How to find the lower dan tian ?

[senseless virtue]

@dwai I see your point, but I have to disagree with it.

 

It feels too much like contrived splitting hairs and compartmentalization in contrast to the traditional and liberal meaning of Qi as "energy" and such.

[dwai]

Just now, virtue said:

@dwai I see your point, but I have to disagree with it.

 

It feels too much like contrived splitting hairs and compartmentalization in contrast to the traditional and liberal meaning of Qi as "energy" and such.

That’s your prerogative. We’re all entitled to opinions  

 

I train in a system that teaches this and is effective. So I’ll stick with it. 

[freeform]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

Don't get me wrong. I've experienced directly the "electric" transmission, etc. But that is still considered Jin in our system. Not Qi per se. We can feel our own Qi but not jin, and others can feel our jin, but not qi. 

 

Ah ok! It's semantics then - your teacher/system just has a different mental model from the norm.

 

9 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

Yes...indeed at higher levels, one's own Qi is not expended at all. 

 

And incidentally - although this is a common idea in some of the newer systems, I've been warned by my teachers that this is never the case. Any direct Qi transmission will take something from you - and pass on some of your quality to the other person (and you'll absorb some of the other person's quality too).

 

It is possible to 'touch' someone's qi - whereby there's a connection - and to all intents, it looks like there's emission going on - but more accurately it's the teacher controlling your qi directly without 'giving' you any extra - so they're not depleted by it, but there is still a sort of intimate transferrence of qualities - always.

 

It's an important thing to mention because when my teacher ran a clinic for qigong deviations and qi related sicknesses, there was a steady stream of respected qi-healers from qigong hospitals coming in for treatments for really serious depletion. Deaths were not uncommon.

 

Qi emission is not something to play around with - it can be really dangerous.

[小梦想]

5 hours ago, freeform said:

 

People have very different definitions and come from different traditions with different methods.

 

But any legitimate neigong method will develop the dantien and will develop Yang Qi.

 

Things take time though. Qi emission is by far not the first sign of developing a dantien.

 

Just keep training

 

Never said it was the first sign, but definitely something you can do if you claim to have a developed lower dantian. If you can't then you are still developing it, or think you are.

 

39 minutes ago, dwai said:

It’s a fallacy in stating that “Qi” is emitted. No Qi isn’t emitted, Jin is. 
 

 

I don't even know how to respond to you. Do you thing buddy, but maybe give less advise and definitely don't make blanket statements that any Taoist system would disagree with.

 

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

Don't get me wrong. I've experienced directly the "electric" transmission, etc. But that is still considered Jin in our system. Not Qi per se. We can feel our own Qi but not jin, and others can feel our jin, but not qi. 

Based on what you say I find it hard to believe but ok. You are allowed to take over this thread and redefine terms to your hearts content. I don't think you will find many who agree with you though, will wait and see how others feel but this is my gut feeling.

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

Ah ok! It's semantics then - your teacher/system just has a different mental model from the norm.

 

It's not just semantics imho. Qi needs to be transformed into jin. So it's not simply a case of emitting Qi. Jin has to be given a property before it is transmitted (which is where then yi comes into play). 

[dwai]

9 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

Never said it was the first sign, but definitely something you can do if you claim to have a developed lower dantian. If you can't then you are still developing it, or think you are.

 

I don't even know how to respond to you. Do you thing buddy, but maybe give less advise and definitely don't make blanket statements that any Taoist system would disagree with.

 

Based on what you say I find it hard to believe but ok. You are allowed to take over this thread and redefine terms to your hearts content. I don't think you will find many who agree with you though, will wait and see how others feel but this is my gut feeling.

I'm not looking to argue with you, so best if we agree to disagree and move on, yes?  

 

[小梦想]

19 minutes ago, dwai said:

Yes...indeed at higher levels, one's own Qi is not expended at all. 

I have to disagree with this as well but curious how this works? Would you mind explaining?

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

It's not just semantics imho. Qi needs to be transformed into jin. So it's not simply a case of emitting Qi. Jin has to be given a property before it is transmitted (which is where then yi comes into play). 

 

I'm afraid without a shared mental framework it's all just words. Jin is not an aspect of any classical Neigong model that I know of - but it's fundamental in Taiji. The model your system uses is not the classical model - which is fine - and doesn't negatively impact your own training (as long as you understand your system) - but it does matter when trying to compare across with other systems.

 

 

[dwai]

14 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

I have to disagree with this as well but curious how this works? Would you mind explaining?

 

Because you don't use your own "qi" anymore at this level. There is plenty to use 'outside'. In the case of martial encounters, your opponent's field, or at a deeper level there's really no separation of self and other, only qi. Then it's like making a wave in a pool. If you are a 100 foot giant in a pool, waving your hand will send waves through the pool and affect those in it. Then it becomes really woo woo...

[小梦想]

Just now, dwai said:

 

Because you don't use your own "qi" anymore at this level. There is plenty to use 'outside'. In the case of martial encounters, your opponent's field, or at a deeper level there's really no separation of self and other, only qi. Then it's like making a wave in a pool. If you are a 100 foot giant in a pool, waving your hand will send waves through the pool and affect those in it. Then it becomes really woo woo...

You do taiji i guess. 

[dwai]

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I'm afraid without a shared mental framework it's all just words. Jin is not an aspect of any classical Neigong model that I know of - but it's fundamental in Taiji. The model your system uses is not the classical model - which is fine - and doesn't negatively impact your own training (as long as you understand your system) - but it does matter when trying to compare across with other systems.

 

 

Actually it IS the norm in Taiji. Different teachers might use different words though (also depends on different stages of development as well). 

 

The thing is, everything is essentially a mental model when it boils down to the brass tacks. Individuals (or groups of individuals) develop mental models to transmit knowledge to each other. 

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

You do taiji i guess. 

Yes.

 

P.S.Among other things  

Edited May 11, 2020 by dwai

[小梦想]

Just now, dwai said:

Yes.

Taiji doesn't really develop the dantian in the neidan sense. Your "dantian" and "dantian development" won't ever be in line with Taoist methods, neither will your vocabulary. Be worth while mentioning before answering as Taiji dantian definitions and practices are completely different. Not really developing qi, but your definition of Jin, which is muscular elasticity. 

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

Taiji doesn't really develop the dantian in the neidan sense. Your "dantian" and "dantian development" won't ever be in line with Taoist methods, neither will your vocabulary. Be worth while mentioning before answering as Taiji dantian definitions and practices are completely different. Not really developing qi, but your definition of Jin, which is muscular elasticity. 

Actually that is a huge misunderstanding of taiji development.  

The tradition of Taiji I train in covers far more than the 'quan'. It involves Shen Gong, Dao Gong, and goes beyond simply "Muscular elasticity".  

[小梦想]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Actually that is a huge misunderstanding of taiji development.  

The tradition of Taiji I train in covers far more than the 'quan'. It involves Shen Gong, Dao Gong, and goes beyond simply "Muscular elasticity".  

Have a friend who does authentic Yang style taiji in china with the direct line of yang style, been doing it 10 years. He is as strong as an ox, can throw anyone across a room. He has no dantian development to speak of in terms of Neidan though.

First time he felt qi emitted he kinda needed a time out, completely blew his mind, more so to have a good friend be the one emitting the qi and not some random master. What taji does and what real dantian development is are not the same thing. 

He also believed it was the same, can't be any different, then he saw and felt for himself. Don't get me wrong, his teacher is incredible and can do many things that I can't explain, but he doesn't have a dantian full of qi.

Just not the same thing.

Edited May 11, 2020 by 小梦想

[freeform]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

Actually it IS the norm in Taiji. Different teachers might use different words though (also depends on different stages of development as well). 

 

The thing is, everything is essentially a mental model when it boils down to the brass tacks. Individuals (or groups of individuals) develop mental models to transmit knowledge to each other. 

 

Dwai - I was quite specific and (at least attempted to be) accurate with what I said. Please read again. You've basically repeated what I said

 

[dwai]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5

8 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

Have a friend who does authentic Yang style taiji in china with the direct line of yang style, been doing it 10 years. He is as strong as an ox, can throw anyone across a room. He has no dantian development to speak of in terms of Neidan though. 

First time he felt qi emitted he kinda needed a time out, completely blew his mind, more so to have a good friend be the one emitting the qi and not some random master. What taji does and what real dantian development is are not the same thing. 

He also believed it was the same, can't be any different, then he saw and felt for himself. Don't get me wrong, his teacher is incredible and can do many things that I can't explain, but he doesn't have a dantian full of qi.

Just not the same thing.

  That's okay...seems like you've taken a small sample size and developed your mental model of what Taiji does or doesn't do. 

I know several who can not only transmit all that you attribute to "Qi transmission" but also go beyond to other forms of transmission (mind, awareness, etc) as well as other forms of transformation at a spiritual level. 

 

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Dwai - I was quite specific and (at least attempted to be) accurate with what I said. Please read again. You've basically repeated what I said

 

Yes I did  

I'm saying that you can't say "your mental model" is different from "my mental model" and therefore communication breaks down. We need to go beyond the words, to grasp at the core of what the other is saying -- especially for advanced practitioners such as yourself, that is not so hard to do  

[dwai]

Here's a free session of the grandmaster of my system sharing what this is about --

 

https://www.taichitao.tv/programs/taichi-connect-restoring-your-original-abilities-master-waysun-liao-5102020

[小梦想]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

  That's okay...seems like you've taken a small sample size and developed your mental model of what Taiji does or doesn't do. 

I know several who can not only transmit all that you attribute to "Qi transmission" but also go beyond to other forms of transmission (mind, awareness, etc) as well as other forms of transformation at a spiritual level. 

 

 Actually, i've been in china many many years. I have met countless schools, traditions, masters. They all talk a big talk, all speak of their developments, yet once they see experience the qi developed by taoist methods, they very quickly are eager to learn and stop talking about their own systems qi. 

I say taoist, but I have also met many taoist masters whose lineage no longer has be ability to develop the dantians, they lost the knowledge somewhere down the line. Kept the vocabulary though, just have none of the abilities that are meant to come.

Don't get me wrong, taiji develops many things, it's wonderful, but it doesn't develop neidan. If it did, powerful electric qi would just be normal for you. It's such a powerful tool to help new tudis develop, not using it when you can is something that would not happen.

[forestofclarity]

@freeform Common, or universal (as per 小梦想)? IIRC, Robert Peng said he couldn't teach it because it had to do with the congenital conditions of his body (could be a misstatement I suppose). Do you think that anyone can feel yang qi when emitted to them, regardless of sensitivity, relaxation, etc.? 

 

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Qi emission is certainly a thing - and as 小梦想 says - it's quite common in the Neigong and Alchemy circles in Asia... The most famous examples in the west being John Chang, Jiang Feng and Robert Peng. It's simply an emission of Yang Qi. And it's really not as rare as people like to claim... it's just most teachers don't appreciate attracting the influx of power-hungry young men when you become known for this sort of thing.

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by forestofemptiness

[小梦想]

Just now, forestofemptiness said:

@freeformCommon, or universal (as per 小梦想)? IIRC, Robert Peng said he couldn't teach it because it had to do with the congenital conditions of his body (could be a misstatement I suppose). Do you think that anyone can feel yang qi when emitted to them, regardless of sensitivity, relaxation, etc.? 

100% yes, it's not some buzzing or faint tingling, it literally bends your arm out of shape, all the muscles contract. It feels like you are touching an electric fence, makes you gasp, almost hurts and if the person emitting is pushing hard it does hurt, hurts a lot.

 

Despite what Dwai says, when you emit qi, especially with physical contact emission, you feel the electricity in your own body too, your own muscles contract with the force, not just the person you are emitting into feels it.

[Earl Grey]

Just now, 小梦想 said:

100% yes, it's not some buzzing or faint tingling, it literally bends your arm out of shape, all the muscles contract. It feels like you are touching an electric fence, makes you gasp, almost hurts and if the person emitting is pushing hard it does hurt, hurts a lot.

 

Despite what Dwai says, when you emit qi, especially with physical contact emission, you feel the electricity in your own body too, your own muscles contract with the force, not just the person you are emitting into feels it.

Confirming this with my experience with a doctor in Singapore, Dr. Ho.

[小梦想]

Why does everyone think it's yang qi being emitted? It really isn't, if only yang would burn, not feel electric.

[anshino23]

If it's not Yang Qi, what is it? As I understand it Yang Qi feels like touching an electric fence like you describe and Yin Qi feels magnetic, and the Masters that have the ability can give both types of transmission depending on what is needed.