The Skeptic thread

[Earl Grey]

33 minutes ago, Toni said:

the possibility that chi is a total delusion is too much for some of you to even consider, you prefer to be deluded

Let me also add that the possibility of qi being a delusion is zero, unless you let me use your logic in a similar manner:

 

”The possibility that the earth is flat is too much for you to consider, you prefer to be deluded.”

 

”The possibility that Franco was good for Spain is too much for you to consider, you prefer to be deluded.”

 

”The possibility that I am a super sexy beast with chest hair thicker than an afro that makes me irresistible to women is too much for you to consider, you prefer to be deluded.”

 

”The possibility that drinking Lysol or injecting it will cure covid19 is too much for you to consider, you prefer to be deluded.”

 

”The possibility that I, Toni, El Hombre con platano en sus culo, am a genius and all of you are insane, is too much for you to consider, you prefer to be deluded.”

Edited May 12, 2020 by Earl Grey

[Toni]

can i add something too?

 

”The possibility that the akashic records is bullshit is too much for you to consider, you prefer to be deluded.”

[ralis]

18 hours ago, Toni said:

After around two years involved in qigong and other asian systems of training, now I think that many people on this forum should think about being involved in a conceptual and theorical system which is many years old. Concepts like dantians, meridians or qi should be replaced by others which are not in so flagrant contradiction with modern science. It is not that I am scientificist or something, I really like the theoretical contributions of other paradigms, which can be as valid as those of modern science.

 

But the fact is that a concept like dan tian is not empirically observable by a majority of people. This means we need to believe what some "master" or "guru" say. And why should we believe them? I have had many masters and some now I know they were quite ignorant. Maybe I haven't been lucky finding the right ones. But even so, if we want to focus on empiricism, direct experience of things, and logical thinking, then we shouldn't talk about dan tians, meridians or qi. We can use, instead, concepts like blood circulation, nymph, solar plexus, human anatomy, etc.

 

This change of paradigm would not mean that qigong or taichi are not valid practices. A practice is always more important than the theory behind it. And if the practice is good then to admit that the theory behind it is not valid doesn't mean that the practice is less good. In conclusion, I think it is important to change paradigm and start using a more scientific terminology. That way we could improve our practices, our knowledge and we wouldn't take the risk of talking endlessly about things which have never existed just because some masters who are eager to sell themselves say it.

Dr. Hiroshi Motoyama, Dr. Wilhelm Reich, Dr, Valerie Hunt, all developed ways to measure the human energy field, chakras, etc.  

 

Dr. Hunt had access to telemetry equipment as well as other laboratories while she was tenured at UCLA. 
 

Dr. Reichs Bion as well as Orgone experiments are well worth reading. 
 

These are just points of reference for further research which you must do for yourself. 
 

Acupuncturists have developed methods to find points with a special instrument. 

Edited May 12, 2020 by ralis

[Earl Grey]

3 minutes ago, Toni said:

can i add something too?

 

”The possibility that the akashic records is bullshit is too much for you to consider, you prefer to be deluded.”

The possibility is not hard for me to consider, but the consistent satisfaction and accuracy from my clients and their testimonials makes the possibility lower. 😁

 

Poor basito.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Earl Grey

[ralis]

A great scene from “American Hustle.” Who ya gonna believe? 
 

 

[JohnC]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4330469/

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1357272506001890

 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11010-007-9684-2

 

https://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/276560

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0898010110385939

 

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2006.12.851

 

There are many many more.

Edited May 12, 2020 by JohnC

[doc benway]

7 hours ago, Toni said:

Some of you are focusing only in the negative side of what I said, just because my personal opinion differs from your delusions.

 

But let's do something positive. Why don't we try to give a scientific explanation of why qigong works, based on modern scientific knowledge?. That way it is not even necessary to depart from the classical view, as both paradigms can be used.

 

I really think it is possible to explain qigong with modern science. It would be a very interesting and helpful task, which could help many practitioners to advance.

 

You would love Chi Dragon but, alas, he’s been banned.

 

7 hours ago, Toni said:

Any thread in which this is done? I am very interested in reading scientific explanations of qigong

 

 

 

Search for posts by ChiDragon and ReturnDragon.

 

4 hours ago, Toni said:

the possibility that chi is a total delusion is too much for some of you to even consider, you prefer to be deluded

 

Chi is simply a word. What it points to is wide open to interpretation. To say it is a delusion is meaningless.

[Earl Grey]

What I find amusing about Toni the OP is not just his poor reasoning, but his self-deception and outright lying: here, he alleges qi is possibly a delusion, but if you look at his most recent thread complaining about Flying Phoenix, here he says

 

Quote

I just did it one month or one month and a half, while i did fragrant, which is much better, for 7 months. 

 

Which in other words acknowledges not only that he finds Fragrant qigong better, but is able to compare results between two systems, meaning qi does indeed exist for him and he is only making a troll thread here. 

 

At this point, he is approaching the level of being as annoying as WMPs and ChiDragon. 

[Zork]

On 5/11/2020 at 11:21 PM, Toni said:

After around two years involved in qigong and other asian systems of training, now I think that many people on this forum should think about being involved in a conceptual and theorical system which is many years old. Concepts like dantians, meridians or qi should be replaced by others which are not in so flagrant contradiction with modern science. It is not that I am scientificist or something, I really like the theoretical contributions of other paradigms, which can be as valid as those of modern science.

 

But the fact is that a concept like dan tian is not empirically observable by a majority of people. This means we need to believe what some "master" or "guru" say. And why should we believe them? I have had many masters and some now I know they were quite ignorant. Maybe I haven't been lucky finding the right ones. But even so, if we want to focus on empiricism, direct experience of things, and logical thinking, then we shouldn't talk about dan tians, meridians or qi. We can use, instead, concepts like blood circulation, nymph, solar plexus, human anatomy, etc.

 

This change of paradigm would not mean that qigong or taichi are not valid practices. A practice is always more important than the theory behind it. And if the practice is good then to admit that the theory behind it is not valid doesn't mean that the practice is less good. In conclusion, I think it is important to change paradigm and start using a more scientific terminology. That way we could improve our practices, our knowledge and we wouldn't take the risk of talking endlessly about things which have never existed just because some masters who are eager to sell themselves say it.

What is the point exactly? There are many systems out there that deal with energy but have radically different concepts of energy, energy centers and energy channels. The most commonly mentioned energy system in this forum is from Daoism but that doesn't mean that other approaches are wrong. Basically if it works for you, then keep practicing. Do you really need to know why and how each and every system works?

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

Do you really need to know why and how each and every system works?

 

Does anyone really need to know the ins and outs of how planes, trains, and cars work to ride them and know that they work? They just do, but your mileage may vary (pun very much intended) based on the brand and consumer reports. Likewise, focus on what fruits they yield, as we do with people who are happy with Fragrant, Flying Phoenix, and so on--which Toni beamed about in other threads before his recent antipathy. 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Earl Grey

[Zork]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Does anyone really need to know the ins and outs of how planes, trains, and cars work to ride them and know that they work? They just do, but your mileage may vary (pun very much intended) based on the brand and consumer reports. Likewise, focus on what fruits they yield, as we do with people who are happy with Fragrant, Flying Phoenix, and so on--which Toni beamed about in other threads before his recent antipathy. 

Well what i see in Toni is a case of bitterness due to a seeming lack of progress. What he faces is a dilemma: keep pressing/training or quit altogether. It is his choice to make, not mine so i will not try to influence the decision.

[Toni]

Who or what is wmps?

[Lazgrane]

6 hours ago, Zork said:

Well what i see in Toni is a case of bitterness due to a seeming lack of progress. What he faces is a dilemma: keep pressing/training or quit altogether. It is his choice to make, not mine so i will not try to influence the decision.

 

Well his choice was deciding that all these qi stuffs is bunk and people here should agree with him.

[Earl Grey]

2 hours ago, Toni said:

Who or what is wmps?

Use the search bar.

[Toni]

12 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Use the search bar.

Nothing found if i search "wmp" or "wmps"

[SirPalomides]

Use the scientific method.

[Earl Grey]

18 minutes ago, Toni said:

Nothing found if i search "wmp" or "wmps"

Search the whole forum. You didn’t search WMP correctly. I found it by using the bar properly.

[Cleansox]

On 2020-05-11 at 10:21 PM, Toni said:

After around two years involved in qigong and other asian systems of training,

Ah, a beginner 😁

On 2020-05-11 at 10:21 PM, Toni said:

, if we want to focus on empiricism, direct experience of things, and logical thinking, then we shouldn't talk about dan tians, meridians or qi. We can use, instead, concepts like blood circulation, nymph, solar plexus, human anatomy, etc.

 

Talking about jing, qi and shen is actually a focus on the direct experience of things, verbalised in a qualitative way which is in line with what is taught as qualitative science at universities. 

 

If you have a good method to work with, you can see that you are working with a lot of physiological processes:

Lymphatics 

Glympathics

Arterial baroreflex 

Exercise pressor reflex

Cerebral autoregulation 

Diaphragmatic stretch reflex 

Peripersonal space 

And so on... 

 

The problem is, while these explain most of the health benefits you get from quite a few traditions, there are traditions that don't seem to utilize them. 

And, more importantly, these physiological processes have a low explainatory value when it comes to the sensations related to the meridians, dantians, and so on. 

 

But keep up the studies, physiology is an interesting subject.