How to fix knocked knees ?

[waterdrop]

I think i see an improvemnt already  - i stand wuji after stretching frog pose  and it seem i didnt even need to "hold"  it much at all 

still not sure i really got how not to overdo things  the way i did with the split  -  which also went well ... until it didnt
 

7 minutes ago, freeform said:

small, subtle movements.

 
i think i got this  -  but all this moments i do while in a stretched pose right ?    so it is like doing  a long split just moving tiny bit from side to side  maybe rocking the body a bit ?  

so it is static in a sense  just with tiny movemnts  -    so there is always a constant stretch ! ?      like for example there is always a stretch in frog pose of 7  and by moving we move between a 7-9  stretch force  -  but still there is always a constant stretch   ... which is what you wrote against doing ?



 

Edited May 1, 2020 by waterdrop

[freeform]

15 minutes ago, Harmonious Emptiness said:

Your toes grab the floor lifting the arches

I know some systems use this principle - but if I understand correctly, the system @waterdrop is following does not do this - and doing this would cause issues.

 

Otherwise - I think you’re spot on with the inwards turning contraction and outwards expansion. 
 

knocked knees is very common. In women in particular as @Harmonious Emptiness mentions - as keeping legs closed and often crossing them trains this habitual tendency.

 

Its nothing to worry about or over focus on... just keep training as we’ve discussed and you’ll soon forget that you even had the problem. No one’s body is perfectly balanced or symmetrical anyway

[waterdrop]

It sounds like harmonious is training in zhieneng qigong   except   the stand in zhineneg qigong of "three centers merge"  has the legs turned inward which is the opposite of opening the hips as far as i understand   so maybe its not the case  ....

for the record i start to follow damo mitchell course 

Edited May 1, 2020 by waterdrop

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

i think i got this  -  but all this moments i do while in a stretched pose right ?    so it is like doing  a long split just moving tiny bit from side to side  maybe rocking the body a bit ? 

👍🏼 Yes

 

3 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

I think i see an improvemnt already  - i stand wuji after stretching frog pose  and it seem i didnt even need to "hold"  it much at all 

great 👍🏼
 

3 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

still not sure i really got how not to overdo things  the way i did with the split  -  which also went well ... until it didnt

Don’t focus on an end goal (like splits or any particular pose). Do short sessions, don’t hold a stretch for ages. Keep mobile as discussed and absorb your mind into the tissues. This will keep you from overdoing it

[anshino23]

5 hours ago, freeform said:

Yes with qigong stretching you don’t want to hold a specific line stretched for a long time (like the rubber band being over stretched until it looses its elasticity).

 

With stretching for qigong you want to make sure you absorb your mind in the area you’re working on... your awareness has to be fully absorbed into the tissues.

This is very important.

 

You’ll notice that the stretch becomes more ‘difficult’ - or less loose and there will be a lot more stretching throughout your body if engaged with the mind in this way. This greatly increases the efficiency of opening your body.

 

And again keep away from holding a static stretch - generally there should be some movement - whether it’s a slight roll of the hip joint as you stretch your kwa - or the movement of your body to get into the end range of the stretch. 
 

This combined with the absorption of the mind into your tissues will be the most efficient and effective way to open your body and even begin to connect it together.

 

This is an excellent explanation and is also exactly how Damo explains the body opening in the first week. Going along with him and doing the stretches, it truly is quite amazing how much more of a stretch you get when you soak your mind into the tissues. 

[waterdrop]

I edited my post

 

Quote

i think i got this  -  but all this moments i do while in a stretched pose right ?    so it is like doing  a long split just moving tiny bit from side to side  maybe rocking the body a bit ?  

so it is static in a sense  just with tiny movemnts  -    so there is always a constant stretch ! ?      like for example there is always a stretch in frog pose of 7  and by moving we move between a 7-9  stretch force  -  but still there is always a constant stretch   ... which is what you wrote against doing ?

 

[freeform]

6 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

which is what you wrote against doing ?

No I didn’t write that. You don’t want to stretch a single line - you want to absorb your mind in your tissues and keep mobile and moving.

 

Im running out of ways to say the same thing though

[waterdrop]

ok i get it now  -     to stretch while moving (with awareness)  just not sure about the logic

its just at first you wrote  " it's like holding an elastic band in tension until it loses its elasticity "     ,,,,,,,,     so an elastic band you put in tension is still in tension if you move it -   but i guess the point is if you move it than you can get a stronger stretch  so it will be shorter ?

Edited May 1, 2020 by waterdrop

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

it truly is quite amazing how much more of a stretch you get when you soak your mind into the tissues. 

This is the key! 

[freeform]

1 minute ago, waterdrop said:

its just at first you wrote  " it's like holding an elastic band in tension until it loses its elasticity "     ,,,,,,,,     so an elastic band you put in tension is still in tension if you move it -   but i guess the point is if you move it than you can get a stronger stretch  so it will be shorter ?

It’s more like with the movement and with mental absorption, you’re stretching hundreds of rubber bands - and with the small movements the amount of stretch and tension changes from band to band as you move.

 

[waterdrop]

Ok now i truly got it

[thelerner]

Little things make a difference.  After years of doing squats.  Spreading my knees out (away from each other) an inch or two, ie moving them slightly more apart, makes for a much stronger, less clickety, base. 

 

Experiment a bit.  Sometimes a slight posture change brings nice results.  Whether static or dynamic. 

[Mikey_Power_Up]

I was too cranky with my reply!  

Edited May 3, 2020 by Mikey_Power_Up

[Creation]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

I know some systems use this principle - but if I understand correctly, the system @waterdrop is following does not do this - and doing this would cause issues.

 

Otherwise - I think you’re spot on with the inwards turning contraction and outwards expansion. 

Well, this thread has brought up some things which have been major issues for me recently, so I'll share here. 

 

I got to the point where assuming Damo's Wuji for any amount of time, even a few seconds, would result in a kind of crushing of my kidneys, so that, in the pose I didn't feel pain, but afterward, if I made any movement involving the abdomen I would have sharp pain in my kidneys.  Needless to say, I was quite frightened.  I stopped practicing and got to work to see what might be wrong.  Two major things that needed sorted our were

1.  Collapsed arches and habitually holding my weight over my heels.  When I would shift the weight into the front of the foot per Damo's instructions, my plantar fascia didn't engage as intended (which would be the physical correlate of activating yongquan), and the weight basically went into the toes.  I was going from heels to toes and never actually activating the part that was supposed to activate.

2. The spiraling actions of the legs and arms that synergzie proper opening and closing of the hips and shoulders were not engaging correctly, particularly external spiraling of the legs.  This came from years of practicing yoga with bad cues (basically, internally rotate the legs in all poses).  So whenever I would open and close the kwa, there was a fundamental imbalance and instability in how it was happening. 

Even now that I have started doing a little practice again, I'm only practicing for a small amount per session, taking a lot of care on these points.  There are further things going on not relevant to this thread that also need sorted out.  I had a dream that warned me that I might seriously damage my kidneys, so I'm trying to not do that.

[waterdrop]

 @Creation   That is disturbing to read ,  cause it makes me doubt the "Self fixing"  aspect of wuji   -  especailly cause i would think any pain in my organs   (anything that isnt joint pain especaiily)   is some kind of healing proccess and that wuji is working great  and its part of the self fixing  

[freeform]

10 hours ago, Creation said:

I got to the point where assuming Damo's Wuji for any amount of time, even a few seconds, would result in a kind of crushing of my kidneys, so that, in the pose I didn't feel pain, but afterward, if I made any movement involving the abdomen I would have sharp pain in my kidneys.

 

Are you sure the pain is in the kidneys?

 

Could it be the lower back - muscles or connective tissues either side of the spine?

 

It's more common to have pain in the back muscles from an incorrect posture. Generally, the actual location of the kidneys is much higher than people tend to think... and sharp pain within the actual kidneys as a result of movement is very rare (usually a sign of kidney stones). Have you had any changes in your urine?

 

Other things to look for:

 

When you pivot slightly forward, make sure you're not pivoting at your diaphragm (crushing your abdomen slightly and elongating your lower back) - the pivot should come at the kwa. It should feel like the weight is shifted out of your spine and into the springy tissues in your torso. The bend should feel like it makes it possible to release deeper - release your lower back in particular.

 

When you drop the weight of your pelvis off the spine, make sure you're releasing rather than doing this through tension and pulling.

 

Tension in the kwa is often the main driver of issues in the lower body. So is tension in the legs - butt, outer thighs...

 

11 hours ago, Creation said:

I was going from heels to toes and never actually activating the part that was supposed to activate.

 

I'm assuming you've worked on this - stuff like massaging your feet, using a tennis ball for example. Some people swear by toe separators (designed for runners).

 

11 hours ago, Creation said:

The spiraling actions of the legs and arms that synergzie proper opening and closing of the hips and shoulders were not engaging correctly, particularly external spiraling of the legs.

 

The stretching advice should help with all this.

 

4 hours ago, waterdrop said:

That is disturbing to read ,  cause it makes me doubt the "Self fixing"  aspect of wuji

 

You're at the pre-wuji stage - at the moment the Qi hasn't mobilised for you yet. When the Qi mobilises and the inside of the body becomes animated - that's when the 'self-fixing' will start.

 

It feels very uncomfortable at first... many people report feeling like they want to run away - but there's no real cause. Any standing posture with correct qualities will create a kind of inner pressure - which will often act on the emotions and the mind as well as the body... it's like heat builds up inside and you're ready to explode (either physically or emotionally) - the mind often starts to thrash about and either leave the body (and focus on something outside) or start imagining things or sneakily try to create doubts and trains of thought designed to stop you from practising.

 

Of course, the answer to all of that is Sung... release, let go, expand, relax... it often takes some time - but eventually a point comes when your mind lets go, your bigger muscles release - and although it's still uncomfortable, there's a sense of ease and strength... After a longer while, once your connective tissues, deeper muscles and fascia get strong and connected enough, going into wuji should feel like sitting into a very comfy elasticated hammock.

 

4 hours ago, waterdrop said:

i would think any pain in my organs   (anything that isnt joint pain especaiily)   is some kind of healing proccess and that wuji is working great  and its part of the self fixing

 

Pain that feels like a bruising or a deep soreness is an indication that your tissues are beginning to separate and become unstuck - it's a good sign. Sometimes almost unbearable burning in the legs and feet can come up - also normal - just needs to be released. Soreness and feeling like your body has been wrung out is almost constant for the first couple of years. Like after a long day of hard labour.

 

Sharp, stabbing pain, however, indicates a problem.

[Creation]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Are you sure the pain is in the kidneys?

 

Could it be the lower back - muscles or connective tissues either side of the spine?

 

It's more common to have pain in the back muscles from an incorrect posture. Generally, the actual location of the kidneys is much higher than people tend to think... and sharp pain within the actual kidneys as a result of movement is very rare (usually a sign of kidney stones). Have you had any changes in your urine?

I'm quite certain it's not muscle or ligament pain, and yes it's quite high up in the torso, the region between the diaphragm and navel.  Actually, when I had an ultrasound for appendicitis a few years ago, they told me I had a small kidney stone, which I presume has just been chilling in there this whole time.  There is an emotional component as well - my kidneys existed for a long time in a state of extreme continual fear contraction, and this still gets triggered relatively easily (for instance a few hours ago).  This habitually contracted state of the tissue around the kidneys makes the area very sensitive.  And finally, due to my fearful/willful water nature, when Daoist practices didn't seem to be getting anywhere for me I got really into forceful yoga postures and breathing methods, just to feel some self-efficacy.  I'm still unraveling how this compromised my ability to sung the body and breath - I was really intense about it.  And yet I had a certain amount of carefulness - I never hurt myself overtly, it's only now that I'm doing Daoist practice again that I see the problems it caused.  I only felt sharp pain in yoga poses on three occasions, and it was in in this same upper abdominal region that I am having issues with now, but it was muscular then - the upper psoas, or so it seemed at the time.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Creation

[waterdrop]

freeform   do you think cracks  knacks  in the knee is a bad sign  ?    ( i get it from butterfly stretch  - not from frog stretch  ...  get it  maybe an hour or two after the exercise) 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Creation said:

I got really into forceful yoga postures and breathing methods, just to feel some self-efficacy.  I'm still unraveling how this compromised my ability to sung the body and breath

 

Don't worry too much - everyone has issues to work through. Everyone's process is unique, but with Sung, there's a path through it - just as water always finds a way.

 

Do you know if your Qi has mobilised? Do you get spontaneous movements or strong heat and sensations through the body?

 

When Qi starts to mobilise it will often try to push out any 'external' stuff... Some people get horrid smelling yellow/brown sweat... smelly dark urine is common. some get diarrhoea (very common) - I've known people who's fillings start popping out - even old shrapnel being pushed out of the skin. I had a blister develop on an old scar - it grew until it popped and inside was the small point of a knife that must've broken off when I was stabbed (long story! ).

 

So it's possible that your body is attempting to push your kidney stone out. That's what sharp pain in the kidneys would indicate to me. Normally pain in the kidneys doesn't feel sharp - but a bit like getting kicked in the balls hard. I know kidney stones are quite treatable with Chinese herbology - so maybe you could look into that to try and help the process along?

 

 

[freeform]

47 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

freeform   do you think cracks  knacks  in the knee is a bad sign  ?    ( i get it from butterfly stretch  - not from frog stretch  ...  get it  maybe an hour or two after the exercise)

 

As long as there's no pain, and it stops, it should be fine - especially if you're following the guidelines for stretching that we've been talking about.

[waterdrop]

do you think it can be even a good sign if i follow the guidelines ?   or just not a bad thing ?

and do you think i can improvise stretches  - as long as it feels ok and i follow the guidelines than it seems every stretch i invent should be fine right ?
 

Edited May 2, 2020 by waterdrop

[forestofclarity]

Not to be the wet blanket, but trying a DIY approach based on online posts sounds like a really bad idea. If you want to do this stuff, you should find a teacher and establish a daily practice. 

 

23 hours ago, waterdrop said:

do you think it can be even a good sign if i follow the guidelines ?   or just not a bad thing ?

and do you think i can improvise stretches  - as long as it feels ok and i follow the guidelines than it seems every stretch i invent should be fine right ?