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

... (Kobun) emphasized life-in-the-world, encouraged his students to marry and have children, and to live the Dharma like guerillas, devotedly, but in secret.

 

Indeed. While I actually came from the Nyingma tradition, the crazy wisdom, householder encouragement, and more all resonate very much in both. My late teacher Jana Drakka felt sure that the Tibetan traditions were some influence on C'han/Zen. Seems quite possible.

Edited February 9, 2022 by stirling

[Apech]

12 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Indeed. While I actually came from the Nyingma tradition, the crazy wisdom, householder encouragement, and more all resonate very much in both. My late teacher Jana Drakka felt sure that the Tibetan traditions were some influence on C'han/Zen. Seems quite possible.

 

Or the other way round

 

I can heartily recommend this book:

 

https://www.shambhala.com/tibetan-zen-3348.html

[Mark Foote]

I believe Michael is retired, and his transmitted students are hosting Jikoji collectively.  Doug's a mainstay of the establishment, no doubt!

Only slightly off-topic, all this last, my apologies to the OPster.

[stirling]

On 2/9/2022 at 10:11 AM, Apech said:

 

Or the other way round

 

I can heartily recommend this book:

 

https://www.shambhala.com/tibetan-zen-3348.html

 

Yes... sorry.  

 

Thanks for the recommend!

[stirling]

23 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I believe Michael is retired, and his transmitted students are hosting Jikoji collectively.  Doug's a mainstay of the establishment, no doubt!

Only slightly off-topic, all this last, my apologies to the OPster.

 

Ah... Michael's retirement is news to me. I'm hoping you mean other Kobun-transmitted students are running things... I haven't met many of Michaels students that would be ready for that, IMHO. 

 

Doug Jacobsen is a voice of great wisdom and patience. He is has been my teacher (informally) in many ways. 

 

Also bows to the thread owner for digressions.