How to fix knocked knees ?

[waterdrop]

i have Knee Valgus / knocked knees  / inward turning knees   issue  -  not something really extreme but enough to cause some problem in for example wuji stance

i wonder if there is a way to fix this - cause i dont want to see a PT at the moment    (wont cause of corona  and also in the past i went many times to different issues  without  success)

when i practiced zhineneg qigong  -  i was told 2 things  -  1 that doing 100 wall squats a day would heal any problem (asked about this here in different thread and apperantly the answer is its not true  https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/49918-what-are-all-the-benifits-of-wall-squats/?tab=comments#comment-902301

and  was told by someone else there (not a teacher but advanced student) that if i stand in three  centeres merge stance  - my posturue will correct itself 

So  base on that insperation  - i would like to hear peoples opinion on the matter     :    if they have some solution (execpt to  say to go to see a PT)  "traditional"  ones  -  meaning western solutions exercises etc 

or they have some taoistic solutions  like  stand in this specific stand for  2 hours a day and problem will fix itself by itself  -  do Y  for 30 minutes and it would fix itself  etc 

in short im asking :  1. do you have a solution (of any kind qigoong realted or westeren related etc)  to knocked knees  2 .  do you have some "magic"  one all solution like stand in X position and you will fix your posture intuitively etc

Edited April 30, 2020 by waterdrop

[freeform]

"frog stretch" several times a day

[waterdrop]

You think that alone can fix knocked knees ?

i tried to do butterfly stretch but it really cause me pain in the knees ....  which i dont understand why -if its a hip opening exercise why it causes more pain ?

i also wonder if sleeping in "Bound Angle Pose"  can help  - its easy for me to do i sometimes do it for comfort a few seconds at night  i wonder if sleeping like that can help  -  or if i will wake up with really messed up knees cause its like doing a butterfly stretch  all night  

[waterdrop]

I also wonder getting how much posture is important   -  than how things went  for qigong teachers in the past  - did they correct a lot of students postures  -  for example if someone came with knocked knees did they first gave him many exercises to fix their posture   ?  cause i seen somewhere you cant correct all stuff in wuji stance  so in that case would seem that qigong teachers if their good knew exactly how to fix many imbalances in the body and had some ways cause i dont think they used all the   that you can see todaylike using bands etc

[freeform]

2 hours ago, waterdrop said:

You think that alone can fix knocked knees ?

i tried to do butterfly stretch but it really cause me pain in the knees ....  which i dont understand why -if its a hip opening exercise why it causes more pain ?

 

It would certainly help!

 

Most leg issues start at the hips.

 

Stretching is always important before your qigong. It will open you up just enough that your Qi can circulate and over time fix issues.

 

Yes standing can fix postural issues - but Qi needs to move, and if it can't move because you're bound up, you can't get that 'self-fixing process' to start. You never really stop stretching (because you lead a life and your body will always become bound up by whatever posture you hold most of the day).

 

2 hours ago, waterdrop said:

i also wonder if sleeping in "Bound Angle Pose"

 

I'd avoid stretching for long periods like that... it's like holding an elastic band in tension until it loses its elasticity. You don't want to lose elasticity.

 

2 hours ago, waterdrop said:

I also wonder getting how much posture is important   -  than how things went  for qigong teachers in the past  - did they correct a lot of students postures

 

Different teachers work differently.

 

The most traditional teachers do loads of postural work (often through external martial arts) - before even starting anything internal like Qigong.

 

Yes posture is important - but not for the sake of posture. If you know what I mean...

[waterdrop]

thanks for replies  -  so just to make it clear  - you are not sure why specifically butterfly stretches caused me pain in knee even though they are suposed to fix it ? 

would you say i should go by the route of just googling  "hip opening stretches"    and just do them all ?  

i would love to hear more about  : 

Quote

Yes standing can fix postural issues - but Qi needs to move, and if it can't move because you're bound up, you can't get that 'self-fixing process' to start. You never really stop stretching (because you lead a life and your body will always become bound up by whatever posture you hold most of the day).

so standing can fix posture issues ?  what about sitting meditation ?  

I wonder how will i know i have reached the self fixing stage  ?

 
also  - would you say i should wait with all stretches until i fix this knee issue ?  cause maybe for example i just do many streches than i can do the opposite of opening the hip in some way ?

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by waterdrop

[freeform]

33 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

thanks for replies  -  so just to make it clear  - you are not sure why specifically butterfly stretches caused me pain in knee even though they are suposed to fix it ? 

you probably have some shortened muscles and tension in your inner thighs and probably your hip flexors. It’s very common. 

 

35 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

I wonder how will i know i have reached the self fixing stage  ?

You’ll notice pops and clicks sudden releases and adjustments happening spontaneously as you stand. In your spine, hips, ribs - even in your skull

 

As Qi builds it creates a kind of inner pressure that massages and expands you from the inside outwards. Your joints will open, and your ‘flesh suit’ will stretch and expand. You’ll feel a lot of strange sore areas as you train.
 

38 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

also  - would you say i should wait with all stretches until i fix this knee issue ?

 

No keep doing stretches - particularly the ones I posted when you first asked. Just be gentle and soak your mind into the part of your body you’re working with. Avoid sharp pain - but soreness is ok.

 

These are good for opening the hips:

http://zenmontpellier.net/eng/lotus/lotuseng.html

[waterdrop]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

you probably have some shortened muscles and tension in your inner thighs and probably your hip flexors. It’s very common. 

  so why would the pain be in the knee than as response to the butterfly stretch ?



i wonder should i try to do wuji than now ?  and if not when i should give it a try ? 

if i do all the stereches with awerness  and not hold them long   -  than would you say the more streches  (as in the more different places streched)   the better  ?   .... or its a complicated thing where you can over stretch an area and by that causing disbalance ?  ...  (cause if that is the case it seems you need to be an expert before you start to stretch (

 

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

so why would the pain be in the knee than as response to the butterfly stretch ?

imagine a rope between your knee and your groin - but the rope is a little too short. As you butterfly open your knees, because the rope is short it pulls on the tendons that attach it to your knee - and that’s what hurts. I imagine the pain is mainly on the inside of the knees, right?

 

4 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

i wonder should i try to do wuji than now ?

Yes you can do wuji. For now keep knees from falling inward (even if you must ‘hold’ them out) - in time your knees will naturally align.

 

5 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

if i do all the stereches with awerness  and not hold them long   -  than would you say the more streches  (as in the more different places streched)   the better  ?

You could probably overdo it, just take your time and make sure you rest well too. But no, it’s unlikely you’d create imbalances if you’re sensible.

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Stretching is always important before your qigong. It will open you up just enough that your Qi can circulate and over time fix issues.

 

Instead of usual stretches, that target a certain spot and hold for a bit, there are easy relaxed movements that stretch the body out.  In the KAP program for example moving like you were hula hooping was done.  Fast, slow, small, large.. up to the person, feeling what there body needed.  Dynamic and circular.  Yet it stretched and coordinated tendons and muscles throughout the body.  

 

A bit of fluid dance/qi gong before the standing to loosen up and prepare the body might be good.  Shaking too.   

[freeform]

@thelerner Yeah those are good too. 
 

Shaking and loosening too.

 

All kinds of mobility is helpful. 
 

The hips and some other habitually ‘shortened’ muscles, however do need specific stretches as well as moving mobility work.

[waterdrop]

i think its inward  pain in the knees  - i just now started doing it again after your comment to check better but your probably right about location of pain

i remebmer that headache in the free centers merge stance in zhineneg qigong  (which i guess its considered a wuji stance?)   of concetration  VS correcting the posture  - was such a headache LOL 

 

27 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yes you can do wuji. For now keep knees from falling inward (even if you must ‘hold’ them out) - in time your knees will naturally align.

 
if i remember correctly i think in a video about qigong foundations that explains about the wuji stance damo mitchell talked about not holding yourself in the correct position  -  though im not sure what the context was

so you think i get the "self fixing"   magic  happening from wuji   -  just that it will get better if i stretch more ?

[waterdrop]

OK  chekeced maybe im wrong but it feels like the pain when i do the butterfly stretch is in center above the knee  patella   

later edit : did frog stretchs and it does make me have pain in the Medial part of the knee  (  when i mean Medial i mean  that in the right knee  i get pain in the left side of the knee  - in the outside part of it)

I wonder what the difference is  -  and if maybe butterfly stretch is harmful some how 

Edited May 1, 2020 by waterdrop

[waterdrop]

By the way the answer to my point number 2 in original post is   "YES"     wuji stance will solve all posture problems  (without a need for knowledge of all the muscles tendons streches exercises etc)    .....                   but maybe  only if you are healthy enough not to cause a lot of damage to yourself by the stance if you have some too strong posture problems  - like for example to big inner knee turning ?

[freeform]

11 hours ago, waterdrop said:

if i remember correctly i think in a video about qigong foundations that explains about the wuji stance damo mitchell talked about not holding yourself in the correct position  -  though im not sure what the context was

 

Yes - unless the posture is causing issues and pain - in which case it's fine to temporarily 'hold' until your knees get back into place

 

10 hours ago, waterdrop said:

By the way the answer to my point number 2 in original post is   "YES"     wuji stance will solve all posture problems  (without a need for knowledge of all the muscles tendons streches exercises etc)    .....                   but maybe  only if you are healthy enough not to cause a lot of damage to yourself by the stance if you have some too strong posture problems  - like for example to big inner knee turning ?

 

Not quite. My answer was 'yes - if your Qi is mobilising'... which is different.

 

Don't rush - things take time... keep doing the frog stretch and the other stretches. Keep shaking and bouncing and do loosening exercises. And keep standing in Wuji, applying the principles and releasing tension.

 

Don't be scared of discomfort - just be sensible and avoid sharp pain.

 

Take your time

 

 

[waterdrop]

I remembered now that i did overstretch  in the past  -  thats why i was probably interested in the stretching issue and that it can cause problems 

i did a lot of splits stretches   - and suddenly stopped advancing and even had decrease in flexibility  

Do you think the "hold"  itself  can help  correct the posture by itself  - or you mean that the streches with time will make my body reach that hold position ?

[freeform]

2 hours ago, waterdrop said:

Do you think the "hold"  itself  can help  correct the posture by itself  - or you mean that the streches with time will make my body reach that hold position ?

The hold is a temporary bandaid - it won’t correct the issue, but it’ll allow you to train without causing knee problems.

 

Both the qigong and your stretching and mobility work will help to loosen you up, until at some point you won’t need to hold anymore.

 

2 hours ago, waterdrop said:

 

I remembered now that i did overstretch  in the past  -  thats why i was probably interested in the stretching issue and that it can cause problems

 

Yes with qigong stretching you don’t want to hold a specific line stretched for a long time (like the rubber band being over stretched until it looses its elasticity).

 

With stretching for qigong you want to make sure you absorb your mind in the area you’re working on... your awareness has to be fully absorbed into the tissues.

This is very important.

 

You’ll notice that the stretch becomes more ‘difficult’ - or less loose and there will be a lot more stretching throughout your body if engaged with the mind in this way. This greatly increases the efficiency of opening your body.

 

And again keep away from holding a static stretch - generally there should be some movement - whether it’s a slight roll of the hip joint as you stretch your kwa - or the movement of your body to get into the end range of the stretch. 
 

This combined with the absorption of the mind into your tissues will be the most efficient and effective way to open your body and even begin to connect it together.

[doc benway]

On 4/29/2020 at 7:46 PM, waterdrop said:

i have Knee Valgus / knocked knees  / inward turning knees   issue  -  not something really extreme but enough to cause some problem in for example wuji stance

i wonder if there is a way to fix this - cause i dont want to see a PT at the moment    (wont cause of corona  and also in the past i went many times to different issues  without  success)

when i practiced zhineneg qigong  -  i was told 2 things  -  1 that doing 100 wall squats a day would heal any problem (asked about this here in different thread and apperantly the answer is its not true  https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/49918-what-are-all-the-benifits-of-wall-squats/?tab=comments#comment-902301

and  was told by someone else there (not a teacher but advanced student) that if i stand in three  centeres merge stance  - my posturue will correct itself 

So  base on that insperation  - i would like to hear peoples opinion on the matter     :    if they have some solution (execpt to  say to go to see a PT)  "traditional"  ones  -  meaning western solutions exercises etc 

or they have some taoistic solutions  like  stand in this specific stand for  2 hours a day and problem will fix itself by itself  -  do Y  for 30 minutes and it would fix itself  etc 

in short im asking :  1. do you have a solution (of any kind qigoong realted or westeren related etc)  to knocked knees  2 .  do you have some "magic"  one all solution like stand in X position and you will fix your posture intuitively etc

 

What is your approximate age and at what age did you first become aware of this? Ever have a serious knee injury? Any problems with arthritis to your knowledge?

 

[waterdrop]

32 years old  -     no problem with athritis as far as i know    -   i did have until recently (not sure when it went)    pain in hip  

i had pain in back     -  not sure what i have now ...    only thing is i got pain recently  cause i tried to do wuji and streches  like the butterfly stretch 

i still have pain in sitting bone if i sit without moving on the chair 

when i over strecthed in the past doing the splits i even found it hard to lift my leg up to ride a bicycle at the time
 

Edited May 1, 2020 by waterdrop

[waterdrop]

@freeform   i wonder with the putting the awerness thing i sometimes feel its a bit "harder"  but wonder if its not just me tensing the area on purpose to feel its different

is there a part where we need to relax the stretch ?       like relax than stretch more etc ?  

frog pose stretch is a static stretch  isnt it ?     .....   what movment part do you do or recommend ?   to move back and forth ?

Edited May 1, 2020 by waterdrop

[waterdrop]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=QfrIUVIzK00&feature=emb_title

also aonther video  where the person says the knees should be at same line as hips  - which contridicts the guy above   (skip to 6:45  where he talks about the frog  :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CujvBLqTwjI

if someone has any idea why butterfly stretch makes me have pain above the knee instead of the medial side of it  like freeform says it should be in butterfly stretch ..  and how frog pose  does make me have pain in the medial side of knee    than i would love to hear an explanation for that 

[doc benway]

I can offer a bit of a Western medical perspective if you are interested.

A small percentage of people have genu valgum because of imperfect growth of bones of the knee, usually affecting the tibia.

If there is major bony deformity, there is not much that can help this once growth is complete other than surgical re-alignment of the bone. Therapy, exercise, medicine, meditation, qigong, etc... are not likely to change the shape of the bone significantly once the bone has reached maturity, from the Western scientific perspective. Not looking to debate about this, who's right or wrong, just sharing this perspective. 

 

Another possible cause of genu valgum are related to malaglignment of the joints above or below (hip and ankle primarily).

To address the knee deformity in this case, one must address the hip or ankle deformity.

 

Another cause is soft tissue imbalance around the knee. This can be related to overly tight or loose tissues and these tissues may be limited to the knee (tight or loose ligaments) or extend beyond the knee as far as the foot, pelvis, or spine (this relates to tissues such as muscle, tendons, and fascia). These soft tissue problems can be helped through many techniques - stretching, strengthening, qigong, acupuncture, physical therapy, etc...

 

Another possibility is neurological. Nerve disorders lead to weakened muscle and thus imbalanced forces around joints leading to deformity.

 

What is important is to clarify what is the primary source of the problem (again I"m referring to the physical structure) and address that directly - is it a growth disturbance, is it a spine or hip issue, an ankle issue, tight muscle or fascia, and so forth. It is very difficult to determine that remotely. 

 

Also, one can go deeper into cause - karmic causes, emotional and psychological factors, nutritional, energetic, etc... I'm not going to get into those factors at this point.

 

I hope that is of some value.

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, waterdrop said:

i wonder with the putting the awerness thing i sometimes feel its a bit "harder"  but wonder if its not just me tensing the area on purpose to feel its different

You might be... try releasing and letting go more (while your mind is absorbed) - if it becomes easier then you’re probably adding with muscle tension.

 

Also try doing the stretches ‘wrong’ as in mind is elsewhere and then take some time and do it ‘right’ with mind absorbed and not the difference.

At first you might not notice much difference - eventually it becomes very evident... like I’ll be rotating my shoulders, but I’ll feel tissues stretch and pull all the way from my feet to the shoulders (if my mind is absorbed).

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Our bodies tend to flex and extend inwards and outwards. Flexing inwards means drawing everything forward and towards the center, so your shoulders come together in front, your palms turn backwards, and your hips and thighs turn inwards, all at once. This is a protective reflex, more common with women, especially in the hips and thighs. The opposite is to turn everything outwards, turning the palms forward, the shoulders out and back, the thighs open and the pelvis tilting up. This is an opening/exposing of the yin channels and requires different muscles than the closing.

Try alternating from the closing in on exhales and opening on inhales, standing with your hands (which will turn in and out) at your sides.

 

Post standing (zhuan zhang) strengthens the muscles used in the opening direction, especially in the hips (it's basically opening below the dantien and closing above it). Your toes grab the floor lifting the arches, opening the knees which should be at least shoulder width apart and directly above your feet. This helps to open the hips and tilt the pelvis so that your sacrum points to the ground. Your crown (baihui) should point up as you slightly push up and back from the occipital area below the base of the skull.

 

Before standing, practice the opening and breathing stretch I mentioned above, then find the neutral position and hold it in the post standing. You could just stand like this in the wuji posture (hands at side), or holding the tree, or just stand while at the computer, etc.  Some basic taiji walking with these points in mind could also help.

 

As Steve said, it could be more structural, but even so, this will strengthen the neuromuscular circuitry. Be aware of any impulse to "close up" while doing this. It might make you feel somewhat exposed at first, which I'd say is a good sign that was a contributing factor.

 

 

[edited to add part in parenthesis about opening below dt and closing above it]

Edited May 1, 2020 by Harmonious Emptiness

[freeform]

1 hour ago, waterdrop said:

is there a part where we need to relax the stretch ?       like relax than stretch more etc ?

No - not really. I mean your muscles should be relaxed anyway... but it’s not that you’re trying to get into a certain pose (like splits or some yoga pose) - so there’s no reason to try and go super deep with your stretch. Relaxing and going deeper is generally a way of extending the end range of your stretch - and that’s not the aim for Qigong. Just stretch enough to open up, and begin to get into the elasticated tissue network (through the use of absorption of mind (Ting - or listening))

 

1 hour ago, waterdrop said:

frog pose stretch is a static stretch  isnt it ?     .....   what movment part do you do or recommend ?   to move back and forth ?

Exactly - back and forth, side to side - or even like someone is using your pelvis like a steering wheel... just be gentle, small, subtle movements.

 

17 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

if someone has any idea why butterfly stretch makes me have pain above the knee instead of the medial side of it  like freeform says it should be in butterfly stretch

It just depends on your body - feeling it on top of your knee in butterfly is also possible.

 

Steve gave good explanation of potential issues - but the reality is, it doesn’t matter too much. Unless of course there’s a really severe issue (which you’d probably know from general movement).

 

Even if you have some sort of bone deformity, you’d still stretch in roughly the same way - just be sensible - don’t over do it and make sure to absorb your mind in the tissues. Even if there’s an issue with the bone or the tendon attachment point, over time your connective tissues will re-knit around the issue.