How to find the lower dan tian ?

[dwai]

17 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

 Actually, i've been in china many many years. I have met countless schools, traditions, masters. They all talk a big talk, all speak of their developments, yet once they see experience the qi developed by taoist methods, they very quickly are eager to learn and stop talking about their own systems qi. 

I say taoist, but I have also met many taoist masters whose lineage no longer has be ability to develop the dantians, they lost the knowledge somewhere down the line. Kept the vocabulary though, just have none of the abilities that are meant to come.

Don't get me wrong, taiji develops many things, it's wonderful, but it doesn't develop neidan. If it did, powerful electric qi would just be normal for you. It's such a powerful tool to help new tudis develop, not using it when you can is something that would not happen.

Okay...I didn't have to go anywhere. I found my teachers in the most unexpected place after moving half-way across the world. as far as I'm concerned, 'electric qi' is a misnomer -- it is just a form of jin. 

[小梦想]

Just now, dwai said:

Okay...I didn't have to go anywhere. I found my teachers in the most unexpected place after moving half-way across the world. as far as I'm concerned, 'electric qi' is a misnomer -- it is just a form of jin. 

Truth be told, if the right knowledge was in the west, we woudn't have a need for electric qi, we would just say qi. 

 

Glad you found your teacher, still don't think your system develops neidan. Truthfully, can the advanced students easily emit qi? feel like an electric current? if they can then I will shut up, but if it's not a normal thing for students to develop, then we can safely assume what you call dantian development isn't really internal or energetic, more muscular as it is for every other Taiji master/student/adept that I have come across. There have been many actually.

Not trying to badmouth your system though, please don't misunderstand. Just gota accept that what you do and what taoist systems do are not the same. 

[小梦想]

3 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

If it's not Yang Qi, what is it? As I understand it Yang Qi feels like touching an electric fence like you describe and Yin Qi feels magnetic, and the Masters that have the ability can give both types of transmission depending on what is needed. 

Yang qi by itself is hot, yin by itself, actually I have no idea, never felt yin by itself.

Electric is equal, or roughly equal amounts of yin and yang. Without the yin the yang won't flow outside the body. Especially when you are doing contactless emission. 

 

Best not to worry too much about yin and yang, most systems should have a balance of practices to ensure you cultivate both equally.

[dwai]

 

 

 

1

17 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

Truth be told, if the right knowledge was in the west, we woudn't have a need for electric qi, we would just say qi. 

Cultural revolution did a lot of damage in mainland china. More teachers and authentic teachings were in Taiwan, etc. 

 

 

 

 

2

17 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

 

Glad you found your teacher, still don't think your system develops neidan. Truthfully, can the advanced students easily emit qi? feel like an electric current? if they can then I will shut up, but if it's not a normal thing for students to develop, then we can safely assume what you call dantian development isn't really internal or energetic, more muscular as it is for every other Taiji master/student/adept that I have come across. There have been many actually.

Like i said, not emit Qi, but jin. But yes, they can. It is not that hard to do. 

You're telling me that we develop muscular stuff, and others scoff at us saying we don't do muscular at all...more woo woo  

No, from a very early stage, we work on the dantien and our way is purely energetic. 

 

 

 

 

2

17 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

Not trying to badmouth your system though, please don't misunderstand. Just gota accept that what you do and what taoist systems do are not the same. 

I won't accept it, because I know what we do and it is a bona fide taoist system   

[forestofclarity]

I've been involved in a few internal schools, including Dwai's. Most schools are like what you say--- using soft muscle power and ground paths etc. to generate force. I was a qi skeptic before I got "lit up" by Dwai's primary teacher with no physical contact. I felt something going on, and I knew I could push against it or relax. I chose to relax and felt what I can only describe as extremely powerful qi sensations and inner energetic structures in my body. This was the point I knew this stuff wasn't BS. Other people did not necessarily "feel the qi" but they were easily manipulated with little or no contact. One of his other teachers was able to make me feel my center of gravity shift position merely by contacting our wrists. 

 

Not everyone had the same experience.  I was only there for a short time. I later took some classes with one of his students who had learned the physics but not the qi stuff. 

 

A lot of people experience qi-type sensations on Buddhist retreats-- referred to as "wind" in Buddhist terminology. These retreats involve vegetarian diets, lots of relaxation, and developing concentration. I again felt "energy" structures (primarily the lower and upper dan tien, with connective filaments) during these retreat, but is not the main focus. Other Buddhists have similar reports, but again it is not universal. 

 

I've been learning qigong type arts again, but unlike prior times, I am having some pretty strong effects. I've spent a lot of time between the time at Dwai's school and now doing Buddhist stuff, which involves a lot of relaxing and joining the mind and body.

 

Just now, 小梦想 said:

Truth be told, if the right knowledge was in the west, we woudn't have a need for electric qi, we would just say qi. 

 

Glad you found your teacher, still don't think your system develops neidan. Truthfully, can the advanced students easily emit qi? feel like an electric current? if they can then I will shut up, but if it's not a normal thing for students to develop, then we can safely assume what you call dantian development isn't really internal or energetic, more muscular as it is for every other Taiji master/student/adept that I have come across. There have been many actually.

Not trying to badmouth your system though, please don't misunderstand. Just gota accept that what you do and what taoist systems do are not the same. 

 

[小梦想]

8 minutes ago, dwai said:

Cultural revolution did a lot of damage in mainland china. More teachers and authentic teachings were in Taiwan, etc. 

Like i said, not emit Qi, but jin. But yes, they can. It is not that hard to do. 

You're telling me that we develop muscular stuff, and others scoff at us saying we don't do muscular at all...more woo woo  

No, from a very early stage, we work on the dantien and our way is purely energetic. 

I won't accept it, because I know what we do and it is a bona fide taoist system   

Not that hard to do ay? Everything besides this seems reasonable. Doesn't matter, i'll pop over to a seminar one day, come experience it for myself. No point discussing it anymore, you can't convince me and your ego won't even consider that it's not the same.

 

But Forestofemptyness kind of made it clear. Not everyone experienced the same thing, not everyone experienced the same intensity. That to me says it's not the same. Qi is savagely strong with neidan, no matter if you are sensitive to it or not, it bends you out of shape, it almost hurts at low amounts and definitely hurts at higher amounts. Everyone experiences the exact same thing and everyone is equally mindblown afterwards.

Doesn't quite sound like this is the case there. Not saying what you do isn't real, just not the same.

Edited May 11, 2020 by 小梦想

[cheya]

The way I ended up feeling the dan tian was unusual I guess. I could never really feel it ("well, maybe that's it?") for years, and then, one day, it just lit up. There was no question.  

For me it seemed to happen as a consequence of working with what I call niwan (upper dan tian I guess).  Niwan got so lit that the energy seemed to move down to dan tian and lit that up. Now they regularly light up at the same time (but not always). I don't try to "do" anything with the dan tian, just observe.  Once a dan tian lights up for you, there is no longer any question if it is "real".

[dwai]

 

 

 

 

2

7 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

Not that hard to do ay? Everything besides this seems reasonable. Doesn't matter, i'll pop over to a seminar one day, come experience it for myself. No point discussing it anymore, you can't convince me and your ego won't even consider that it's not the same.

Why should my ego even play a role here? To appease your ego?  

No...I don't agree with you because I know what I do is genuine. 

Where do you live? If you're in the Chicago area, sure, I would love to meet up and exchange notes...might even take you to meet my teacher if I like you. 

7 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

 

But Forestofemptyness kind of made it clear. Not everyone experienced the same thing, not everyone experienced the same intensity. That to me says it's not the same. Qi is savagely strong with neidan, no matter if you are sensitive to it or not, it bend your out of shape, it almost hurts at low amounts and definitely hurts at higher amounts. Everyone experiences the exact same thing and everyone is equally mindblown afterwards.

Doesn't quite sound like this is the case there. Not saying what you do isn't real, just not the same.

You don't know what I do, but you say its not the same. You have to read the book before you judge it. Just sayin'  

[小梦想]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Why should my ego even play a role here? To appease your ego?  

No...I don't agree with you because I know what I do is genuine. 

Where do you live? If you're in the Chicago area, sure, I would love to meet up and exchange notes...might even take you to meet my teacher if I like you. 

You don't know what I do, but you say its not the same. You have to read the book before you judge it. Just sayin'  

Never said what you don't do is geniune, no matter what system, they do have benefits. They just aren't all the same, though you would expect them to be.

 

I live in china, but travel often, might be in the US a few times next year, will see how things go. 

I know the abilities that your system develops though, I have come across it a few times, so i know it's not the same. Something real yes, no doubt about it, not the same as the stuff an authentic neidan school develops, but again, it's ok, you seem to have also met a few authentic neidan masters so can easily and without any hesitance say it's the same.

[freeform]

 

 

 

 

59 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

@freeform Common, or universal (as per 小梦想)? IIRC, Robert Peng said he couldn't teach it because it had to do with the congenital conditions of his body (could be a misstatement I suppose). Do you think that anyone can feel yang qi when emitted to them, regardless of sensitivity, relaxation, etc.?

 

Peng is probably lying

 

Just to avoid having to teach it to people

 

In response to 'can anyone feel Yang Qi?' - yes definitely. Including animals. There's no 'tuning in' or relaxing or anything like that. It's pretty mechanistic.

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

I'm saying that you can't say "your mental model" is different from "my mental model" and therefore communication breaks down. We need to go beyond the words, to grasp at the core of what the other is saying -- especially for advanced practitioners such as yourself, that is not so hard to do

 

My teachers are quite strict on terms - for that very reason - it allows for a shared mental model - which allows reasonably accurate communication. To go beyond words, we'd need to meet in person - and then we can 'grasp at the core' - doing that over an internet forum is far too error-prone

[freeform]

49 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

Yang qi by itself is hot, yin by itself, actually I have no idea, never felt yin by itself.

Electric is equal, or roughly equal amounts of yin and yang. Without the yin the yang won't flow outside the body. Especially when you are doing contactless emission. 

 

Best not to worry too much about yin and yang, most systems should have a balance of practices to ensure you cultivate both equally.

 

Interesting.

 

For me initially Yang Qi felt like a buzzing vibration (physical but subtle)... Later heat... later like an electric shock.

 

Yin Qi initially feels like very pleasant pressure waves then very strong and painful squeezing or expansion.

[小梦想]

Just now, freeform said:

 

Interesting.

 

For me initially Yang Qi felt like a buzzing vibration (physical but subtle)... Later heat... later like an electric shock.

 

Yin Qi initially feels like very pleasant pressure waves then very strong and painful squeezing or expansion.

Was more referring to it being used on me. 

 

I feel a whole lot during meditation, couldn't say what is responsible for what though. 

[CloudHands]

1 hour ago, 小梦想 said:

100% yes, it's not some buzzing or faint tingling, it literally bends your arm out of shape, all the muscles contract. It feels like you are touching an electric fence, makes you gasp, almost hurts and if the person emitting is pushing hard it does hurt, hurts a lot.

 

Despite what Dwai says, when you emit qi, especially with physical contact emission, you feel the electricity in your own body too, your own muscles contract with the force, not just the person you are emitting into feels it.

 

Is that what you are talking about ?

 

 

 

[Zork]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Why is it extraordinary?  

It only seems extraordinary because you think it is something elusive and secret. 

For me it’s not hearsay at all, just first hand knowledge...Direct experience. 

Nope. Extraordinary because it is a claim that you have seen something very uncommon which by definition is extraordinary.

Now where is the proof?

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, Zork said:

Nope. Extraordinary because it is a claim that you have seen something very uncommon which by definition is extraordinary.

Now where is the proof?

Come meet me and I'll show you the proof  

What else do you want to see? Videos? I've posted a few in my PPF. Can you tell the difference between real "qi power" and "physical"?

Do you think you'll know the real thing if you saw it? 

[Zork]

Just now, dwai said:

Come meet me and I'll show you the proof  

What else do you want to see? Videos? I've posted a few in my PPF. Can you tell the difference between real "qi power" and "physical"?

Do you think you'll know the real thing if you saw it? 

You can't tell the difference between fa jin and fa qi.

I am 100% sure that you are misguided and have no idea what you are talking about.

[dwai]

10 minutes ago, Zork said:

You can't tell the difference between fa jin and fa qi.

I am 100% sure that you are misguided and have no idea what you are talking about.

Okay.  

[Zork]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

Come meet me and I'll show you the proof  

What else do you want to see? Videos? I've posted a few in my PPF. Can you tell the difference between real "qi power" and "physical"?

Do you think you'll know the real thing if you saw it? 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hic_Rhodus,_hic_salta

Edited May 11, 2020 by Zork

[freeform]

1 hour ago, CloudHands said:

 

Is that what you are talking about ?

 

 

 

 

No - that's Fa Jin - (expression of internal power in Taiji).

 

Fa Qi (emission of Qi) is different. Here's an example:

 

 

The first demo - of having little flakes of ash fly - that's a demo of Yin Qi emission. The bit where people wince is Yang Qi emission - which feels like an electric shock.

[dwai]

This guy is the closest I've seen in terms of articulating what I've learnt in Temple style. What you see as fa jin, is a different form of expressing the same powers. At a milder but more refined level, it looks just like what looks like the Master Zhou video. At a more martial level, it looks like the Gin Soon Chu video (though there's more than just electric/magnetic stuff that's happening with that video -- the master is actually manipulating the energy field around the individual) 

 

 

 

[CloudHands]

56 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

No - that's Fa Jin - (expression of internal power in Taiji).

 

 

Possibly but in this case he uses very different kind of Jin.

[forestofclarity]

I will say, this thread is bringing me back to the Shi Ming thread from the heady days of 2006. I think a lot of these videos look pretty fake, and I am sure most if not of them are. They strike me as personally as inauthentic, as thought he participants are acting. I spent years refining by BS detector by working with criminals, so it has some reliability to it.  The kicker to the below thread is when Buddy reveals he had a conversation with the American in the video who confirmed it was not authentic. Thomas Cleary was so impressed that he translated a book written by the person, and exclaimed that the video was an "astounding" demonstration. 

 

That is not to say that these things are not possible--- I've already experienced some things with Dwai's school as noted. 

 

Claude Levi-Strauss, the famous anthropologist, wrote about the story of Quesalid. Quesalid was a "fake shaman." In other words, he learned some tricks such as hiding arrow heads in his mouth so he could pretend to suck them out of the patient's body. The important twist was, although Quesalid knew it was fake, he actually was able to heal people and became a successful shaman. 

 

Part of perception is always subjective--- the Buddhists tell us what we see is based on our karma, so what appears to water to a human would be pus to a preta or nectar to a deva. Human beings are pattern seeking-- we see faces in snack chips as a result of the evolutionary advantages of seeing potentially dangerous patterns where none exist. Some cultures are more inclined to believe extraordinary things with little or no evidence--- Western Tibetan dharma students are a good example of this. This often happens when students are convinced that teachers can read their mind based because they make certain semi-vague statements in their teachings. This is not to say that people don't believe what they say, but you can't always believe what you see. 

 

I remain a bit skeptical overall, although I would give @freeform the benefit of the doubt based on his past honesty and apparent substantial increase in knowledge since 2006. I don't know 小梦想 sufficiently to asses his/her credibility. I doubt I will have the opportunity to see this power close any time soon. I've seen enough of the illusory nature of the world to know that Western materialist paradigms are largely inadequate. However, once the videos come out, I have to express my skepticism as well. At the end of the day, I have found that 99% of this stuff is fake (in my experience anyway). A lot of video-type effects can/have been faked--- the "innocent bystander" (aka a "plant") is the oldest con in the book.  

 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

 

No - that's Fa Jin - (expression of internal power in Taiji).

 

Fa Qi (emission of Qi) is different. Here's an example:

 

 

The first demo - of having little flakes of ash fly - that's a demo of Yin Qi emission. The bit where people wince is Yang Qi emission - which feels like an electric shock.

 

This is one of those situations where it's really hard to explain to people without an argument that begins with semantics to lineages to qualifications on who knows what before resorting to ad hominem. 

 

Yes, it's obvious faqi and fajin are different, which you've thankfully showed everyone here with these videos. Unfortunately, people saying that the two are the same thing are people I don't even bother with anymore. I've seen and felt fajin that felt like faqi, but was still fajin, and I've felt faqi. So even when this is clear, someone is going to come and say, "Oh, but..."

 

Faqi for me was when I was getting medical treatment in Singapore with a very publicly available doctor, Dr. Ho, whom I don't know if he is still alive because this was in 2014. The fajin with qi was something my teachers felt with their own teachers explicitly. 

[Bindi]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

 

No - that's Fa Jin - (expression of internal power in Taiji).

 

Fa Qi (emission of Qi) is different. Here's an example:

 

 

The first demo - of having little flakes of ash fly - that's a demo of Yin Qi emission. The bit where people wince is Yang Qi emission - which feels like an electric shock.

I’m trying to understand all these different qi emissions, what are they for apart from demonstrating some sort of energy is being emitted? Does it have healing capacity, or is it just proof of energy and shock value? 
 

 

[小梦想]

8 hours ago, dwai said:

This guy is the closest I've seen in terms of articulating what I've learnt in Temple style. What you see as fa jin, is a different form of expressing the same powers. At a milder but more refined level, it looks just like what looks like the Master Zhou video. At a more martial level, it looks like the Gin Soon Chu video (though there's more than just electric/magnetic stuff that's happening with that video -- the master is actually manipulating the energy field around the individual) 

Really sorry, but this can't even be called similar to what you can do when you develop Neidan.

What they are doing are completely different things. One requires belief and cooperation, lest you feel nothing. The other requires nothing, you will feel it.

But you are allowed to think what you do and what neidan does are the same, doesn't make you right.