Is i ching like astrology ?

[waterdrop]

I read somewhere (reality transurfing)  against astrology  - as in predicting the future  cause they talk their how beliefs can create reality - and if someone is told he will die or get ill  just the fact he belives in it raises the chances it will really happen   :     so is i ching predicting ones future ?    if so i assume it has the same problems "westren"  future predictions has in the sense that i described above ?

[SirPalomides]

You should rephrase your question because it's unclear to me what the criticism of astrology is, and which astrology is being talked about.

[SirPalomides]

I'll say this, though- the I Ching is not a fatalistic predicter. Its readings are about how to respond to events- what one can do to best bring about, take advantage of, mitigate, or avoid a given development. A lot is left in the hands of the reader.

[waterdrop]

The criticism i read about astrology  is that predicting the future to someone can affect his future 

so if you say to him he will get ill and he strongly believes it can increase the chances of him getting ill   

so i wondered about it  - cause i dont know much about astrology   and  less about i ching  -  but if it also predicts the future to people in the way of saying  "you will get ill"    and by that increase the chance of that even described to come into reality

[SirPalomides]

20 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

The criticism i read about astrology  is that predicting the future to someone can affect his future 

so if you say to him he will get ill and he strongly believes it can increase the chances of him getting ill   

so i wondered about it  - cause i dont know much about astrology   and  less about i ching  -  but if it also predicts the future to people in the way of saying  "you will get ill"    and by that increase the chance of that even described to come into reality

 

I'm not deeply informed about any form of astrology but I would wager that it's not possible to generalize too much about how it works, because there are so many different systems and methods of consultation and interpretation. Do we will something into being by predicting it? If that's true, then the problem isn't with the divination but with the way our minds work constantly.

 

Read a sample entry of the I Ching here. When one consults it, it is done with specific questions- not super-broad questions like "what will happen in the future?" but "how can I prepare for the coming week?" or "how should I plan for my trip?" The answers the book gives are couched in imagery and very broad statements, and one relies on commentaries as well as a good skill for making analogies to apply them to the situation. The most obvious, literal correspondence may be misleading. They also leave a lot of room for personal agency- there are frequently indications about how you might make a bad situation good or vice versa by certain types of action.

Edited April 24, 2020 by SirPalomides

[Taomeow]

I practice both Chinese astrology and I Ching studies and divination.  Here's what I've been taught:

 

1. Neither one is used to "predict the future" in the same sense other divination systems might.  Both are probabilistic taoist sciences and address the likelihood of certain outcomes by tracing the unfolding of certain initial conditions and extrapolating the tendencies discovered therein into the most likely future outcomes of following a particular course of action (or inaction.)  In other words, they are in no way deterministic and were not designed to function in a deterministic universe of fixed futures, a universe that, to someone educated in taoist sciences, does not exist and cannot exist.  On the other hand, they are very good at assessing probabilities of future events -- much like some of our modern stochastic sciences which can predict, e.g., the likelihood and expected depth of an economic recession, or someone's chances of developing a genetic disorder, or a pandemic.  Only better.  

      

2. If you do an astrology reading, provided you're proficient and get accurate information which you know how to accurately interpret, the traditional view is, it's a bit like playing the stock market based on inside information. It may give you an unfair advantage.  It's not that you will "manifest" what you see in the forecast by forecasting, anymore than a weather man causes the rain by announcing that the chance of rain is 80%.  It's a different mechanism -- knowing the odds for a particular future event is not just announcing it's going to rain but also having access to weather modification machinery.  Well, the traditional view is, some forces of fate (which shall remain unnamed for purposes of this post) might not like it.  They may punish the person who might have interfered with their secret plans by revealing them in advance.  It's akin to punishing a whistleblower.  But there's a remedy a "fate whistleblower" can resort to: offer compensation.  If you do a reading for yourself, make offerings to appease the fate.  If you do a reading for someone else, they have to pay, you can't do it for free or else the debt is on you, and fate will subtract from the diviner's "account."  So, I've been taught not to do any astrology readings for free -- even if the payment is symbolic rather than for profit, they have to pay something, and then it's my responsibility to use part of it or all of it toward making offerings to fate, via deities and/or their representatives (e.g. a taoist temple or a teacher or a good deed.)  If they don't pay and I don't make any offerings, fate might subtract from both accounts, mine and the one the reading is for.  Not that it "will," that's also stochastic...  but it "might."  

 

3.  It's different with the I Ching, in that the offering can be small (not in all cases but in small cases) -- burning some incense might be enough.  Besides, the I Ching will tell you when she wants an offering and in what shape and form, so you don't have to guess.  Of course she asks on behalf of the forces of fate or deities or their agents, not for herself.  She needs nothing from you.  "It is not I who seek the young fool; the young fool seeks me."  And of course all of us are "young fools" to her, considering her age and wisdom...  

Edited April 24, 2020 by Taomeow

[SirPalomides]

11 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 It's different with the I Ching, in that the offering can be small (not in all cases but in small cases) -- burning some incense might be enough.  Besides, the I Ching will tell you when she wants an offering and in what shape and form, so you don't have to guess

 

Could you say more about this? I know there are passages that say things like, "it is fitting to make an offering" but I wonder how literally this is to be taken and what form the offering would take.

[Taomeow]

12 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

 

Could you say more about this? I know there are passages that say things like, "it is fitting to make an offering" but I wonder how literally this is to be taken and what form the offering would take.

 

Oh, there's a whole bunch of hexagrams where it will be mentioned.

 

20, Judgment 

41, Judgment 

45, Judgment 

45, line 2 

46, line 2 

47, line 2 

47, line 5 

51, Judgment 

59, Image 

63, line 5.

 

What form the offering would take -- there's some hints and pointers therein, the rest is up to the diviner to figure out.  With experience, it can be understood from the situation.  When in doubt, one can separately divine the appropriateness of the offering she has in mind.