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[silent thunder]

One of my dearest and closest life long friends was raised Christian Scientist.

 

I've witnessed him literally will away injuries in the moment, after a serious crash on the Mountain snowboarding.

It certainly has worked for him throughout his life, even though he's not any form of practicing devotee... the concepts as he absorbed them, are profoundly impressive to witness...

 

Strikes me as rather a Gnostic approach.

 

 

[SirPalomides]

There also accounts by ex-Christian Science members watching their loved ones die horribly from curable diseases because of the sect's opposition to any medical treatment apart from their own methods.

[moment]

56 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

One of my dearest and closest life long friends was raised Christian Scientist.

 

I've witnessed him literally will away injuries in the moment, after a serious crash on the Mountain snowboarding.

It certainly has worked for him throughout his life, even though he's not any form of practicing devotee... the concepts as he absorbed them, are profoundly impressive to witness...

 

Strikes me as rather a Gnostic approach.

 

 

 

I have heard many examples of that.  The founder, Mary Baker Eddy, supposedly raised from the dead. On the other hand, the woman who was raising me at the time, broke her middle finger and refused to set it. Her finger swolled up to about four times its' normal size and stayed that way for twenty years until she died.  Every time she bumped it, she would break down and cry.  There have been numerous CS parents charged because of children dying for the lack of treatment.  I believe there are RARE people who are fertile soil and the power of their belief heals.  But, I suspect those persons, would have absorbed those advanced concepts, in other disciplines also.

Edited May 19, 2020 by moment

[qofq]

13 hours ago, freeform said:

 

So you're saying we crucified Jesus!?

 

 

 

Saw that reply coming the second my fingers touched the keys.  haha =)

 

To answer your question succinctly - "NO"

 

 

Though you kind of talked on my point 

13 hours ago, freeform said:

Try to tell an 'Awakened' person that despite how it feels, they've not 'arrived'. This isn't 'it'. There's a lot more to transform... And usually, you'll witness a sort of uncharacteristic mental and emotional thrashing about and all sorts of conceptual gymnastics that attempt to dispute what you've got to say.

 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

23 hours ago, freeform said:

I've seen dozens of genuinely awakened individuals come (or more often brought in) to be treated. Yes, their 'awakened' state is real - but everything else is unbalanced. Their health, their behaviour and their base drives tend to be completely out of whack - but they can't see it, because to them everything is perfect. It's just their families, their students and their friends that have to suffer with this.

 

In the west, these people would either be sectioned or become gurus

 

These accounts of awakening as you describe in these posts are fairly well documented in a variety of different literature, starting at least with William James' the Varieties of Religious Experience. However, I am skeptical that these are permanent awakenings -- most people who report these experiences inevitably backslide into their old habits. For some it may be days, weeks, months, years, but usually there is a backslide. Back in the day, I knew a man who "walked with God" for ten years. But it left and he was completely distraught. Nathan Gill is a good example on the "modern" non-duality side. He claimed to have a permanent awakening, but suffered awful pain and despair to the point where he was no longer able to handle it. I think part of spiritual practice is to "prepare the ground" so that when awakening arises, it doesn't just dissolve away like the proverbial bad seed on bad ground. There is a saying among Dzogchen yogis: Experiences are like the mist, they dissolve. 

 

What I have found is many people have a profound, temporary shifts, but tend to lose them and spend a lot of time trying to regain, replicate, or copy the experience. 

 

Of course, I am always open to thoughts about this. I would be curious if you have a Taoist explanation for the phenomenon. 

[forestofclarity]

19 hours ago, freeform said:

And yes - it is said that upon death a person who's reached this stage will transform into light at the moment of death (meaning no cadaver is left behind). The light created is said to usually be a light that floods an entire area for a period of time... usually along with a strong scent of flowers and so on.

 

A more "common" attainment (as in not common in the least!) is what's called the rainbow body - where, upon death, a kind of kaleidoscope of rainbows fills the sky and no cadaver remains (although some say nails and hair remain - not so important). This is one step removed from 'full enlightenment' as described above.

 

 

Do Taoists have tukdam (remaining is a suspended state for days or weeks after death)? 

[forestofclarity]

19 hours ago, Sebastian said:

After death, where are our lower emotions, base desires, greed, and ego going to go ? (Where is our Qi going to go ?)

 

And where is the Spirit of our being, the sum of all our good deeds, our love for others going to go ?  (Where is our shen going to go ?)

 

 

Sorry to spam the board, but this thread is so interesting!

 

It is interesting, because in Tibetan Buddhism, teachers may be peaceful or wrathful. In this thread, I presume a wrathful teacher would not be considered as having developed sufficient Ming, especially teachers who come from different cultures. In some regards, a wrathful teacher can be more beneficial since they can quickly shred or dissolve a student's obstacles. Such actions are well coded in ancient Tibetan and Chan/Zen stories, and many modern teachers have similar tales. 

 

If a teacher is peaceful, I have noticed that students often become very complacent, even to the point of not practicing. On the other hand, teachers who are more wrathful are widely condemned, even though many of their students experienced genuine spiritual cultivation (i.e. Trungpa). Trungpa could be a bear, but nearly every long term student of his who still practices is a genuine, usually open hearted person, kind, compassionate person (I live in North Denver and spend quite a bit of time in Boulder). 

 

I find it can be a hard balance--- a teacher can be so peaceful the student is never challenged. On the other hand, wrathful teachers can fall over into abuse. A very complex issue. 

 

 

[Sebastian]

Well the teacher can be at peace, but choose to act wrathful when teaching students too.

 

In the West a lot of teachers are very soft, so as you say there is also the risk of becoming complacent.

 

I have nothing against wrathful teachers, in my opinion they can create changes quicker in students. You don’t need to “be a nice guy”, or “be polite” to be a good teacher. I don’t think so at least. But you need morality though, you need to have good intentions for your students. It may seem like a fine line but there is a world of difference. You can be wrathful and helpful or wrathful and destructive.
 

I have a lot respect for teachers who are brutally honest when they speak, if it’s their style and they have genuine good intentions for the student. It’s definitely refreshing in this Western culture too. Even if a genuine master speaks poorly to me, I don’t think my respect would waiver, because they are great people helping the world. They just have their own vibe, and it’s cool by me, everyone is different.

 

 

[freeform]

54 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

These accounts of awakening as you describe in these posts are fairly well documented in a variety of different literature, starting at least with William James' the Varieties of Religious Experience. However, I am skeptical that these are permanent awakenings -- most people who report these experiences inevitably backslide into their old habits.

 

There are many reasons for this.

 

A major one is whether the awakening came about because of training aimed at bringing about this awakening or whether it was 'spontaneous'.

 

There are common reasons for the backsliding

 

56 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

I think part of spiritual practice is to "prepare the ground" so that when awakening arises, it doesn't just dissolve away like the proverbial bad seed on bad ground.

 

And that's the major one.

 

Since these arts are based on a sort of cause and effect chain - when certain causes are not in place, then the transformation is not complete - and instead appears as an 'experience'.

 

From a Daoist perspective, the major cause of incomplete transformation is not enough Qi.

 

People tend to think of it as 'there's not enough qi to fuel this state' - but equating Qi to fuel is not quite right. Qi is a catalyst for change - for transformation.

 

You've probably heard that Daoists want to become childlike - but this doesn't mean being childish - it means generating the level of Qi that a child generates. From this perspective - what allows children to grow, change and develop so fast is Qi. And returning to childlike state means generating the amount of Qi, flexibility and potential for growth and change.

 

A good, less spiritual example is in the world of classical music. It's often considered that although an adult can learn to play the piano very well, it's simply impossible for them to reach the same heights of mastery as someone who's learned to play as a child. And this isn't simply because of the number of hours of practice... adult brains are considered to be much less flexible and adaptable.

 

But if you have enough Qi - the situation is different.

[freeform]

36 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

It is interesting, because in Tibetan Buddhism, teachers may be peaceful or wrathful

 

It's not so much about the demeanour of the teacher.

 

They can be kind and soft or strict and strong - but if it comes from the 'right' place, it's always based on integrity, compassion and virtue.

 

If it comes from the 'wrong' place - from the place of the base desires - the desire for power, status, money, sex or attraction etc - then whatever the demeanour of the teacher, their teaching is corrupted.

[freeform]

51 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Do Taoists have tukdam (remaining is a suspended state for days or weeks after death)? 

 

I'm not sure.

 

There is a state of a sort of 'suspended animation' at the higher levels of alchemy - where bodily processes basically stop. Usually, the cultivator is in retreat for a few years in a cave or a meditation hut in the mountains and disciples will visit to check that there are no mice burrowing into any of the orifices

 

(sometimes the orifices are bunged up with wax for that very reason )

 

But this isn't a part of the dying process - it's usually a temporary stage of cultivation.

 

There is also what some people call a 'non-rotting body'... which means that once the person dies, their body doesn't rot or disintegrate (at least not completely).

 

Sometimes people claim that these cadavers are in fact living bodies in the state of suspended animation as I described above. But I've been told that that's not the case. In suspended animation, the body does not deteriorate or age - the skin remains 'alive' and supple and the hair and nails can carry on growing.

 

In the case of a non-rotting body, the cultivator is essentially dead - the body is not alive - it just doesn't rot like normal. This is a much earlier stage than for example the rainbow body attainment. (But a higher attainment than what we've been calling 'awakening' here)

[forestofclarity]

But unless one is a Buddha, one never knows. I was listening to a lama I trust talking about this just the other day. She pointed out that morality is largely a matter of culture. When my parents were young, severe physical punishment was meted out even by schools. When I was a kid, this was abuse, but spanking was ok. Now millennials say that spanking and harsh words is abusive. According to her, a lot of Tibetans would not have a problem with teachers sleeping with their students so long as they weren't monks. A lot of them reportedly liked to get drunk and do crazy things, like smash holes in walls to pull out termas. Some of them chase their students with axes. Crazy stuff happens. 

 

Bruce is a good example. He sets off every red flag in the book--- to a point (nothing like the above).  If I had your cafe experience, I would have avoided him. I think 50% of the first live class quit after day one. But I actually met his students first, who are all hands down the nicest people I've ever met. People say he's money hungry, but I haven't seen that to be the case-- he lives modestly. He speaks arrogantly and rudely (and makes no effort to hide it), yet he is generous with his time and knowledge (and sometimes financially). And the practice! For me at this point in my life, it is invaluable-- it has definitely furthered my dharma in a watershed sort of way (which I confirmed on the dharma side of the house). Of course, it may all end in disaster, which is ok. Disasters are helpful, too. 

 

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

It's not so much about the demeanour of the teacher.

 

They can be kind and soft or strict and strong - but if it comes from the 'right' place, it's always based on integrity, compassion and virtue.

 

If it comes from the 'wrong' place - from the place of the base desires - the desire for power, status, money, sex or attraction etc - then whatever the demeanour of the teacher, their teaching is corrupted.

 

Interesting. For Tibetan Buddhists, when you're going through the bardo of dying, you have a chance to rest in the nature of mind, the dharmata, which is what leads to tukdam. This happened in a U.S. hospital in the 1980's to the Karmapa. His heart was reported to be physically warm after three days. I've heard a number of first hand accounts that I trust, although I have not witnessed this myself. It is also said that if you meditate with the dying person, you may be able to experience the state itself. 

 

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

I'm not sure.

 

There is a state of a sort of 'suspended animation' at the higher levels of alchemy - where bodily processes basically stop. Usually, the cultivator is in retreat for a few years in a cave or a meditation hut in the mountains and disciples will visit to check that there are no mice burrowing into any of the orifices

 

(sometimes the orifices are bunged up with wax for that very reason )

 

But this isn't a part of the dying process - it's usually a temporary stage of cultivation.

 

There is also what some people call a 'non-rotting body'... which means that once the person dies, their body doesn't rot or disintegrate (at least not completely).

 

Sometimes people claim that these cadavers are in fact living bodies in the state of suspended animation as I described above. But I've been told that that's not the case. In suspended animation, the body does not deteriorate or age - the skin remains 'alive' and supple and the hair and nails can carry on growing.

 

In the case of a non-rotting body, the cultivator is essentially dead - the body is not alive - it just doesn't rot like normal. This is a much earlier stage than for example the rainbow body attainment. (But a higher attainment than what we've been calling 'awakening' here)

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I'm not sure.

 

There is a state of a sort of 'suspended animation' at the higher levels of alchemy - where bodily processes basically stop. Usually, the cultivator is in retreat for a few years in a cave or a meditation hut in the mountains and disciples will visit to check that there are no mice burrowing into any of the orifices

 

(sometimes the orifices are bunged up with wax for that very reason )

 

But this isn't a part of the dying process - it's usually a temporary stage of cultivation.

 

There is also what some people call a 'non-rotting body'... which means that once the person dies, their body doesn't rot or disintegrate (at least not completely).

 

Sometimes people claim that these cadavers are in fact living bodies in the state of suspended animation as I described above. But I've been told that that's not the case. In suspended animation, the body does not deteriorate or age - the skin remains 'alive' and supple and the hair and nails can carry on growing.

 

In the case of a non-rotting body, the cultivator is essentially dead - the body is not alive - it just doesn't rot like normal. This is a much earlier stage than for example the rainbow body attainment. (But a higher attainment than what we've been calling 'awakening' here)

These are pretty much par for the course for real Yogis/Tantriks in the various Indian traditions too.

When Paramahamsa Yogananda left his body, his physical body didn't show signs of decay for an extended period of time.

 

Or as in the case of Haridas, who spent 40 days, buried underground (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadhu_Haridas)

 

In the 1970s, Swami Rama of the Himalayan institute demonstrated in laboratory studies abilities to stop his heart for extended periods of time, make tumors appear and disappear on his body, and many seemingly "super human feats" (and details are published in the book "Beyond Bio-Feedback"). His collaboration led to the entire bio-feedback field of science.  

 

These don't guarantee that the person is enlightened though (I'm not saying these individuals I referred to weren't though).

 

There are five pranas (or vayus) per Yogic tradition that govern various functions of the body and mind. Of them, the one responsible for skin, hair, nails etc is called Vyana Vayu. Typically with people who've high degree of yogic development, the vyana vayu retains the body for extended periods of time after the body is discarded.  

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by dwai

[silent thunder]

It's been intriguing and enlightening, watching my own tendencies to assume that through my interpretations, I accurately determine the compass and conditions of what and who others are in their totality. 

 

This teacher is the real deal.

This teacher is a fake.

 

What a judgemental ass. 

What a kind hearted

 

So and so is backsliding.

So and so is awakened.

 

All I decry, stems solely from my own perspective however. 

I determine only my take the nature of another's path from how I interpret them from within my own awareness.

 

We each experience life from the center of our own awareness.

And we each see an event through the lense of that center.

 

Fascinating process... 

 

 

 

 

[bax44]

What appears on the outside to others as "backsliding" might be the person going through intense "trials" or life experiences that may be needed or actually furthuring the "process". and hopefully the person doesnt percieve it as going backwards or they might miss the biggest opportunities for growth. 

 

just sayin.

[freeform]

11 hours ago, bax44 said:

What appears on the outside to others as "backsliding" might be the person going through intense "trials" or life experiences that may be needed or actually furthuring the "process". and hopefully the person doesnt percieve it as going backwards or they might miss the biggest opportunities for growth. 

 

just sayin.

 

Yes - completely agree...

 

But it depends.

 

Most of the 'backsliding that furthers the process', in genuine traditions, are known phases of transition.

 

For example, the stage before the alchemical pill arises - the same stage as the 3rd Jhanna - there's a well known period of extreme misery. Not an emotional misery - but a kind of nihilistic depression. The bliss of the earlier stages is well and truly gone. Emotionality - any kind of emotional connection is gone. A deeply visceral realisation of the nature of transience arises. And normally the cultivator suffers in a pit of deep despair (until the next stage of the process).

 

But then there's the type of "backsliding" where you decide - hey, I'm Sai Baba, the divine incarnation of God - I offer unconditional divine love to all... and today I feel like expressing my divine love by molesting the children of my followers...

 

This sort of behaviour is extremely common in these guru circles.

 

This is not the kind of backsliding that furthers progress... this is the backsliding of a fancy, spiritual looking veil that covers the ugly truth - which is that growth stopped a long time ago and that now, the whole thing is simply being driven by base desires.

 

19 hours ago, silent thunder said:

All I decry, stems solely from my own perspective however. 

I determine only my take the nature of another's path from how I interpret them from within my own awareness.

 

That may well be true.

 

But it's exactly the kind of reasoning used by these gurus to cover up and down-play the sort of behaviour above.

 

In the spirit of 'everything is subjective' - who's to say it isn't divine love that's the underlying motivation for guruji to be molesting kids?

 

No - I'm sorry but, I don't think 'everything is subjective' cuts it.

 

In actual fact, when you begin to develop what in Daoism is known as Zhi Guan... or what could be called 'non-habitual insight' - as in one's insight isn't coloured by the 'acquired self' - then your interpretation of another's path stops being solely a subjective perspective. And you can see the underlying 'truth' of (any) situation in a kind of web of causal chains.

 

Not 'good' and 'bad' - not even a very 'human' interpretation. From the rare glimpse I've had of this state, every manifestation can be looked into and you can see this exquisitely complex arrangement of cause and effect links.

 

And the higher level teachers within any genuine tradition are constantly experiencing this state of insight.

 

We place science and the scientific method as the closest barometer of truth, but in the past, the insight of these masters was the barometer of truth. And neither are without their own sets of issues.

Edited May 21, 2020 by freeform

[dwai]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

ut then there's the type of "backsliding" where you decide - hey, I'm Sai Baba, the divine incarnation of God - I offer unconditional divine love to all... and today I feel like expressing my divine love by molesting the children of my followers...

That is totally uncalled for. How much do you know about Sai Baba anyway? 
 

He is still very active today, even though he gave up his body several years ago. 

 

I certainly didn’t expect this kind of slanderous stuff from you. 
 

Also, I don’t expect westerners to really understand the Guru-Shishya tradition, and often seen pompous, entitled (undeservedly so) westerners claim they don’t need a Guru or slander their teachers once they learnt what they had to from them! 

 

The Guru-shishya tradition is a sacred thing, the Guru is the spiritual parent. One has to be careful in choosing their Guru, as much as the guru has to be careful in choosing their disciple. 
 

It might seem very cool to “Guru Bash”, but it displays ignorance and a deep and entrenched cultural bias...

Edited May 21, 2020 by dwai

[anshino23]

42 minutes ago, dwai said:

That is totally uncalled for. How much do you know about Sai Baba anyway? 
 

He is still very active today, even though he gave up his body several years ago

 

Did you perhaps read freeform wrong here? I actually thought he was just using it as an example - the deluded practictioner might as well consider himself Jesus or Padmasambhva or Ali Baba the Great - and that his divine love is a gift to all - including his base (untransformed) desires being expressed as part of that - totally oblivious to its destructive effects.

 

I don't think freeform was speaking specifically about the actual Sai Baba? I could be wrong though - just not how I read it  

Edited May 21, 2020 by anshino23

[dwai]

39 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

Did you perhaps read freeform wrong here? I actually thought he was just using it as an example - the deluded practictioner might as well consider himself Jesus or Padmasambhva or Ali Baba the Great - and that his divine love is a gift to all - including his base (untransformed) desires being expressed as part of that - totally oblivious to its destructive effects.

 

I don't think freeform was speaking specifically about the actual Sai Baba? I could be wrong though - just not how I read it  

Only he can tell what he was speaking about. But that kind of slander is typical from Sai Baba bashers I've encountered in the past. 

 

The fact is, that Sai Baba was, and various Indian Gurus are a big hurdle for Evangelical Christian organizations and their agents, therefore they have tended to draw the ire in mainstream media. India is the last bastion of the ancient world today, with Hinduism being the majority religion there (~ 1B people who practice it in some form).

 

So, a systematic and systematized propaganda has been unleashed on people like Sai Baba, Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev, Sri Sri Ravishankar, Amma, Baba Ramdev, etc. 

 

The Evangelical Christian denominations have had their eyes on India for a "Harvest of Souls" for a long time, with insidious projects like The Joshua Project. 

 

Some folks might ask, "so what if these Christian organizations target the Hindus? There should be freedom of religion in a democratic world, right?"

 

The problem with this type of predatory efforts is that people are deracinated, cut off from their social and cultural roots. The kind of propaganda against Gurus we see in media is usually a result of such predatory practices...campaigns to malign and discredit teachers such as those listed above, with millions of followers, because they become massive hurdles for the conversion campaigns. 

[ilumairen]

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

It might seem very cool to “Guru Bash”, but it displays ignorance and a deep and entrenched cultural bias...

 

Just as such a knee-jerk reaction to the mention of accusations of misconduct displays a different (although quite similar) cultural bias.

 

 

[dwai]

9 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

Just as such a knee-jerk reaction to the mention of accusations of misconduct displays a different (although quite similar) cultural bias.

 

 

I've seen far more such arrogant westerners than 'Gurus' with genuine issues. Go to any "spiritual" forum and you'll see them on display. 

[ilumairen]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

I've seen far more such arrogant westerners than 'Gurus' with genuine issues. Go to any "spiritual" forum and you'll see them on display. 

 

First, there are far more westerners than gurus, so I would honestly hope what you describe would be the case. 

 

Second, you'll see the same dynamic regarding Catholic priests, although similarly the majority of them do not exhibit the behavior which causes backlash against the idea of spiritual authority - which brings your theory regarding cultural destruction focused on India, and the sacred guru/student relationship into question imo.

 

 

[dwai]

22 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

First, there are far more westerners than gurus, so I would honestly hope what you describe would be the case. 

 

Second, you'll see the same dynamic regarding Catholic priests, although similarly the majority of them do not exhibit the behavior which causes backlash against the idea of spiritual authority - which brings your theory regarding cultural destruction focused on India, and the sacred guru/student relationship into question imo.

 

 

It might seem that way, but it is a fact  (you and others are free to believe whatever you like of course). 
 

Usually people don’t believe it when they see it/hear it for the first time since it’s not on their radar, or affects them in any significant way. India has been on the receiving end of a cultural and religious onslaught for a long time now. 
 

[ilumairen]

7 minutes ago, dwai said:

It might seem that way, but it is a fact  (you and others are free to believe whatever you like of course). 
 

Usually people don’t believe it when they see it/hear it for the first time since it’s not on their radar, or affects them in any significant way. India has been on the receiving end of a cultural and religious onslaught for a long time now. 
 

 

This is taking an interesting turn and direction, however it kind of sidesteps the point of spiritual leaders backsliding, and/or abusing their power and authority for personal gratification of base desires - regardless of potential harm to others.

 

The cultural significance and authority of the Catholic church has significantly eroded over the years, and I don't understand why you believe a population which decries sexually predatory behavior of it's own holy men would/should/or even could (without creating an internal dissonance) hold the holy men of a different culture to a lesser standard.

 

I'm about out of time for now, and while I find cross cultural dynamics, assimilations, and yes, destructions, an interesting topic, it is entirely to complex and deep for the few remaining moments I have today, and possibly to fruitfully discuss at all in this setting.

 

[dwai]

 

 

 

1

10 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

This is taking an interesting turn and direction, however it kind of sidesteps the point of spiritual leaders backsliding, and/or abusing their power and authority for personal gratification of base desires - regardless of potential harm to others.

That's how these things go. The 'backsliding' was not really about spiritual leaders, but rather about individual seekers who might have "tasted ambrosia" (as a figure of speech) and then appear to "lose access to the wellspring". 

 

In reality, the "backsliding" is an intermediate phase after awakening, because the old habits still rise and hold sway. So it is not unusual for someone who has "woken up", to feel that the clarity and knowledge that was very clear and in the forefront during the "peak" of their experience has somehow disappeared. Then they end up feeling depressed, or chasing after that clarity, trying to understand how to "abide" in their "self nature" or "true nature" etc. 

 

This goes away when the realization rises that "ignorance" and "awakening" are both recognized/known by "true nature". It is a very subtle thing and takes a bit of time to be grasped. So it is premature to somehow call those who "awaken" and then seem to "lose it" to be something less than those who have "true awakening".   

 

It again boils down to the "effort vs no-effort/doing vs not-doing" debate. 

 

 

 

 

 

2

10 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

The cultural significance and authority of the Catholic church has significantly eroded over the years, and I don't understand why you believe a population which decries sexually predatory behavior of it's own holy men would/should/or even could (without creating an internal dissonance) hold the holy men of a different culture to a lesser standard.

Because they're hypocrites and the Church is a corporation in essence. Also the main culprits are the evangelical denominations based out of the US, and not so much the roman catholic church these days. 

10 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

I'm about out of time for now, and while I find cross cultural dynamics, assimilations, and yes, destructions, an interesting topic, it is entirely to complex and deep for the few remaining moments I have today, and possibly to fruitfully discuss at all in this setting.

 

It might be interesting to you as a casual observer, like one might find a road accident interesting (in a spectacle kind of thing), but for those who live it, and have to endure it, it is a nightmare.