Forum member "spotless". Missing messages.

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

@dwai I don't think you answered @ilumairen questions... or at least you evaded the main point.

 

In response to:

 

Your answer was basically: "because he was ganged up on in that post".

 

But you missed the other part of the question.

 

You've been part of a thread where Spotless was repeatedly telling me how much of a foolish newbie I am - repeating it over and over and over - avoiding any actual human discussion, while I was politely taking my time (which is precious to me) to steer the conversation back to the subject (seeing as I consider myself very much a beginner anyway).

 

I always approach every interaction offering an explicit level of respect... I'm happy to shake off any disrespect returned... even a few times... But a repeated pattern of disrespect coupled with arrogance and no real value returned (in the form of actual discussion) - then I'm afraid the old adage of "play stupid games - win stupid prizes" comes into effect. 

 

This isn't a reactionary thing - it's very much conscious and purposeful. Just like when a belligerent drunk keeps bothering you while you're talking with friends - smile and divert once, twice, three times maybe... but on the fourth - it's time to be 'escorted out'.

 

 

Precisely.

 

You, like the good sober friend, tried to diffuse the situation and excuse his actions - "everyone has an off day".

 

Ok but repeated "off days"?

 

And not just with me?

 

And somehow these off days only seem to happen when he's not being kowtowed to like the 'Awakened Master' he portrays himself to be?

 

So to me, the implied answer to the question of "why excuse what was presented as pettiness of spotless" - your answer seems to be: "because he's my friend".

 

Which is fine. And kind (to your friend).

 

 

And does that not apply to your friend's actions??

 

What if your friend isn't just a cultivator but an Awakened Master?

 

How would you treat an Awakened Master friend's ad-hominem attacks?

 

Or would you excuse his behaviour because he's a friend?

 

Your actions make the answer clear.

 

I applaud your loyalty to your friend.

 

But can you really blame others when they call out his obvious arrogant pomposity?

 

Whatever is going on in his life is not an excuse for his behaviour. You aren't taking anyone's life circumstances into account in your response. Master Spotless certainly isn't.

 

Of course, I hope he and his family recover fully. And there is absolutely no ill will towards him as a person. I'm very much of the opinion that a person and their behaviour are two separate things. The person always gets respect and kindness... But behaviour is handled differently.

 

In fact, much of the content of his posts seems reasonable and given a normal discussion (rather than a demand for supplication), I would probably agree with at least part of what he has to say about cultivation.

 

But play stupid status games, behave arrogantly and disrespectfully - then don't be surprised about the consequences!

 

And equally - myopically defend and down-play this sort of behaviour - then don't be surprised at the response.

Let us hope we get an actual response from him and not a platitude or sneaky justification that appeals to the so-called more moral self a cultivator is supposed to have in a not so obvious attempt at control and manipulation. A kind of hat trick that changes the conversation to be “How could you even dare question him or not put up with bullshit when you are supposed to be a cultivator and mature? Tsk tsk! Anyway he’s my friend who says he’s a master so I’ll excuse it but when he dishes out the bullshit, I’ll encourage it and tell you that you’re not evolved enough to appreciate it!”

 

🤡👻💩: in the jovial spirit of bullshit!

[freeform]

45 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

attempt at control and manipulation

I don’t think Dwai is attempting to be sneaky or manipulative - he’s just defending a friend... And he probably doesn’t realise the double standards he’s using.
 

In my eyes, blind loyalty to a friend is far more excusable and understandable than the silly status games, self-importance and arrogance I’ve seen from spotless.

[Earl Grey]

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

I don’t think Dwai is attempting to be sneaky or manipulative - he’s just defending a friend... And he probably doesn’t realise the double standards he’s using.
 

In my eyes, blind loyalty to a friend is far more excusable and understandable than the silly status games, self-importance and arrogance I’ve seen from spotless.

I should probably clarify that it can be a sneaky measure for some, but not necessarily dwai—though I’m a bit suspect at this point because of the misdirection and double standards, so I can’t rule out the possibility entirely. I will at least give him the benefit of a doubt even if that was not extended beyond his loyalty to David Doyle.

[dwai]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

@dwai I don't think you answered @ilumairen questions... or at least you evaded the main point.

 

In response to:

 

Your answer was basically: "because he was ganged up on in that post".

 

But you missed the other part of the question.

 

You've been part of a thread where Spotless was repeatedly telling me how much of a foolish newbie I am - repeating it over and over and over - avoiding any actual human discussion, while I was politely taking my time (which is precious to me) to steer the conversation back to the subject (seeing as I consider myself very much a beginner anyway).

Agreed that was wrong on his part. That’s why I chalked it down to an off day . 

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I always approach every interaction offering an explicit level of respect... I'm happy to shake off any disrespect returned... even a few times... But a repeated pattern of disrespect coupled with arrogance and no real value returned (in the form of actual discussion) - then I'm afraid the old adage of "play stupid games - win stupid prizes" comes into effect. 

I’ve seen that about you and it’s a sign of your own maturity, which I applaud. 

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

 

This isn't a reactionary thing - it's very much conscious and purposeful. Just like when a belligerent drunk keeps bothering you while you're talking with friends - smile and divert once, twice, three times maybe... but on the fourth - it's time to be 'escorted out'.

The thing is, escorted out is one thing, ganging up is another. Fact is, none of us world any power here. So it either becomes a collaborative environment or a combative environment. It is up to us to make it one way or another. 

2 hours ago, freeform said:

Precisely.

 

You, like the good sober friend, tried to diffuse the situation and excuse his actions - "everyone has an off day".

 

Ok but repeated "off days"?

if you consider the likes of gsmaster and the other trolls like gatito being recipients of the ire of many level headed bums, then you have have something of a pattern. Otherwise it is only a ‘personal feud’ — which is wrong. Whether we choose to handle it like adults or not is what remains to be seen. 

 

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

And somehow these off days only seem to happen when he's not being kowtowed to like the 'Awakened Master' he portrays himself to be?

Then it becomes a learning experience for him, and for others too.  

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

So to me, the implied answer to the question of "why excuse what was presented as pettiness of spotless" - your answer seems to be: "because he's my friend".

 

Which is fine. And kind (to your friend).

 

 

And does that not apply to your friend's actions??

 

What if your friend isn't just a cultivator but an Awakened Master?

 

How would you treat an Awakened Master friend's ad-hominem attacks?

 

Or would you excuse his behaviour because he's a friend?

 

Your actions make the answer clear.

 

I applaud your loyalty to your friend.

 

But can you really blame others when they call out his obvious arrogant pomposity?

 

Whatever is going on in his life is not an excuse for his behaviour. You aren't taking anyone's life circumstances into account in your response. Master Spotless certainly isn't.

 Whether we consider someone to be awakened or a master is entirely up to us. And yes, even ‘awakened people are people too. Maybe less susceptible to impulsive/compulsive behaviors than non-awakened ones.

 

Ive had my share of disagreements with spotless and many others too, over the years. But it never resulted in ‘public stoning’ style retribution that’s on display here. 
 

Two wrongs don’t make a right — as that saying goes. Two wrongs are just two wrongs. 
 

Anyway, my intention here was call out what I felt was unpalatable behavior. People are of course free to behave however their little hearts desire. 

 

2 hours ago, freeform said:

Of course, I hope he and his family recover fully. And there is absolutely no ill will towards him as a person. I'm very much of the opinion that a person and their behaviour are two separate things. The person always gets respect and kindness... But behaviour is handled differently.

 

In fact, much of the content of his posts seems reasonable and given a normal discussion (rather than a demand for supplication), I would probably agree with at least part of what he has to say about cultivation.

 

But play stupid status games, behave arrogantly and disrespectfully - then don't be surprised about the consequences!

 

And equally - myopically defend and down-play this sort of behaviour - then don't be surprised at the response.

I think I’ve already responded to what my issue has been with ganging up threads such as these. 

[dwai]

18 minutes ago, freeform said:

I don’t think Dwai is attempting to be sneaky or manipulative - he’s just defending a friend... And he probably doesn’t realise the double standards he’s using.
 

In my eyes, blind loyalty to a friend is far more excusable and understandable than the silly status games, self-importance and arrogance I’ve seen from spotless.

I don’t see any double standards in calling out public stoning and ganging up against any individual. People are welcome to draw any conclusions from this that they want to — I can see some people already have.  
 

[Earl Grey]

38 minutes ago, dwai said:

I don’t see any double standards in calling out public stoning and ganging up against any individual. People are welcome to draw any conclusions from this that they want to — I can see some people already have.  
 

Except that is what David attempted to do in a passive-aggressive manner when he mentioned my name and you still dismiss as him not referring to me.

[freeform]

34 minutes ago, dwai said:

The thing is, escorted out is one thing, ganging up is another. Fact is, none of us world any power here. So it either becomes a collaborative environment or a combative environment. It is up to us to make it one way or another.

 

Call it a collaborative 'escorting out'

 

I don't think he was 'ganged up on'. That wasn't my impression. He attacked (in a sneaky, passive-aggressive way) and was called out - bith by the people he was attacking, and by other members that saw double-standards in what he was espousing. Play stupid games - win stupid prizes.

 

And in my case, the seeds he sowed in his interactions with me just so happened to flower in the ripe, nutrient-rich manure of that post.

 

 

[freeform]

46 minutes ago, dwai said:

I don’t see any double standards in calling out public stoning and ganging up against any individual.

 

Your friend's post was an attempt to discredit other members... which was supported by you... now that your friend's own behaviour is being called out, suddenly it shouldn't be supported - and should be called 'ganging up on' instead.

 

That's a double standard.

 

An understandable one - because he's your friend... but a double standard none the less.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

Except that is what David attempted to do in a passive-aggressive manner when he mentioned my name and you still dismiss as him not referring to me.

I think he only initially pointed out that you "liked" someone else's comment after you responded to his OP. When I first read that OP, It seemed he was ranting about some of the "immortal sages and all-powerful masters (of gas)" who had come to roost here...and perhaps there are many others like me who read that post and felt the same way. 

 

But I think the point being missed is that this is not about just a single instance, but a pattern of behaviors that are becoming far too frequent here off late (and I'm not narrowing it down to any one person, just to be clear). 

 

Someone else's 'bad behavior' doesn't give me carte-blanche to behave in a similar manner. That was on full display with GSMaster's inciting flame-wars or Starjumper for that matter. What happened as a result? Otherwise productive members like Nungali got banned too! Just because they couldn't resist the urge to retaliate. 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Your friend's post was an attempt to discredit other members... which was supported by you... now that your friend's own behaviour is being called out, suddenly it shouldn't be supported - and should be called 'ganging up on' instead.

 

That's a double standard.

 

An understandable one - because he's your friend... but a double standard none the less.

Pray tell me where I "supported" any attempt to discredit other members?  

 

[Earl Grey]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

I think he only initially pointed out that you "liked" someone else's comment after you responded to his OP.

It was obvious enough for the others to comment on it and see what he was saying—now you sound like you’re really cherry-picking facts because it’s your friend.

[Earl Grey]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

Pray tell me where I "supported" any attempt to discredit other members?  

 

Exactly what you’re doing here.

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Exactly what you’re doing here.

If you feel that way, its your prerogative. I didn't gang up on anyone, unless you consider me a gang all by myself  

[Earl Grey]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

If you feel that way, its your prerogative. I didn't gang up on anyone, unless you consider me a gang all by myself  

You’re starting to sound like the WMPs who keep saying “If you say so” in spite of overwhelming facts against their claims as they ignore evidence. You’re also not answering questions poised by me, freeform, and Ilumairen. This is now what you will consider “ganging up” but at this point it’s because you are being annoying by disregarding everything out of blind loyalty to David Doyle and double-standards.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Earl Grey

[freeform]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

Pray tell me where I "supported" any attempt to discredit other members?  

You ‘liking’ and supporting Spotless’ rant. 
 

Supporting him when he’s being called out for his arrogance etc.

 

It doesn’t really matter - I don’t think you’re purposely trying to stir things up or gain status or anything like that. I think you mean well and I have no bone to pick with you Dwai.

[dwai]

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

You ‘liking’ and supporting Spotless’ rant. 
 

Supporting him when he’s being called out for his arrogance etc.

 

It doesn’t really matter - I don’t think you’re purposely trying to stir things up or gain status or anything like that.

I'm very selective in what I "like".  

 

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

I think you mean well and I have no bone to pick with you Dwai.

And neither do I with you. I think you're a good person and have a lot to share (even when I don't agree with things you have to say). In fact, other than a few trolls (who're now gone), I think everyone else is also good and has a lot to share. Be well...stay safe, stay healthy and more jing/qi/shen to you  

[freeform]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

more jing/qi/shen to you  

oh god - no more! Please!
 

My partner is already fed up from not being able to get to sleep because of the constant Yang Qi buzz! 

[dwai]

16 minutes ago, freeform said:

oh god - no more! Please!
 

My partner is already fed up from not being able to get to sleep because of the constant Yang Qi buzz! 

There's always emptiness...more is better  

[moment]

On 4/26/2020 at 8:08 PM, Earl Grey said:

 

The problem with being polite is that it doesn't eliminate passive-aggression-- which is harder to deal with than bluntness. 

 

Sometimes, it does take a fair bit of rudeness when individuals like deranged, perverted, and dangerous people come.

 

I see that there has been a name elimination here. OK, there is validity to that. From now on he will be "he who shall not be named". The Voldemort of the sexual manipulation cult.

Edited May 18, 2020 by moment

[idiot_stimpy]

I hope Spotless is ok.

[qofq]

I've read this forum almost every day for like 8 years.  I've seen a lot.  I don't say much.

 

Here's my honest take.

 

It was only a matter of time before spotless caught the karmic blowback of his method of sharing.  

 

None of the highly skilled teachers I've met and trained with would be in this type of situation.   Mainly because they don't make a show, but also because they don't compete.   Yet I know from personal experience the frustrations of trying to share with people who aren't ready or willing to hear.  People tend to go to great lengths not to hear.  Jesus for example.   And after all the training and sacrifices and suffering necessary to cultivate to a high degree, I don't fault teachers who have little patience for "explaining themselves".   

 

Perhaps a forum like this is just not an appropriate place for the profoundly attained. 

 

yet ideas of high and low are to be abandoned ultimately so...

 

Attempting to be ever desire-less we plod along.   

 

 

Also it really has appeared to me that Earl-Grey tends to behave like a self appointed sherif.  

Little too attached to the competition and drama of it all.  

 

But you know.  

 

No big whoop.  

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by qofq

[Zork]

@qofq Sportless isn't awakened despite what the claims and i bet that he hasn't gone through the processes he claims. I am not certain but i have heard that in buddhism there is "a false awakening" phase that the practitioner thinks/deceives himself that he is awakened but he is only half way through.

That means that Sportless has some advancement towards awakening but not the whole package and certainly not the authority to teach this stuff.

For example, If i tried to describe to you how to climb a mountain that i have not climbed the whole way to the summit, how would that sound?

 

[freeform]

 

So you're saying we crucified Jesus!?

 

I have nothing against Spotless as a person. I hope that he's ok and that his family is ok.

 

To me, behaviour and Self are two different things.

 

For me, there is no conflict between respecting a person and denouncing their behaviour.

 

2 hours ago, Zork said:

Sportless isn't awakened despite what the claims and i bet that he hasn't gone through the processes he claims.

 

I don't know if he's lying. I feel like he's not.

 

I'm genuinely impressed by his level of dedication to his art.

 

But awakening is not rare.

 

It's quite common actually - except in most people it's short-lived and accompanied with some form of mental illness. A common cause for awakening is experiencing extreme pain (physical or emotional), extreme shock or being in extreme danger. As long as you don't leave your body - a certain stillness befalls you - emotionality stops and instead you become very peaceful, clear and alert - thoughts become the exception instead of the norm, and the separation between self and other - me and not me dissolves. And then you get chucked in an ambulance and pumped full of opioids

 

I think it was Cat on this forum, years ago, posted an account of someone experiencing awakening at the moment of being mauled by a lion. As he saw his fate, he surrendered and suddenly a blissful awakening took place. (He wasn't killed)

 

Awakening is not the goal of spiritual practice. In fact, you can be permanently 'awakened' and still be a malevolent, deluded prick... Osho comes to mind. Several other gurus come to mind.

 

In a genuine, long-established, living lineage, awakening is one step along a very long path. It is not the goal. It isn't even necessarily considered as an achievement - it can happen by accident - and that's where it's considered a mistake.

 

It has its place - but when it arises out of place it can cause issues.

 

Serious issues.

 

And often they are issues based around this sort of 'Jesus' complex.

 

One's state feels whole - no separation - nowhere to go.

 

Everything seems perfect.

 

Everything takes on an air of benevolence.

 

Even your desire to sleep with your student's wife seems perfectly benevolent.

 

Try to tell an 'Awakened' person that despite how it feels, they've not 'arrived'. This isn't 'it'. There's a lot more to transform... And usually, you'll witness a sort of uncharacteristic mental and emotional thrashing about and all sorts of conceptual gymnastics that attempt to dispute what you've got to say.

 

I've seen this over and over and over at my teacher's clinic.

 

I've seen dozens of genuinely awakened individuals come (or more often brought in) to be treated. Yes, their 'awakened' state is real - but everything else is unbalanced. Their health, their behaviour and their base drives tend to be completely out of whack - but they can't see it, because to them everything is perfect. It's just their families, their students and their friends that have to suffer with this.

 

In the west, these people would either be sectioned or become gurus

 

This is why in genuine, long-running traditions it is not a race to get to this state. In fact, my teacher often actively delays this state from arising in students - for many years even. Just so the student has time to develop and transform in the correct direction before this state derails their training (for a time).

 

Awakening seems completely amazing, mysterious and a 'proof' of practical spirituality - and as a bonus, it is a reasonably low bar to jump - so in the West, we've conflated it to be the 'be-all and end-all' of spiritual achievement - simply because it's something reasonably achievable.

 

But awakening is considered the start of the spiritual journey in most long-running traditions. And it is usually preceded with a very long period of preparation - preparation of the 'causes' for the unfoldment of the 'effect' after awakening begins. Premature awakening means you have to muddle through - and for most people, in most situations, it's more of a disability than a blessing.

 

It's different in a monastic setting as it's a very controlled environment that is designed to create the correct causes by simply following the day to day activities of a monk. Because there are no causes for negative karma to flourish, only the positive karmic seeds flourish and so dedicated people often achieve a lot in a monastic setting.

 

But use monastic techniques that you've read about in books or learned in bits and pieces from teachers that have learned them in bits and pieces - then apply these techniques with discipline and dedication - then yes you'll see some results - but you're setting yourself up for a very difficult life.

[anshino23]

16 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

So you're saying we crucified Jesus!?

 

I have nothing against Spotless as a person. I hope that he's ok and that his family is ok.

 

To me, behaviour and Self are two different things.

 

For me, there is no conflict between respecting a person and denouncing their behaviour.

 

 

I don't know if he's lying. I feel like he's not.

 

I'm genuinely impressed by his level of dedication to his art.

 

But awakening is not rare.

 

It's quite common actually - except in most people it's short-lived and accompanied with some form of mental illness. A common cause for awakening is experiencing extreme pain (physical or emotional), extreme shock or being in extreme danger. As long as you don't leave your body - a certain stillness befalls you - emotionality stops and instead you become very peaceful, clear and alert - thoughts become the exception instead of the norm, and the separation between self and other - me and not me dissolves. And then you get chucked in an ambulance and pumped full of opioids

 

I think it was Cat on this forum, years ago, posted an account of someone experiencing awakening at the moment of being mauled by a lion. As he saw his fate, he surrendered and suddenly a blissful awakening took place. (He wasn't killed)

 

Awakening is not the goal of spiritual practice. In fact, you can be permanently 'awakened' and still be a malevolent, deluded prick... Osho comes to mind. Several other gurus come to mind.

 

In a genuine, long-established, living lineage, awakening is one step along a very long path. It is not the goal. It isn't even necessarily considered as an achievement - it can happen by accident - and that's where it's considered a mistake.

 

It has its place - but when it arises out of place it can cause issues.

 

Serious issues.

 

And often they are issues based around this sort of 'Jesus' complex.

 

One's state feels whole - no separation - nowhere to go.

 

Everything seems perfect.

 

Everything takes on an air of benevolence.

 

Even your desire to sleep with your student's wife seems perfectly benevolent.

 

Try to tell an 'Awakened' person that despite how it feels, they've not 'arrived'. This isn't 'it'. There's a lot more to transform... And usually, you'll witness a sort of uncharacteristic mental and emotional thrashing about and all sorts of conceptual gymnastics that attempt to dispute what you've got to say.

 

I've seen this over and over and over at my teacher's clinic.

 

I've seen dozens of genuinely awakened individuals come (or more often brought in) to be treated. Yes, their 'awakened' state is real - but everything else is unbalanced. Their health, their behaviour and their base drives tend to be completely out of whack - but they can't see it, because to them everything is perfect. It's just their families, their students and their friends that have to suffer with this.

 

In the west, these people would either be sectioned or become gurus

 

This is why in genuine, long-running traditions it is not a race to get to this state. In fact, my teacher often actively delays this state from arising in students - for many years even. Just so the student has time to develop and transform in the correct direction before this state derails their training (for a time).

 

Awakening seems completely amazing, mysterious and a 'proof' of practical spirituality - and as a bonus, it is a reasonably low bar to jump - so in the West, we've conflated it to be the 'be-all and end-all' of spiritual achievement - simply because it's something reasonably achievable.

 

But awakening is considered the start of the spiritual journey in most long-running traditions. And it is usually preceded with a very long period of preparation - preparation of the 'causes' for the unfoldment of the 'effect' after awakening begins. Premature awakening means you have to muddle through - and for most people, in most situations, it's more of a disability than a blessing.

 

It's different in a monastic setting as it's a very controlled environment that is designed to create the correct causes by simply following the day to day activities of a monk. Because there are no causes for negative karma to flourish, only the positive karmic seeds flourish and so dedicated people often achieve a lot in a monastic setting.

 

But use monastic techniques that you've read about in books or learned in bits and pieces from teachers that have learned them in bits and pieces - then apply these techniques with discipline and dedication - then yes you'll see some results - but you're setting yourself up for a very difficult life.

 

This is such a profound lesson. Thank you for sharing it. I wish all would accept it, but it requires a lot of humility and to admit "I don't know", even when you feel like you do. I recall being taught the same through the story of the Buddha within the Mahayana. There is always resistance of ignorance towards truth. For example, when the Buddha ate food after awakening to the Middle Path, the ascetics who followed him thought he had gone astray and left him. Many sages of the past have also had such an experience - they cling so strongly to a notion, an idea, and unless that is relinquished, it's very difficult to get out of as you point out, and can derail the entire Path, and maybe even get you into lots of trouble. 

[freeform]

27 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

I wish all would accept it, but it requires a lot of humility and to admit "I don't know", even when you feel like you do. 

 

Almost impossible.

 

I certainly don't think my posts would do anything like that.

 

This is the teacher's role.

 

I remember being of the opinion that lineages are much like 'Big Tobacco' or 'Big Oil' - self-interested groups aimed at perpetuating their monopoly over secret knowledge and only offering bits 'at a price'.

 

But as I've come to experience such groups directly - I've noticed that yes - in some cases it's exactly that. Teachers simply coasting along, using their 'family' name as a way of charging exorbitant fees for training.

 

But I've also found 'living' lineages that keep alight a kind of spiritual flame that helps guide those on the path. It is the wisdom of such lineages that tells you - no, you must wash floors for 2 years before starting training... or yes, you're on the cusp of awakening, but here is a practice that will stop that for a while - because you need to develop other characteristics that will be much harder to develop after 'awakening'.

 

There's a fine line between a 'living' lineage and a 'dead' one. And it's hard to tell the difference. The key is the transmission of that 'guiding light'... if you're able to tune into it, you feel connected to something much bigger - something beyond life and death.

 

And when you find such a lineage you must find the humility to surrender your 'self'. Like the guy that surrendered at the moment of being mauled by a lion. This isn't a surrendering of reason or of scepticism (my teachers welcome this). It's the development of a sort of energetic humility - a kind of emptiness of 'self' to allow for Self to arise - through guidance and support.