How to find the lower dan tian ?

[Master Logray]

2 hours ago, waterdrop said:

@dwai   

maybe i didnt understand it right but i think that i heared in some places that neigong alchemy  is focusing on the process that go on in the body  in the "enlightenment" process    -  as in  that in buddhism you work with the mind to reach enlightment  and in  alchemy  you work with the body and mind to reach enlightenment     ? 

so in that case isnt the whole energy thing happening also in Buddhism ?  maybe not via the lower dan tian but other location(s)  instead ?  

What about the health aspect of things ?     as in sitting meditating  a lot , maybe too much ?  as in  taoism deals a lot with health of the body and healing the body  -    Buddhism not so much ?

(of course i am over simplifying things for the sake of the question )  

 

@waterdrop

 

Your observation is correct.  

 

Taoist always says body (Ming) and mind (Xing) are both important.  Without body being healthy, it is not possible to still the mind and life is short, so one must hurry and to keep this precious vehicle to fulfill the grand objective, preferably within one life.  The mind alchemy is more important in higher stage cultivation.  Since most people never proceed to the higher stage, they concentrate on the body. 

 

Buddhist's aims are to end sufferings, free from the vicious reincarnation and enlightenment (all are Mind things).  Body to them is a temporary vehicle (in Chinese, a stinky sac), which is secondary. 

 

These thinkings led to serious argument in the early 20th century in China.  Even today China people always wonder why Buddhist monks are quite often fat and Taoist are more often skinnier.

 

 

[dwai]

4 hours ago, waterdrop said:

@dwai   

maybe i didnt understand it right but i think that i heared in some places that neigong alchemy  is focusing on the process that go on in the body  in the "enlightenment" process    -  as in  that in buddhism you work with the mind to reach enlightment  and in  alchemy  you work with the body and mind to reach enlightenment     ? 

so in that case isnt the whole energy thing happening also in Buddhism ?  maybe not via the lower dan tian but other location(s)  instead ?  

What about the health aspect of things ?     as in sitting meditating  a lot , maybe too much ?  as in  taoism deals a lot with health of the body and healing the body  -    Buddhism not so much ?

(of course i am over simplifying things for the sake of the question )  

I’m saying that depending on your objective you may or may not require neigong//neidan etc. 

 

There are 3 categories of paths by following which one can create the conditions conducive to liberation/enlightenment  (if that is your goal). 

Of them, the only direct way is the one in which one works with the mind/consciousness. All others will only help still the body and mind so one may begin to work with their consciousness. 
 

But the only way to attain liberation is through the mind. Without working with the mind (and therefore consciousness) liberation is not possible. And the way to work with the mind is to still the mind, focus it. Like how in a tranquil river you can see the bottom, but in a turbulent river you cannot, similarly with the mind. The “bottom” of the mind is our true nature. And knowing it directly is the only way to liberation.  
 

In the case of the mind, the sources of turbulence often lie in the body and energetic system (manifesting as thoughts, emotions, feelings). Hence many people need to work with the body and energetic system to calm them down, discipline them enough to produce a tranquil mind. 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by dwai

[Zork]

7 hours ago, CloudHands said:

 

Hi !

So you know people emitting qi like electricity ?!

Can you please explain the contradiction you're talking about, that's -for me- the interesting point in your post.

The contradiction is that the LDT is represented in a simple way in books while they have no idea how to activate it and have no method described within them. His point is that if it were so simple, most dedicated practitioners would have it activated. How many people with an activated LDT do you know?

[dwai]

41 minutes ago, Zork said:

The contradiction is that the LDT is represented in a simple way in books while they have no idea how to activate it and have no method described within them. His point is that if it were so simple, most dedicated practitioners would have it activated. How many people with an activated LDT do you know?

Don’t know about cloudhands, but I know many. And they aren’t walking-talking bug zappers either  

 

It is ridiculous how some will try to make this process sound more mysterious and more difficult than it really is. 

Just do the right practice, with the right attitude and let go of the desire to find this or attain that, and it’ll be yours for the taking. These things are like a fistful of sand, the harder you try to grasp it, the quicker it will fall out of your grip. 

 

[waterdrop]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

There are 3 categories of paths by following which one can create the conditions conducive to liberation/enlightenment  (if that is your goal). 

what are the 3 categories ?  

[anshino23]

Another important point to remember is really that most people don't have a dantien. Strictly speaking, as I understand it, you can't have a dan-tien unless you have a dan and a tien. You can have a field (Tien), but to get to the Elixir (Dan) stage, you have to move through the process of internal alchemy (neidan) which is very advanced and far beyond my understanding (for now). 

 

 

 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, waterdrop said:

what are the 3 categories ?  

One is the path of knowledge — using the mind. The other is the path of energy and the third is the path of the body. 

[waterdrop]

" — using the mind " buddhim  ?    ..... " The other is the path of energy "  -  qigong neigong ? ...   and what is the path of the body ?

(of course i know this are all mixed and not purely mind or energy or body )  

[dwai]

1 hour ago, waterdrop said:

" — using the mind " buddhim  ?    ..... " The other is the path of energy "  -  qigong neigong ? ...   and what is the path of the body ?

(of course i know this are all mixed and not purely mind or energy or body )  

Using the mind means working with consciousness (not necessarily Buddhism only - my path is Advaita Vedanta). 
Working with energy - tantric path, neigong, etc.

Working with body — yoga etc. 

 

They’re not exclusive to each other but more about where one has to begin. Think of them like rungs of a ladder. Lowest rung is body, then energy and then consciousness. And it’s not always a linear journey too. Sometimes we have to step back from higher rungs to lower rungs, but sometimes we don’t  

[Zork]

13 hours ago, dwai said:

Don’t know about cloudhands, but I know many. And they aren’t walking-talking bug zappers either

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

What is yours? Hearsay? Seriously?

 

You mention something that can't be backed up. Why mention it on the first place?

Edited May 11, 2020 by Zork

[小梦想]

21 hours ago, CloudHands said:

 

Hi !

So you know people emitting qi like electricity ?!

Can you please explain the contradiction you're talking about, that's -for me- the interesting point in your post.

 

The contradiction has been wonderfully pointed out by Dwai.

He knows many people who have a filled, activated lower dantian but they aren't walking talking bug zappers. Yeah sure, they have a full dantian, they have open channels. Strangely cannot emit qi, hmmmm, everyone I know who has a dantian and open channels can emit qi. Not just one lineage either, but know at least 5 different lineages (all in china, hidden and not really public) who have the correct methods to develop the dantian. For all of them, being able to emit qi, strong electrical current, is the min requirement to show your dantian is full and channels are sufficiently open.

 

I know a good 30-40 different masters, advanced students who can all emit qi, different lineages, different methods, yet they all have one thing in common. They can all demonstrate that their dantians are full, their channels are open.

Despite using different methods, they all follow the same procedure to get this accomplished. This procedure is not known in the west but oh boy, these people, these "masters" all have active full dantians.

 

Saying stuff means nothing. I know plently of well known authors/qigong "masters" who all teach the methods to activate the dantian, to open the channels, yet none of them have accomplished this themselves. They openly say their dantian is active, but cannot emit qi, really?

Thinking electric qi is some siddhi that you develop from secret methods is silly. Qi is electric in nature, when you have a lot  of it, it's feels like an electrical current. If you don't have much qi, then it will never feel electric.

Don't let people tell you how advanced they are. People are more often than not deluded.

 

13 hours ago, dwai said:

Don’t know about cloudhands, but I know many. And they aren’t walking-talking bug zappers either  

 

It is ridiculous how some will try to make this process sound more mysterious and more difficult than it really is. 

Just do the right practice, with the right attitude and let go of the desire to find this or attain that, and it’ll be yours for the taking. These things are like a fistful of sand, the harder you try to grasp it, the quicker it will fall out of your grip. 

 

This statement, this is why no one in the west makes progress. Having an activated dantian, open channels, means when you emit qi, it's super strong. If it's not super strong, then you know fewer than you think.

 

The process is really simple, yet really complicated. If you don't know what is supposed to happen when a dantian is truly active and channels are open, then you can easily fool yourself into thinking that you have done it.

 

When you meet and feel qi from someone who has developed their dantian to the required level for the first time, things become more clear.

 

But sure, you know better, people always know better. You know plenty of people, they are all super advanced, but cannot even emit qi. Boggles the mind really.

 

 

[小梦想]

Recently actually had an influx of people wanting to learn at a Temple.

A big group of foreigners. One guy spoke  chinese really well. Over the course of 4 weeks was talking about how amazing his system is, how amazing his shifu is and would not shut up about it.

 

They were there learning basic qigong practices, nothing advanced, advanced practices won't be taught to anyone who hasn't baishi'd and pledged their loyalty to the school. None of the masters at the temple said much, just that the practice they are learning is good for health and over time will strengthen the lungs.

 

So, this guy kept on talking about how superior his master is, how superior his practice is. Kind of makes you wonder why he came in the first place.

Either way, after a bout 4 weeks he was feeling under the weather, long term health issues that sometimes show symptoms. He asked if they could help. 

The grandmaster then said sure, ofcourse I can help and gave herbs, acupunture and projected qi into his channels. After treatment he immediately dropped to the floor, bowed and begged to be accepted as a student. From then on he wouldn't shut up about being allowed to become a tudi and learn their methods. How incredible the qi is and how it's like nothing he has ever experienced before.

Now all of a sudden his one time super advanced master seemed like a beginner compared to them. He was ready to forsake his previous teacher, and dedicate his life to this practice.

People always talk about how advanced their teacher or system is until they meet someone who has real development. Then they know, then they understand. 

So, people don't just walk around showing off their qi, they use it to help others. It's another tool to help and treat patients, not something to show off, but something that can be shown anytime if asked politely.

 

How many people in the west with their active dantians can do the same? We need to get over this mindset that electric qi is this super magical thing. It really isn't. It's just what you can do, and everyone can do, who has activated their dantian, filled it and opened their channels enough. It's a byproduct of correct cultivation when you follow the schools who focus on dantian development.

if you have qi, you can use intent to guide it, if you have a lot, it feels really strong. If it doesn't feel really strong, then you don't have much. It's a hard truth to accept, but not accepting it will result in years and years of practice without any results.

Edited May 11, 2020 by 小梦想

[freeform]

@waterdrop In answer to your question - why you didn't find the dantien in years of meditative practice...

 

The simple answer is - because you weren't looking for it

 

The complex answer -

 

1) 'meditation' is a big fuzzy term... mindfulness, anapanasati, vipassana, 'angel meditations', 'guided meditations' are all called meditation - but anything could be called meditation... They all have different aims and purposes.

 

2) You technically don't have a dantien yet... you have a tien or a 'field' (some people don't have a tien even). What you're looking for is a very subtle thing in the beginning. It's like a very subtle 'notch', that your mind may be able to latch onto. Or you might not have anything to latch onto - you might just have a blind spot there.

 

3) You don't have qi yet. Or not much 'extra qi' - which is developed through practice - and takes time + correct methods + diligent practice. @dwai mentioned he discovered his after many months of taiji practice.

 

So how do you find the dantien? Keep practicing

 

It's not an immeditate thing for most people.

 

It takes time.

 

And finding it is certainly not the most important thing anyway. (practice is)

[Toni]

Maybe we should start saying that dan tian only exists in our minds

[freeform]

3 hours ago, 小梦想 said:

He knows many people who have a filled, activated lower dantian but they aren't walking talking bug zappers. Yeah sure, they have a full dantian, they have open channels. Strangely cannot emit qi, hmmmm, everyone I know who has a dantian and open channels can emit qi.

 

People have very different definitions and come from different traditions with different methods.

 

But any legitimate neigong method will develop the dantien and will develop Yang Qi.

 

Things take time though. Qi emission is by far not the first sign of developing a dantien.

 

Just keep training

 

[freeform]

1 minute ago, Toni said:

Maybe we should start saying that dan tian only exists in our minds

 

Actually - over time it becomes very physical.

 

My teacher's is like a grapefruit-sized sphere that you can feel with your hand and see it. You can feel it twist, squeeze, shake and move around in the abdominal cavity.

[CloudHands]

6 hours ago, 小梦想 said:

He knows many people who have a filled, activated lower dantian but they aren't walking talking bug zappers. Yeah sure, they have a full dantian, they have open channels. Strangely cannot emit qi, hmmmm, everyone I know who has a dantian and open channels can emit qi. Not just one lineage either, but know at least 5 different lineages (all in china, hidden and not really public) who have the correct methods to develop the dantian. For all of them, being able to emit qi, strong electrical current, is the min requirement to show your dantian is full and channels are sufficiently open.

 

I know a good 30-40 different masters, advanced students who can all emit qi, different lineages, different methods, yet they all have one thing in common. They can all demonstrate that their dantians are full, their channels are open.

 

Hi !

I think before that ultimate stage, there is long to very long stage where one starts to feel and to fill up the ldt. I think anyone will feel in time that presence inside his belly but it starts little, subtle.

There is one method specific to Yang taiji called dynamic push hands or dynamic power push hands. I will not give a description because it's very specific and would bring more useless questions than useful answers.

Thus I really think that even without that specific practice it is possible to discover and fill up the dantian by practicing more ordinary qi gong.

If no energetic blockage qi goes where the mind goes, that's what most qi gong works are about : unlock and discover your subtle being by developing your inner sensitivity.

I'm always a little surprise to see how much people focus more on some extraordinary results than on the process itself. Process that should be more linked to inner sensibility than qi accumulation for most people IMO.

 

6 hours ago, 小梦想 said:

Thinking electric qi is some siddhi that you develop from secret methods is silly. Qi is electric in nature, when you have a lot  of it, it's feels like an electrical current. If you don't have much qi, then it will never feel electric.

 

Looks like Neidan to me... but maybe ! This is a level I haven't been exposed.

 

So you have felt that electric qi (that's a question) ?

I did not. Thus I have seen and felt amazing things including distance energetic work with factual results on a 18 month old girl.

 

I see no need to blame anyone in this discussion.

 

On this video David Verdesi who studied with JC (not Jesus Christ but no hazard here) talks about the most precious thing he learnt from him. I don't relate much to that experience as I'm not christian nor particularly good at believing but one can obviously link it to other traditions. I think it's very humbling (and certainly not incompatible with meditative practices).

 

 

[CloudHands]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

 

People have very different definitions and come from different traditions with different methods.

 

But any legitimate neigong method will develop the dantien and will develop Yang Qi.

 

Things take time though. Qi emission is by far not the first sign of developing a dantien.

 

Just keep training

 

 

Same page

[dwai]

8 hours ago, Zork said:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

What is yours? Hearsay? Seriously?

 

You mention something that can't be backed up. Why mention it on the first place?

Why is it extraordinary?  

It only seems extraordinary because you think it is something elusive and secret. 

For me it’s not hearsay at all, just first hand knowledge...Direct experience. 

[dwai]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

 

People have very different definitions and come from different traditions with different methods.

 

But any legitimate neigong method will develop the dantien and will develop Yang Qi.

 

Things take time though. Qi emission is by far not the first sign of developing a dantien.

 

Just keep training

 

It’s a fallacy in stating that “Qi” is emitted. No Qi isn’t emitted, Jin is. 
 

 

[senseless virtue]

25 minutes ago, dwai said:

It’s a fallacy in stating that “Qi” is emitted. No Qi isn’t emitted, Jin is.

 

I am very confused by what you wrote because it completely contradicts what I have been taught by my teachers and sources I have read.

 

Jin or internal force is an expression of Qi. If Jin is issued, then it's Qi emitting out as a matter of fact.

 

It's a different matter whether Qi is "spent" on emission and skillful people instantly replenish whatever they might have lost.

Edited May 11, 2020 by virtue

[freeform]

12 minutes ago, dwai said:

It’s a fallacy in stating that “Qi” is emitted. No Qi isn’t emitted, Jin is. 
 

 

 

Different systems buddy

 

Neigong has a very different approach than does Taiji - and although the paths run concurrently part of the way - there are some major divergences. I know that your teacher combines things - but that's certainly not the norm.

 

Qi emission is certainly a thing - and as 小梦想 says - it's quite common in the Neigong and Alchemy circles in Asia... The most famous examples in the west being John Chang, Jiang Feng and Robert Peng. It's simply an emission of Yang Qi. And it's really not as rare as people like to claim... it's just most teachers don't appreciate attracting the influx of power-hungry young men when you become known for this sort of thing.

[Toni]

I am beginning to think this is all a big delusion: qi, meridians, dan tians, etc. What are the proofs of their existence, besides "some people say it"?

[dwai]

 

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, virtue said:

 

I am very confused by what you wrote because it completely contradicts what I have been taught by my teachers and sources I have read.

 

Jin or internal force is an expression of Qi. If Jin is issued, then it's Qi emitting out as a matter of fact.

Jin is transformed Qi. So Qi in its natural state is not emitted. The way I understand it is, Qi is like gasoline. Just like when Gasoline is burnt, power is generated and makes a vehicle move, similarly when Qi is 'burnt', Jin is generated, which is then applied. 

13 minutes ago, virtue said:

 

It's a different matter whether Qi is "spent" on emission and skillful people instantly replenish whatever they might have lost.

Yes...indeed at higher levels, one's own Qi is not expended at all. 

[dwai]

13 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Different systems buddy

 

Neigong has a very different approach than does Taiji - and although the paths run concurrently part of the way - there are some major divergences. I know that your teacher combines things - but that's certainly not the norm.

 

Qi emission is certainly a thing - and as 小梦想 says - it's quite common in the Neigong and Alchemy circles in Asia... The most famous examples in the west being John Chang, Jiang Feng and Robert Peng. It's simply an emission of Yang Qi. And it's really not as rare as people like to claim... it's just most teachers don't appreciate attracting the influx of power-hungry young men when you become known for this sort of thing.

Don't get me wrong. I've experienced directly the "electric" transmission, etc. But that is still considered Jin in our system. Not Qi per se. We can feel our own Qi but not jin, and others can feel our jin, but not qi.