How to find the lower dan tian ?

[waterdrop]

How to find the lower dan tian ?    (like really finding the real location and knowing you found it)

i seen about  some place you just let your awareness "sink"  by doing meditation and by that it will automatically lower itself down  until when it reaches the lower dan tian level it will "suck it up"  or something like that 

I have an inconsistent meditation practice and thats maybe why i dont get any  "achievements"   to now  but i did start to meditate 12 years ago  and did a few meditation retreats  .......   and  it doesnt seem that it should take years to just find (if someone is looking for it)  and if soo would be a shame to spend another 12 years just to find it  ......     so maybe i didnt get things right and its not just to meditate and you will find it ?

what are some ways to find it ?  how to find it ?    any detail someone wants to add on the topic is welcomed

[Earl Grey]

It's specific to your system of practice, and your consistency of practice.

 

Normally, some find it 3-4 inches behind the navel and in the middle of the body, though some say it's slightly below the navel too.

[Bindi]

Slightly below the navel and not too deep. I found that it appeared when I deliberately set out to get in touch with my emotions, a lot of stifled emotions seem to be held there. 

[anshino23]

Read Damo's books. 

[freeform]

To locate it the area, just find the right point below your navel (the acupuncture point is called Qi Hai) - and to work out the depth of it into your body, squeeze your perineum and trance a mental line up until it intersects the point below your navel.

 

Thats the location.

 

The practice of sinking your mind to that area is what you should be doing as your training - and that will (in time) give you a very visceral sense of its location.

 

It all takes time. Follow your practices - they are very carefully designed and in a specific order for a reason.

 

It’s all there in the training you’re doing. There aren’t any clever shortcuts unfortunately. 
 

Contrary to how some people think of these arts - they are very much based on time - change is gradual and takes time. It’s all very much like any other physical thing you might learn...

 

like you might know some piano theory, but it will take time for your brain and your fingers to coordinate to play a tune smoothly. 
 

Qigong is just like that - but actually quite a lot slower.

 

Thats why I find it silly when people recommend like a Qigong exercise for lungs to get over an illness - it simply doesn’t work that way... The way you make your lungs stronger is over a period of time - until they become strong and resilient.

[waterdrop]

This question is that in the training  its basically meditation   - which i already did in the past without finding any dantian 

and i understand from the training that your mind just finds the dantian and "locks on" to it when you do the meditation ....

and i have done meditation longer and more time each meditation   than what my practices   take  ........   so im asking if i missed something more than the time thing  cause i already given this practices much more time than what the course gives  (and did each mediation for longer in that time) 

so while my practice isnt perfect in consistency  - wouldnt it make sense for example that in a retreat i did of 20 days  where i meditate all day long   with 1 hour walking meditation 1 hour sitting meditation   (instead of 15 minutes meditation)     ...  i would have found the dan tian ?    ---  this is what im asking about    if there is something more to do than just meditate to find the dan tian  ?  

If doing something A  for  B amount of time is suppose to give me C result ....     and i have been doing what i think is A  for  100xB  amount of time  without any result of C            

....  than maybe i didnt get the explantioni of A  and maybe i have been doing A wrong  .........    so that is what im asking about : about A  ..........    did i get it right that its enough to meditate and than with time you find the dantian ?   just sit 15 minutes a day  than you find it some day ? 

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by waterdrop

[anshino23]

My advice is just to continue following the program.  If you continue being in doubt... see a teacher who can help you get it. 

 

[Earl Grey]

19 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

My advice is just to continue following the program.  If you continue being in doubt... see a teacher who can help you get it. 

 

 

Worth repeating.

 

2 hours ago, freeform said:

Contrary to how some people think of these arts - they are very much based on time - change is gradual and takes time. It’s all very much like any other physical thing you might learn...

 

like you might know some piano theory, but it will take time for your brain and your fingers to coordinate to play a tune smoothly. 
 

Qigong is just like that - but actually quite a lot slower.

 

Thats why I find it silly when people recommend like a Qigong exercise for lungs to get over an illness - it simply doesn’t work that way... The way you make your lungs stronger is over a period of time - until they become strong and resilient.

 

Bears remembering for everything...

[dwai]

For me, I first became aware of it when I was doing a taijiquan form in the park, gazing into the horizon. 
 

It was a Smokey-swirling sensation that started in the lower abdomen, about 2 inches below the navel and in the center. But it wasn’t a fixed location, it moved around, like a spiraling dust devil one may see in nature. 
 

In retrospect, I wasn’t looking for it, but simply practicing a form with as much sincerity as I could, enjoying the sunset and the riot of colors in the horizon at the same time. 

[waterdrop]

What do you think made you find it dwai ?     as in :  was it relaxation ?  reaching some deep meditative state ? something else ?

Did you know about the dantian at the time  ? and that  its something people look to find ?   did you want to find it in general at that time (as opposed to in that spesific practice of " taijiquan ")  ? 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, waterdrop said:

What do you think made you find it dwai ?     as in :  was it relaxation ?  reaching some deep meditative state ? something else ?

It was deep relaxation and a temporary disappearance of “me”. Also at that point I was about 5-6 months into practicing yang style taijiquan too (was self-taught at that point). 

Quote

Did you know about the dantian at the time  ? and that  its something people look to find ?   did you want to find it in general at that time (as opposed to in that spesific practice of " taijiquan ")  ? 

I knew the term but didn’t know what it meant (ie very little technical knowledge). So I did know there was such a thing, but didn’t really know what to look for, or that people actually spend time looking for it. 
 

I know for a fact now that it happened to me because I was enjoying the process and the environment, instead of focusing on any particular thing. Relaxation in taiji is a result of the process of giving up, of emptying — no acquiring. 
 

A couple of years later, when I formally became a student of my first teacher, he told me — the harder you try to “attain” experiences in taiji the more elusive they’ll become. It is even worse if you had an experience one time, and then exert effort to “recreate” that — it won’t come back until you give up trying. I’ve found this to be 100% accurate.

Edited May 9, 2020 by dwai

[waterdrop]

46 minutes ago, dwai said:

Also at that point I was about 5-6 months into practicing yang style taijiquan too (was self-taught at that point).

 
What did practicing  taijiquan give you  ... in the  aspect of finding the lower dantian - that "regular" meditation wouldnt give you ?     was it stretches you did ?    some other stuff  ?    

 

46 minutes ago, dwai said:

the harder you try to “attain” experiences in taiji the more elusive they’ll become

Would you say finding the dantian  is an "experience"   or is it the moment you find it you can find it again very easily  ?  



DO you think  long term meditators  are finding their dantian all the time ?     for example people who train in vipassana   find thier dantian all the time ?   .....   if i go back to my meditation buddhist path and forget about qigong  will my dantian form by itself ?              

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by waterdrop

[Toni]

you can insult me as much as you want, but sometimes I wonder if this doesn't exist and it is all imagination

[waterdrop]

Toni it makes sense you think that way  -  why i believe in it is that enough teachers and long time practitioners say it exists  , that i would be very very surprised if it doesn't  and that they all lie or delusional ...   thats my reply to your comment


and about finding the dan tian   -    I just read this article , not sure if its legit or not but -   it says  there :


https://flowingzen.com/5523/where-in-the-world-is-dantian/
 

Quote

 

How to find your dantian:

The classical measurement uses a biological inch, which is the width of your own thumb. Go 3 of your own thumb-widths below your belly button, and then 2-3 thumb-widths into your abdomen, straight toward your back. That’s the center of the energy field we call dantian.

Unfortunately, going searching for dantian with your thumbs isn’t terribly helpful. If you haven’t cultivated qi at dantian correctly for a few years, there isn’t much to feel.

 

 

 

Quote

There are many other ways to cultivate dantian — One Finger Zen, Warrior Postures (zhan zhuang), and Sinew Metamorphosis, to name a few.  All of these methods help to build up the energy reserves, which in turn will all of extra energy to pool at dantian.

 
........      but i thought you first need to find the dantian  ...  than build it  ....  than store energy in it                            ...............  

but in this article it seems as if to help you find it in the first place  its better you have a high amount of qi    ? 

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by waterdrop

[Toni]

so you think it exists because some people say it? same with me until not long ago. But it is not a good argument. Some people and teachers also say that God exists. So do you think it exists just because some people say it?

Edited May 9, 2020 by Toni

[idiot_stimpy]

43 minutes ago, Toni said:

you can insult me as much as you want

 

I'm sorry I insulted you. 

 

I think energetically, the feeling of the gut is important. Observing the sensations in that area has been good for me..

[waterdrop]

I believe it exists ,  i dont say it 100% exists ....  maybe it does not exist  ,    i think it exists because it makes sense to me because it is logical to me plus many people i think know what they are talking about say it exists , plus personal experiences of "spiritual"  stuff   , plus teachers i had  think it exists and for many reasons i think they know what they are talking about .  its enough belief that you cant say it exists for sure but enough belief so you put effort in order to find out if it exists     ....  hope thats more clear than my previous reply .. there are even more reasons why i believe its true  , but it would take me it seems a few more posts to explain it in a clear way  and that would derail this thread - if you still dont "get" this point of view maybe someone else can explain it better

Edited May 9, 2020 by waterdrop

[CloudHands]

I think that feeling qi or places actually starts as a very trivial experience. One may expect to discover suddenly something incredible. No it's not like that in my experience it's strangely both obvious and subtle so that we don't pay attention, the feeling at the beginning is more like being very intimate with yourself. Like you find your center, your self.

What I want to say is that you may be on it and expect something else, something spectacular. Well not necessarily, and probably not at the beginning. Later with proper qi gong practice it will probably become a more catchy experience.

 

Something you may want to try :

Locate the place everyone has described before in the lower center of your belly with the idea of going deep inside.

Listen that place for a moment (with you attention)

Then put your expiration on that place like you were slowly heating embers and it should become much more obvious.

You can do that gently as long as you feel comfortable doing so and not for too long to begin with.

 

Ultimately my advice is go to a teacher that will provide experience, support and proper moves to help practicing

Edited May 9, 2020 by CloudHands

[forestofclarity]

Worth repeating. Not just tai chi, but for meditation, etc. 

 

I find this is a recurring thread in Taoism. It seems as though the Taoists are saying that if we align ourselves properly, we can just let go and let things unfold spontaneously. It makes sense--- if the Tao moves the whole cosmos, certainly things are going to go the way the Tao goes. How does a person (part of the whole cosmos) set oneself against the cosmic flow? 

 

6 hours ago, dwai said:

A couple of years later, when I formally became a student of my first teacher, he told me — the harder you try to “attain” experiences in taiji the more elusive they’ll become. It is even worse if you had an experience one time, and then exert effort to “recreate” that — it won’t come back until you give up trying. I’ve found this to be 100% accurate.

 

If you follow the method, you will see the result. But you have to follow the method. That is the shortcut. I thought you were enrolled in Damo's course? It is not an overnight thing. You should listen to anshino23. Don't be like the farmer that tried to "help" the corn grow by yanking on it. 

 

4 hours ago, waterdrop said:

I believe it exists ,  i dont say it 100% exists ....  maybe it does not exist  ,    

 

13 hours ago, anshino23 said:

My advice is just to continue following the program.  If you continue being in doubt... see a teacher who can help you get it. 

 

 

[idiot_stimpy]

4 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

...we can just let go and let things unfold spontaneously.

 

Acting without acting. Effortless action. Bringing this to meditation or practice, nothing needs to be done because what you are seeking has already been accomplished or obtained, it just hasn't been recognized yet. Some call this recognition pointing out instruction. 

[dwai]

6 hours ago, waterdrop said:

 
What did practicing  taijiquan give you  ... in the  aspect of finding the lower dantian - that "regular" meditation wouldnt give you ?     was it stretches you did ?    some other stuff  ?

I took up taijiquan because I found sitting down and meditating for a long time difficult when I started down this path about 20 years back. I was a martial artist and going from hard style karate to taijiquan seemed like the right thing to do. 
 

intially I was just curious, and when I started learning yang style, after about a month of practice and having learnt the entire 24-form set, I started feeling tangible results. I’d sweat profusely even though it wasn’t a heavy cardio workout. And then I’d feel energy in my limbs and the whole body. Little by little it felt like my whole body was being reconnected. My mind became more tranquil and I was able to sit and meditate for longer periods of time without getting distracted. 

6 hours ago, waterdrop said:

Would you say finding the dantian  is an "experience"   or is it the moment you find it you can find it again very easily  ? 

I don’t consider finding the Dantien to be very critical to meditation. Depends on your path. If you take the path of knowledge and meditation and your mind is naturally tranquil and still, you don’t need to do dantiens, meridians etc etc. if you are like most people in the world today with propensity towards dynamic activity etc, you might find the energy path more suitable. So then you need to work on energetic cultivation etc, until your mind has stilled enough to allow meditation to happen.  

6 hours ago, waterdrop said:

 DO you think  long term meditators  are finding their dantian all the time ?     for example people who train in vipassana   find thier dantian all the time ?   .....   if i go back to my meditation buddhist path and forget about qigong  will my dantian form by itself ?              

 

It depends on the path that’s suitable for the seeker. It is not necessary to find meridians and dantiens if your path doesn’t need it. If it does, then you do. 
 

I don’t believe that dantiens need to be formed — everyone has them. But dantiens need to be developed, sealed etc if you want to explore the energy path. 
 

[小梦想]

There is inherently a problem with asking someone who has never been to space what it's like to be in space. Too many people don't understand what a dantian is never mind how to cultivate it. Unfortunately they think they do.

 

There are hundreds of books explaining what the dantian is and what it feels like, yet none of the authors can emit qi, none of them have the required development to even know they have made any progress.

The dantian does not exist in the beginning, it's merely a concept, a space ready to be cultivated. It only becomes a dantian when a substantial amount of qi is in the area. The presence of qi there, is what results in you being able to call it a dantian.

How does this feel? Do you development some  knot in the area, some hard round object? No you don't, you become aware of the dantian in the same way you are aware of your hand. It's not some magical ah ha moment where you feel it strongly, if you do, it's because of blockage in the area.

 

It takes years of daily, correct practice along with the assistance of a shifu (who can actually emit qi, heat, electrical current ect) to develop the dantian though. The truth is, if your teacher cannot emit qi as described, then they most like don't have a dantian and can never help you to cultivate one. Even if by some miracle they actually have a dantian and substantial amounts qi, their channels aren't open enough to emit it, then they also cannot help you to achieve it. You need help from a teacher, otherwise just filling the dantian will take decades, and this is if you have the correct practice and sequence. Again, if your teacher can't emit qi, they most likely don't know the right sequence to teach you. Then trying to get your channels open enough for you to even use your qi to help others, will take more decades of hard work, if you have the correct practices.

Not saying all the above to be a downer, just explaining how things actually work. I took a long break from here because too many people believe the wrong things yet think, because they are the majority, they are right. 

Think about it, if all the books were right, you just have a dantian, can easily cultivate qi, then tons of people would be able to emit qi as this strong electrical current. Only a handful of westerners can though, but what they say contradicts what all the books say. And get ganged up on and eventually stop trying to help.

 

Someone just saying they have a developed lower dantian, who cannot even show you their qi ability, isn't really guna be able to help you. Anyone can say anything really, I can call myself a magical giant unicorn and say I have magical abilities, but I can't show you, because that would be giving into the ego. You know this line right?

 

It's ego to talk about your "abilities" and not show it. It's just a bluff and lotsa fluff. Oh i can do this, i could do this if i wanted to, I can do all kinds of things, i can heal any disease, I can do that. Yeah sure, strange how they only talk and never do.

 

So, how do you locate the dantian? You know where it should be because of the descriptions in the books (few inches below the navel, not as deep as most books say though), so you do your practice and breathe into it and become aware of it, even if this is only by knowing the location it's meant to be. Do this every day for 5 years and then you might have qi starting to cultivate in the area, then you can say you have a dantian. Then carry on further cultivating qi, run qi into the channels slowly slowly enlarging them, then after another 20-50 years of daily practice, you might have a dantian that is brimming with qi. If you are lucky then your channels will be open enough (if you knew the correct practices) and can emit qi, like this powerful electrical current.

 

Alternatively, find a teacher, who can take the decades i mention above and replace it with years. You cannot do this without a teacher. 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by 小梦想

[CloudHands]

3 hours ago, 小梦想 said:

Think about it, if all the books were right, you just have a dantian, can easily cultivate qi, then tons of people would be able to emit qi as this strong electrical current. Only a handful of westerners can though, but what they say contradicts what all the books say. And get ganged up on and eventually stop trying to help.

 

 

Hi !

So you know people emitting qi like electricity ?!

Can you please explain the contradiction you're talking about, that's -for me- the interesting point in your post.

Edited May 10, 2020 by CloudHands
added "please"

[Master Logray]

Dantian are usually referred to as physical locations.  They exist with or without Chi.  

[waterdrop]

@dwai   

maybe i didnt understand it right but i think that i heared in some places that neigong alchemy  is focusing on the process that go on in the body  in the "enlightenment" process    -  as in  that in buddhism you work with the mind to reach enlightment  and in  alchemy  you work with the body and mind to reach enlightenment     ? 

so in that case isnt the whole energy thing happening also in Buddhism ?  maybe not via the lower dan tian but other location(s)  instead ?  

What about the health aspect of things ?     as in sitting meditating  a lot , maybe too much ?  as in  taoism deals a lot with health of the body and healing the body  -    Buddhism not so much ?

(of course i am over simplifying things for the sake of the question )