Forum member "spotless". Missing messages.

[Earl Grey]

9 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

This is the second time you've mentioned Walker in this type of context; yet I haven't seen anything to indicate he's leaving/ has left/was pushed out. 

 

(And I'm finding myself unable to reconcile the idea of anyone being able to push him anywhere..)

 

His genocide post was an unambiguous goodbye letter.

[Earl Grey]

8 hours ago, C T said:

Yes, I think the balance wasn't tilted that much with their assumed departure. Do you honestly believe they were pushed, or was it that they simply could not muster the patience, a vital element on the spiritual path and life in general, to self-reflect and conclude that maybe others are allowed to have their own opinions, and may not enjoy having things shoved down their throats, regardless? And when opposing views clash, to then resort to vile ad hominems and feeling justified for doing so? Is this the behavioural content that leads to the balance you hinted at? 

I do not know if Spotless actually left at all. All I know is that after his extremely passive-aggressive post not only directed at me, but grouping me with people as some sort of agenda-driven misfits on setting up shop and then mysteriously hiding his thread after I responded to it seemed more like he had an about-face realization and went to that new forum dwai opened up that seems more like further splintering as OD and WMP and LMP and LU all have their own members.
 

While WMP, LMP, and LU seem to mostly keep to themselves, OD has lurkers come here from time to time and the new forum dwai started seems more like a retirement home for gossips who can’t speak up directly to people whom they have issues with, as one thread is the EXACT. SAME. THING. with the same people continuing their imaginary complaints about an imaginary group of mine that doesn’t even exist, of which Spotless and his fellow gossips are griping about.

 

So to me, I don’t think he left, I think he just found a place with other grumpy gossips who are either too passive-aggressive but can’t handle when someone calls it or want to sit in a room and play bingo together safe and far away from the imaginary big bad wolves who don’t exist here. So likely he is there for bingo and will be back here offering unsolicited advice while criticizing those he believes offer unsolicited advice, setting up shop with his copyright notice in his signature while complaining about others here who set up shop long ago like Flying Phoenix or how this whole forum was already from Healing Tao originally and had an open love for Stillness-Movement and Spring Forest, not to mention Kun Lun.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Earl Grey

[Earl Grey]

34 minutes ago, Yueya said:

A couple of quotations from Jung. I know these insights will annoy all parties involved in heated disputation on this forum, but I’m hoping they will be potentially helpful because most people here value inner growth.

 

“But anyone who can stand the animosity of his fellows without being infected by it, and is capable at the same time of examining it critically, cannot help discovering that they are possessed. It is, however, more advantageous and more to the point to subject to the most rigorous scrutiny one’s own moods and their changing influence on one’s personality. To know where the other person makes a mistake is of little value. It only becomes interesting when you know where you make the mistake, for then you can do something about it. What we can improve in others is of doubtful utility as a rule, if, indeed, it has any effect at all.”

 

“Today humanity, as never before, is split into two apparently irreconcilable halves. The psychological rule says that when an inner situation is not made conscious, it happens outside, as fate. That is to say, when the individual remains undivided and does not become conscious of his inner opposite, the world must perforce act out the conflict and be torn into opposing halves.”

 

Jung does not offer any quick fixes for this. I know from personal experience recognising some of these opposites within me (aspects of my shadow self) is hugely confronting. The last major revelation that life forced me to acknowledge about myself took me over a decade to work through. It tore me apart. I wouldn’t wish it on anybody. Yet working through it has proved enormously enriching for me.  What Jung does say is that ‘wholeness’ means recognising these warring forces within oneself and voluntarily taking on the burden.  Otherwise, if one is destined to descend into his deep pit of inner knowing, it will catch one unawares. He says it’s better to go about it with precautions, rather than falling backwards into a hole. I definitely fell backward into this hole.

 

I’ll give a very simple example of what I mean by projecting one’s shadow: In the current ‘China’ discussion, a couple of people speaking out the loudest against the totalitarianism of the CCP because of its liquidating of dissent are adamant that two Dao Bum members who oppose them should be banned. Although they abhor the liquidating of dissent when others do it, they are seemingly unconscious of their own similar totalitarian desires.

 

Of course, there’s nothing wrong with developing and voicing moral judgement, just be aware that all we humans have the same underlying psyche. These problems don’t only exist out there in others, they originate with our own inner makeup. We are all like this. Jung made the observation that our human psyche is energised by a complex array of opposing forces. He sees our psyche as a system of energy flows (qi flows), and energies can only flow where there’s polar difference.

 

(In writing this post I'm aware that I'm taking on some of the burden of Dao Bums disputation and possibly the animosity of certain members. It's something I do willingly, though not without reluctance, because I value this site. Also I'm interested to see how my perspective is received. That way I potentially gain new insight into myself.)

 

 

All things considered, the vitriol between the people you mentioned calling for bans is still nowhere near the animosity and hostility that happened with the Trump threads, as it not only went across multiple threads but led to outright poisoning the entire forum. Here it looked more like a few people had a big argument akin to shouting at each other in a restaurant, with Trump discussion, it looked like people needed to have a restraining order for everyone else’s safety.

[liminal_luke]

If I had my druthers, this board wouldn´t be a place to talk politics.  If we´re gonna talk politics -- and that seems inevitable -- I´d prefer we leave personal attacks out of it.  I didn´t mind so much that people liked Trump.  I minded that they belittled those who didn´t share their opinion.  Turns out the lefty crowd is just as willing to belittle those who don´t share their opinions so I guess we´re about even in this regard. 

 

Heated passionate arguments about issues, political and spiritual, is potentially useful.  Insults, sarcasm, ridicule -- not so much.

[Earl Grey]

On 4/27/2020 at 10:33 AM, liminal_luke said:

Insults, sarcasm, ridicule -- not so much.

 

The problem with being polite is that it doesn't eliminate passive-aggression-- which is harder to deal with than bluntness. 

 

Sometimes, it does take a fair bit of rudeness when individuals like deranged, perverted, and dangerous people come.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Earl Grey
Because Trunk requested it as part of a complete breakfast. Now you’re playing with power, super power! Batteries not included.

[C T]

Don't know about others, but to some extent, having an unstable individual in the position of leader of the most powerful nation in the world deserves close scrutiny. Period. Spiritual honesty is a virtue. As one, it means to the have courage to look at one's world in its totality, and not just the cotton candy aspects that appeal due to one's preference for peace and harmony, not realizing that Indra's net does not allow one to be selective in choosing to see only some aspects of existence and not others. 

 

Yes, I'm one of guilty ones who will not retreat from jumping onto controversial discussions, especially when it's clear some members are here for the sole intent of poisoning the well. My style may not reflect your ideals and expectations of what constitutes a cultivator, but my motives are sincere. I have no animosity towards those who choose to be rude and loud, but I'm more than willing to engage at their level in tones they understand, in context-specific terms. I do not resort to swear words, and will not initiate ridicule on anyone here. No matter how heated, I do not target individuals and go after them in subsequent posts in other topics, to hunt anyone out and continue inciting conflict. Where there is no aggression, none will be offered from my end. 

 

For clarification. 

[Earl Grey]

 

7 minutes ago, C T said:

Don't know about others, but to some extent, having an unstable individual in the position of leader of the most powerful nation in the world deserves close scrutiny. Period. Spiritual honesty is a virtue. As one, it means to the have courage to look at one's world in its totality, and not just the cotton candy aspects that appeal due to one's preference for peace and harmony, not realizing that Indra's net does not allow one to be selective in choosing to see only some aspects of existence and not others. 

 

Yes, I'm one of guilty ones who will not retreat from jumping onto controversial discussions, especially when it's clear some members are here for the sole intent of poisoning the well. My style may not reflect your ideals and expectations of what constitutes a cultivator, but my motives are sincere. I have no animosity towards those who choose to be rude and loud, but I'm more than willing to engage at their level in tones they understand, in context-specific terms. I do not resort to swear words, and will not initiate ridicule on anyone here. No matter how heated, I do not target individuals and go after them in subsequent posts in other topics, to hunt anyone out and continue inciting conflict. Where there is no aggression, none will be offered from my end. 

 

For clarification. 

 

7 minutes ago, C T said:

My style may not reflect your ideals and expectations of what constitutes a cultivator, but my motives are sincere.

 

Being a cultivator or not isn't important for the points I've made, but being a cultivator does make me hold people to higher standards because they should and do know better. Being a non-cultivator doesn't faze me much because I treat it the way a college kid reacts to a middle school kid insisting that he knows more because he saw something on YouTube (or, more specifically, look at the way a number of us rolled our eyes at some Heartbreak threads). 

 

The sincerity is the only key point that matters to me, especially in this context, CT.

 

4 minutes ago, C T said:

I have no animosity towards those who choose to be rude and loud, but I'm more than willing to engage at their level in tones they understand, in context-specific terms.

 

This context-specific engagement was quite clear seeing we had two conversations simultaneously and different tones entirely the other day! 

 

5 minutes ago, C T said:

I do not resort to swear words, and will not initiate ridicule on anyone here. No matter how heated, I do not target individuals and go after them in subsequent posts in other topics, to hunt anyone out and continue inciting conflict

 

This should be expected of everyone--sadly, the Trump threads and people like joeblast or the WMP boys seemed to do this frequently. 

 

6 minutes ago, C T said:

For clarification. 

 

None was needed on my end because I already knew this, but it is at least a nice direct statement for others to see in case they didn't. 

[Rara]

16 hours ago, Yueya said:

Jung does not offer any quick fixes for this. I know from personal experience recognising some of these opposites within me (aspects of my shadow self) is hugely confronting. The last major revelation that life forced me to acknowledge about myself took me over a decade to work through. It tore me apart. I wouldn’t wish it on anybody. Yet working through it has proved enormously enriching for me.  What Jung does say is that ‘wholeness’ means recognising these warring forces within oneself and voluntarily taking on the burden.  Otherwise, if one is destined to descend into his deep pit of inner knowing, it will catch one unawares. He says it’s better to go about it with precautions, rather than falling backwards into a hole. I definitely fell backward into this hole.

 

+1

 

And if anyone needs help with this, watch Avatar The Last Airbender and watch what happens to Prince Zuko....

[dwai]

1 hour ago, ऋषि said:

BTW - has anyone spotted Spotless yet?

While it might not be my place to share this, am I the only one who’s finding the tone and tenor of interactions here on TDB continuing down the same toxic spiral it was on before the trunk-spanking given to some individuals? 
 

For all those who’re hating on spotless, He and his family have been struggling with Covid-19 for a while now. I find it absolutely disgusting how utterly petty and petulant things have become here! 
 

These are very ‘interesting times’ as that old curse goes — and we ARE living in them. Why can’t we show each other some compassion and kindness? 
 

Several of our long term bums might have caught the disease and might be under duress and distress right now. Instead of coming together as a community we are now bickering amongst the survivors for some silly “forum dominance”?!?  
 

i don’t know what else to say...many of you who have been bickering here I hold in high regard — are serious practitioners and knowledgeable in your own traditions/areas of expertise. Why then such pettiness? 
 

I used to tell my daughter this when she was a toddler — if someone’s mean to you, play with someone else. If no one wants to hang out with you, entertain yourself — play a game by yourself.

I think that applies to us, whatever age we might be. 
 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

While it might not be my place to share this, am I the only one who’s finding the tone and tenor of interactions here on TDB continuing down the same toxic spiral it was on before the trunk-spanking given to some individuals? 
 

For all those who’re hating on spotless, He and his family have been struggling with Covid-19 for a while now. I find it absolutely disgusting how utterly petty and petulant things have become here! 
 

These are very ‘interesting times’ as that old curse goes — and we ARE living in them. Why can’t we show each other some compassion and kindness? 
 

Several of our long term bums might have caught the disease and might be under duress and distress right now. Instead of coming together as a community we are now bickering amongst the survivors for some silly “forum dominance”?!?  
 

i don’t know what else to say...many of you who have been bickering here I hold in high regard — are serious practitioners and knowledgeable in your own traditions/areas of expertise. Why then such pettiness? 
 

I used to tell my daughter this when she was a toddler — if someone’s mean to you, play with someone else. If no one wants to hang out with you, entertain yourself — play a game by yourself.

I think that applies to us, whatever age we might be. 
 

 

 

 

I started no conflict with Spotless. But he made no attempt to hide his disdain for me across multiple threads before I responded directly and called him out. I have every right to defend myself. 

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

I started no conflict with Spotless. But he made no attempt to hide his disdain for me across multiple threads before I responded directly and called him out. I have every right to defend myself. 

I found that we have to let go of these slights and insults. If I had a penny for every time someone said or did something to "diss" me, I'd be a millionaire (at least) by now. More we poke at them, the more septic these kinds of issues get (in my experience). 

 

To pull an internet/meme-tastic "buddha-quote" on you, "Holding on to anger is like grabbing on to burning coal...it only hurts you".   (but you already know that...) 

 

Can't you find it within your generous and magnanimous nature to forgive and forget? After all, us spiritual practitioners, Daoists, etc are supposed to be unattached, unaffected by life's ups and downs. 

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

I found that we have to let go of these slights and insults. If I had a penny for every time someone said or did something to "diss" me, I'd be a millionaire (at least) by now. More we poke at them, the more septic these kinds of issues get (in my experience). 

 

I can ignore many slights, but David Doyle's problem was that he claimed to be a master and above that all, while calling martial practitioners and others immature or without knowledge--referring to me and people like freeform among others. I hold him to a higher standard based on how he presented himself, and he failed.

 

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

To pull an internet/meme-tastic "buddha-quote" on you, "Holding on to anger is like grabbing on to burning coal...it only hurts you".   (but you already know that...) 

 

A platitude, how nice.

 

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Can't you find it within your generous and magnanimous nature to forgive and forget?

 

I do forgive him for being a pompous idiot--but that doesn't mean he is not one.

 

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

After all, us spiritual practitioners, Daoists, etc are supposed to be unattached, unaffected by life's ups and downs. 

 

I separate cultivation from moral philosophy. I do not make them synonymous nor do I need to act any way other than my actual nature, and I do not suffer fools. I can ignore the idiots who send threats or taunt me across threads, but I can't ignore someone who is a hypocrite like David Doyle. 

[dwai]

 

4 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I separate cultivation from moral philosophy. I do not make them synonymous nor do I need to act any way other than my actual nature, and I do not suffer fools. I can ignore the idiots who send threats or taunt me across threads, but I can't ignore someone who is a hypocrite like David Doyle. 

I'm sorry you feel that way. If I had to be that way, I'd just keep reacting to everything life throws at me....which off late has been plenty.

But I've said my bit...be safe my friend..and be well.

[Earl Grey]

20 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. If I had to be that way, I'd just keep reacting to everything life throws at me....which off late has been plenty.

But I've said my bit...be safe my friend..and be well.

FYI “I’m sorry you feel that way” is not an apology, it’s usually an insult that is victim-blaming.

 

Your intention though appears to convey something more along the lines “I feel for you and it sucks you’re upset” so I’ll take it as this and please leave me be. You are willing to make time to understand David but I will say no further and that a few people on this forum have their own challenges right now that have not been considered as well too, and there is nothing more to be said besides that this sensitivity is not extended to them too.

[liminal_luke]

15 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 a few people on this forum have their own challenges right now

 

While some of us are likely more challenged than others, I´d wager we´ve all had some extra stuff thrown at us lately.  I, for one, have not been at my best.  My hope is that we can all give each other a little more slack.

[liminal_luke]

@Earl Grey

 

For what it´s worth Earl, I don´t see you as someone whose "setting up shop" on the forum.  I see you as someone who cares a lot about cultivation, has educated ideas of how people might best go about it, and cares enough to offer guidance to newcomers -- all good things.  I´ve no idea whether or not you´ve offered your teaching services to others here for money or not, but even if you have I don´t see that as a bad thing.  Nothing wrong with offering your time and expertise.  The implication of this thread feels like that you are motivated primarily by money and I just don´t get that feeling from you.  I doubt anybody else does either.

 

If Spotless thinks you are "setting up shop" here on the forum, well, that´s a misperception in my opinion.  He says he´s awakened and I believe him but I guess awakened people can be wrong now and then -- why not?  At the same time, I have great respect for Spotless and his views.  I think he cares about cultivation and wants to share his knowledge and experience, just like you.  It will be a great loss for the forum if he´s truly gone.

[doc benway]

22 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

The problem with being polite is that it doesn't eliminate passive-aggression-- which is harder to deal with than bluntness. 

 

Sometimes, it does take a fair bit of rudeness when individuals like deranged, perverted, and dangerous people come, such as Jeff. That guy was a master manipulator and sociopath whose demeanor would make him welcome at the entrance to Disneyland, but I don't know how any parent would react to him politely being alone with their children and asking him to lock themselves into a male body and him into a female body for example. 

 

It wasn’t rudeness, insults, or name calling that got Jeff to leave. That stuff’s easy to ignore if we choose to. It was communication that got him to leave. People courageously came forward with their personal stories and Jeff got the clear message from real communication

from multiple members that he was no longer welcome.

 

Ad hominem attacks have no value in discourse here IMO, nor do threats. Particularly in digital discourse where people feel little reservation or threat of consequence. It is easy to be blunt and direct without resorting to threats and demeaning and insulting flatulence. 

 

The passive-aggressive bullshit is much tougher to moderate and will be here with or without the keyboard bullies. It’s not a matter of trading one for another. A line needs to be drawn somewhere and where it is drawn here is relatively generous and open- minded. All we can do is strive to communicate with authenticity and directness. Some people are capable and willing to do that more than others.

 

And our interpretation is the most important piece of the puzzle. I’ve accused and been accused of sarcasm or unauthentic posts and often people feel a comment is about them when directed elsewhere. All kinds of miscommunications occur. We need to be responsible for ourselves. With great freedom comes great responsibility. That’s the problem in media today, no responsibility or integrity.

 

[doc benway]

On 4/26/2020 at 9:07 PM, Yueya said:

A couple of quotations from Jung. I know these insights will annoy all parties involved in heated disputation on this forum, but I’m hoping they will be potentially helpful because most people here value inner growth.

 

“But anyone who can stand the animosity of his fellows without being infected by it, and is capable at the same time of examining it critically, cannot help discovering that they are possessed. It is, however, more advantageous and more to the point to subject to the most rigorous scrutiny one’s own moods and their changing influence on one’s personality. To know where the other person makes a mistake is of little value. It only becomes interesting when you know where you make the mistake, for then you can do something about it. What we can improve in others is of doubtful utility as a rule, if, indeed, it has any effect at all.”

 

“Today humanity, as never before, is split into two apparently irreconcilable halves. The psychological rule says that when an inner situation is not made conscious, it happens outside, as fate. That is to say, when the individual remains undivided and does not become conscious of his inner opposite, the world must perforce act out the conflict and be torn into opposing halves.”

 

Jung does not offer any quick fixes for this. I know from personal experience recognising some of these opposites within me (aspects of my shadow self) is hugely confronting. The last major revelation that life forced me to acknowledge about myself took me over a decade to work through. It tore me apart. I wouldn’t wish it on anybody. Yet working through it has proved enormously enriching for me.  What Jung does say is that ‘wholeness’ means recognising these warring forces within oneself and voluntarily taking on the burden.  Otherwise, if one is destined to descend into his deep pit of inner knowing, it will catch one unawares. He says it’s better to go about it with precautions, rather than falling backwards into a hole. I definitely fell backward into this hole.

 

I’ll give a very simple example of what I mean by projecting one’s shadow: In the current ‘China’ discussion, a couple of people speaking out the loudest against the totalitarianism of the CCP because of its liquidating of dissent are adamant that two Dao Bum members who oppose them should be banned. Although they abhor the liquidating of dissent when others do it, they are seemingly unconscious of their own similar totalitarian desires.

 

Of course, there’s nothing wrong with developing and voicing moral judgement, just be aware that all we humans have the same underlying psyche. These problems don’t only exist out there in others, they originate with our own inner makeup. We are all like this. Jung made the observation that our human psyche is energised by a complex array of opposing forces. He sees our psyche as a system of energy flows (qi flows), and energies can only flow where there’s polar difference.

 

(In writing this post I'm aware that I'm taking on some of the burden of Dao Bums disputation and possibly the animosity of certain members. It's something I do willingly, though not without reluctance, because I value this site. Also I'm interested to see how my perspective is received. That way I potentially gain new insight into myself.)

 

 

 

For me, your perspective is spot on.

No surprise as that is precisely the path I’ve chosen - unflinching, uncompromising awareness of me. My best friend is a harsh, filter-less mirror and I love him and am better for it. 

 

What other worthwhile path to spirituality is there?

 

And I’ll also acknowledge that there’s a time and place for everything. We need to work through things with the tools and demeanor we’ve got. Not everyone is ready or interested in cracking themselves wide open. As you said, when we look deeply enough we will necessarily find things we don’t want to or aren’t ready to face. Very important to have real support for that to whatever extent is possible. I think it greatly enhances our chances of success.

[Earl Grey]

6 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

@Earl Grey

 

For what it´s worth Earl, I don´t see you as someone whose "setting up shop" on the forum.  I see you as someone who cares a lot about cultivation, has educated ideas of how people might best go about it, and cares enough to offer guidance to newcomers -- all good things.  I´ve no idea whether or not you´ve offered your teaching services to others here for money or not, but even if you have I don´t see that as a bad thing.  Nothing wrong with offering your time and expertise.  The implication of this thread feels like that you are motivated primarily by money and I just don´t get that feeling from you.  I doubt anybody else does either.

 

If Spotless thinks you are "setting up shop" here on the forum, well, that´s a misperception in my opinion.  He says he´s awakened and I believe him but I guess awakened people can be wrong now and then -- why not?  At the same time, I have great respect for Spotless and his views.  I think he cares about cultivation and wants to share his knowledge and experience, just like you.  It will be a great loss for the forum if he´s truly gone.

 

The implication of this thread feels like that you are motivated primarily by money and I just don´t get that feeling from you.  I doubt anybody else does either.

 

Unfortunately, the very thread where he posted and disappeared before he supposedly left was one where Spotless said that that's what he thought about me in no ambiguous terms, and was supported by Silent Thunder and Steve in response, referring to me without naming me as a "sheriff" preying on others and their spiritual seeking or claiming that my way was the correct and only way. All totally untrue about how I operate here. 

 

As far as you and Steve, who clarified elsewhere that you didn't share this view, you can imagine how when Spotless said he was indeed referring to me how much of a slap in the face that was (and Silent Thunder even more so). This was why I posted the Blake poem A Poison Tree.

 

I see you as someone who cares a lot about cultivation, has educated ideas of how people might best go about it, and cares enough to offer guidance to newcomers -- all good things.

 

This is indeed how I do operate.

 

It will be a great loss for the forum if he´s truly gone.

 

Anyway, I don't think David Doyle and his copyrighted posts here are going anywhere. He will return at some point in time and he will stay in his own lane as I stay in my own lane--which was supposedly how things operated until he began starting the bullshit in the bans thread and then the setting up shop thread. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Earl Grey

[ilumairen]

 

Quote

i don’t know what else to say...many of you who have been bickering here I hold in high regard — are serious practitioners and knowledgeable in your own traditions/areas of expertise. Why then such pettiness? 
 

 

In my experience sometimes what could easily be written off as "pettiness" owing to what amounts to a surface appearance has much "deeper roots" - which the individual may either be finding their way towards or actively working on.

 

Which is only meant to serve as a sort of answer to your question, which I suspect was actually rhetorical.

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by ilumairen
dang autocorrect made pettiness into prettiness

[ilumairen]

20 hours ago, dwai said:

I found that we have to let go of these slights and insults. If I had a penny for every time someone said or did something to "diss" me, I'd be a millionaire (at least) by now. More we poke at them, the more septic these kinds of issues get (in my experience). 

 

May I ask some questions which may seem rather pointed, but which I would very much like you to consider?

 

Why condemn what you see as pettiness towards Spotless,  and excuse what was presented as pettiness of spotless - saying such pettiness must be let go?

 

Why chastise the recipients of pettiness for returning the pettiness? And was spotless also thusly chastised and offered the same platitude(s)?

 

What determines what is acceptable, forgivable, dismissible, and/or easily over looked, and what isn't?

 

Why?

 

Edit to add: As I'm discovering how easily I'm misunderstood here, let me be clear this is not intended with any disrespect, but an open sort of curiosity.

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by ilumairen

[dwai]

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

May I ask some questions which may seem rather pointed, but which I would very much like you to consider?

Of course  

 

 

 

4 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

Why condemn what you see as pettiness towards Spotless,  and excuse what was presented as pettiness of spotless - saying such pettiness must be let go?

my original message was in response to what seemed akin to wolves packing up to attack a prey...(only an analogy, not calling anyone either wolves or prey). I've noticed this quite often on online fora -- people seem to get 'inspired' (and I use that word loosely here) by one vocal/active person to start picking on someone who's not really around to defend themselves. This is classic bullying behavior (ganging up) - I think the technical term for it is "mobbing". 

 

I fail to see how that kind of behavior is conducive to any civilized discourse, which is why we are here, aren't we? 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, ilumairen said:

Why chastise the recipients of pettiness for returning the pettiness? And was spotless also thusly chastised and offered the same platitude(s)?

I actually saw Spotless' post which seems to be the source of rancor here. I don't think that he was targeting Earl, who took it personally. It seemed more like a diatribe against self-appointed 'sheriffs' (I believe that was a term used in that thread).

 

 

 

1

4 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

What determines what is acceptable, forgivable, dismissible, and/or easily over looked, and what isn't?

It is personal opinion unless we keep seeing repeated patterns of actions that seem to vitiate the 'fish tank' so to speak. I don't take this forum (or any form of social media) that seriously or personally for the most part, so my 'sun won't rise or set' depending on how or what someone calls me here. I find 'mobbing' very distasteful -- having experienced it firsthand in real life when I was teenager (in that case it was physical).  It reflects poorly on those perpetrating the 'mobbing' imho...(which is why civilized people dislike gangs too). 

I frankly expect better from people, especially spiritual cultivators. I am all for a good discussion or debate when it doesn't drift off into ad-hominem attacks etc. But I guess we each have to figure out (or maybe have already done so) why we come to a forum like this.

 

Is it for camaraderie? 

Is it to grow and share?

is it to learn from others/others' experiences?

Or is it something else? Feel better about oneself by putting someone else down? Feel better by ganging up against an individual just because you don't like them or based on some imagined slight? 

 

How we react to others speaks a great deal about us. Do we deal with compassion or with anger? Do we hit back or let it go? Life is complicated as it is, and I prefer to pick and choose my battles -- mostly they are within...and certainly not worth picking one on an internet forum, where 90% of the people hide behind handles and anonymity. 

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, ilumairen said:

Why?

I think I answered that above. 

4 hours ago, ilumairen said:

Edit to add: As I'm discovering how easily I'm misunderstood here, let me be clear this is not intended with any disrespect, but an open sort of curiosity.

 

Okay...understood.  

[Earl Grey]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

I don't think that he was targeting Earl, who took it personally. It seemed more like a diatribe against self-appointed 'sheriffs' (I believe that was a term used in that thread).

It is personal opinion unless we keep seeing repeated patterns of actions that seem to vitiate the 'fish tank' so to speak.

Okay...understood.  

 

Dwai, here is why it was unambiguously aimed at me--I was directly named here.

 

On 4/13/2020 at 7:23 AM, Spotless said:

 

I recently posted a new topic regarding "setting up shop on DB" - later i "hide" it and re-established it to be in General Discussion. 

On the original post, the first reply was an incendiary snide response from Virtue to which you Earl Grey "like(d)".

 

I don't think Trunk intended this to be a topic for the adults in the room to engage in ever more tantrum and testosterone. It is obvious who I was talking about.

 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

Just now, Earl Grey said:

 

Dwai, here is why it was unambiguously aimed at me--I was directly named here.

 

 

 

To show emphasis: 

 

On 4/13/2020 at 3:18 AM, Spotless said:

Thank you Trunk for what i see as a good list regarding cleanup.

 

Some of those removed were enablers - they supported some of those removed and some of those that are still here. 

And they have contributed heavily to the reactive and childish low sewer mind that they repeatedly engaged in often on behalf of their pals.

 

For those that have set-up shop here and are still very much here - several of those removed have been petitioned here by them to bring them back. 

 

I would put both Nungali and Virtue in that camp - and they were in a camp and enablers - bringing them back would only restrengthen that frat club.

 

 

 

On 4/13/2020 at 6:20 AM, Earl Grey said:

Why not name names instead of the passive-aggressive approach as to who has “set up shop” and is part of this “frat club” engaged in the “reactive and the childish lower sewer mind” so that we can be clear as to who you are talking about?

 

[freeform]

@dwai I don't think you answered @ilumairen questions... or at least you evaded the main point.

 

In response to:

 

 

 

1

18 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, ilumairen said:

Why condemn what you see as pettiness towards Spotless,  and excuse what was presented as pettiness of spotless - saying such pettiness must be let go?

 

Your answer was basically: "because he was ganged up on in that post".

 

But you missed the other part of the question.

 

You've been part of a thread where Spotless was repeatedly telling me how much of a foolish newbie I am - repeating it over and over and over - avoiding any actual human discussion, while I was politely taking my time (which is precious to me) to steer the conversation back to the subject (seeing as I consider myself very much a beginner anyway).

 

I always approach every interaction offering an explicit level of respect... I'm happy to shake off any disrespect returned... even a few times... But a repeated pattern of disrespect coupled with arrogance and no real value returned (in the form of actual discussion) - then I'm afraid the old adage of "play stupid games - win stupid prizes" comes into effect. 

 

This isn't a reactionary thing - it's very much conscious and purposeful. Just like when a belligerent drunk keeps bothering you while you're talking with friends - smile and divert once, twice, three times maybe... but on the fourth - it's time to be 'escorted out'.

 

 

 

 

1

13 hours ago, dwai said:

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, dwai said:

It is personal opinion unless we keep seeing repeated patterns of actions that seem to vitiate the 'fish tank' so to speak.

 

Precisely.

 

You, like the good sober friend, tried to diffuse the situation and excuse his actions - "everyone has an off day".

 

Ok but repeated "off days"?

 

And not just with me?

 

And somehow these off days only seem to happen when he's not being kowtowed to like the 'Awakened Master' he portrays himself to be?

 

So to me, the implied answer to the question of "why excuse what was presented as pettiness of spotless" - your answer seems to be: "because he's my friend".

 

Which is fine. And kind (to your friend).

 

13 hours ago, dwai said:

I frankly expect better from people, especially spiritual cultivators. I am all for a good discussion or debate when it doesn't drift off into ad-hominem attacks etc.

 

And does that not apply to your friend's actions??

 

What if your friend isn't just a cultivator but an Awakened Master?

 

How would you treat an Awakened Master friend's ad-hominem attacks?

 

Or would you excuse his behaviour because he's a friend?

 

Your actions make the answer clear.

 

I applaud your loyalty to your friend.

 

But can you really blame others when they call out his obvious arrogant pomposity?

 

Whatever is going on in his life is not an excuse for his behaviour. You aren't taking anyone's life circumstances into account in your response. Master Spotless certainly isn't.

 

Of course, I hope he and his family recover fully. And there is absolutely no ill will towards him as a person. I'm very much of the opinion that a person and their behaviour are two separate things. The person always gets respect and kindness... But behaviour is handled differently.

 

In fact, much of the content of his posts seems reasonable and given a normal discussion (rather than a demand for supplication), I would probably agree with at least part of what he has to say about cultivation.

 

But play stupid status games, behave arrogantly and disrespectfully - then don't be surprised about the consequences!

 

And equally - myopically defend and down-play this sort of behaviour - then don't be surprised at the response.

Edited April 29, 2020 by freeform