If i am 100% happy and accepting to present moment - why do anything ?

[forestofclarity]

Then what difference does it make whether the decision maker is present or not? 

 

1 hour ago, steve said:

No where, it is not a thing that can move, it is the unbounded expanse in which all things move. It does not come and go. It has no point of reference, boundary, or direction. What waxes and wanes is the ignorance.

 

[doc benway]

10 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

Then what difference does it make whether the decision maker is present or not? 

 

 

 

It only matters if you are interested in being unconditioned vs being conditioned... The difference is a matter of freedom and liberation. In Buddhist terms it’s the difference between samsara and nirvana. In Daoist terms it’s a matter of wu wei and de. Does it really matter? I guess it’s a question of does it matter to each of us?

PS - it does to me

Edited May 14, 2020 by steve

[dwai]

54 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

Then what difference does it make whether the decision maker is present or not? 

 

 

Is there a decision maker even present? 

[doc benway]

34 minutes ago, dwai said:

Is there a decision maker even present? 

 

For me, yes... most of the time.

[doc benway]

It is interesting though. I once read a study that was able to demonstrate that our neuromuscular system has already “primed itself” for action before consciousness has even made the decision to act. Nevertheless, that decision maker feels very really most of the time and should not be discounted. It’s quite a powerful illusion.

[forestofclarity]

Edited: prefer the question 
 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Is there a decision maker even present? 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by forestofemptiness

[wstein]

19 hours ago, waterdrop said:

 @wstein   I am asking about the decision making aspect of things   ,   as in why would one " explicit drive to see one "    ?

There are no decisions, there is no need. Whatever you might have decided just occurs without any explicit initiation by you.

 

One might drive to see a sunset (rather than just going outside) because driving might be part of the experience. The sunset might express arrival for instance. If there is no significance to driving, then you wouldn't do it that way.

[Cheshire Cat]

On 12/5/2020 at 1:21 AM, waterdrop said:

If i am 100%  fully  content with the peresent moment accepting whatever is .........  why would i do anything ? 

 

What about the future moment? What about death? 

 

As a human being, you're worried by death. The moment you accept a theory or the istant you get an understanding of the great unknown, you're doing something. 

Maybe you believe in reincarnation and the atman to get relief... and this is doing something. 

[forestofclarity]

21 hours ago, steve said:

 

It only matters if you are interested in being unconditioned vs being conditioned... The difference is a matter of freedom and liberation. In Buddhist terms it’s the difference between samsara and nirvana. In Daoist terms it’s a matter of wu wei and de. Does it really matter? I guess it’s a question of does it matter to each of us?

PS - it does to me

 

I mean, I don't see how unconditioned awareness would just vanish because conditioned phenomenon is arising. It seems to me that the problem is focusing on the phenomenon rather than its presence or absence, or that’s how I’ve been instructed. I may be wrong. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by forestofemptiness

[doc benway]

35 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

I mean, I don't see how unconditioned awareness would just vanish because conditioned phenomenon is arising. It seems to me that the problem is focusing on the phenomenon rather than its presence or absence, or that’s how I’ve been instructed. I may be wrong. 

 

You’re right, it doesn’t vanish but it is so subtle that the slightest mental activity or identification obscures it until it becomes very familiar and stable. At that point we are less easily disturbed.

 

It goes a bit deeper than focusing on phenomena or not. It’s also a matter of being identified with a self in all its gross and subtle forms. Maybe you include that when you refer to phenomena as that is sort of an internal phenomenon.

 

Another aspect is that it’s not so much focusing on the presence or absence of the natural state, that already implies duality. Looking for it, it is gone. It is more of a deep resting or opening and allowing it to show itself when it is ready. It’s a settling into clarity very much like sediment settling in a pond until the water is crystal clear. “I” am the sediment. My nature is the clarity.

[liminal_luke]

I don´t have much experience acting without ego (OK, any) but I´ll hazard a theory about such action anyway: the less active the decision maker, the better the decision.

[forestofclarity]

I have been looking for the self for a very long time. For me, phenomenon appear in the five basic types that also appear to our senses

--- colors, sounds, feelings, etc. I have not experienced phenomenon that does not have one or some combination of these. Accordingly, I have encountered these aspects of what I may label a self--- a voice in the head (sound), thoughts (for me, thoughts are usually a combination of pictures (color) and feelings), or a feeling of self, i.e. a "sense of self." But I have never found a self behind these. The key for me is the feeling. The feeling of self. And all of these flicker constantly. So basically the illusion is that I "feel" that I am something that I experience-- but how could that be the case? It would be like saying the eye is the table. 

 

Anyway, just thinking aloud. 

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

It goes a bit deeper than focusing on phenomena or not. It’s also a matter of being identified with a self in all its gross and subtle forms. Maybe you include that when you refer to phenomena as that is sort of an internal phenomenon.

 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

I have been looking for the self for a very long time. For me, phenomenon appear in the five basic types that also appear to our senses

--- colors, sounds, feelings, etc. I have not experienced phenomenon that does not have one or some combination of these. Accordingly, I have encountered these aspects of what I may label a self--- a voice in the head (sound), thoughts (for me, thoughts are usually a combination of pictures (color) and feelings), or a feeling of self, i.e. a "sense of self." But I have never found a self behind these. The key for me is the feeling. The feeling of self. And all of these flicker constantly. So basically the illusion is that I "feel" that I am something that I experience-- but how could that be the case? It would be like saying the eye is the table. 

 

Anyway, just thinking aloud. 

 

 

When you try to find/identify who you are, in a fraction of a second, without thinking, what do you get?

 

 

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

I have been looking for the self for a very long time. For me, phenomenon appear in the five basic types that also appear to our senses

--- colors, sounds, feelings, etc. I have not experienced phenomenon that does not have one or some combination of these. Accordingly, I have encountered these aspects of what I may label a self--- a voice in the head (sound), thoughts (for me, thoughts are usually a combination of pictures (color) and feelings), or a feeling of self, i.e. a "sense of self." But I have never found a self behind these. The key for me is the feeling. The feeling of self. And all of these flicker constantly. So basically the illusion is that I "feel" that I am something that I experience-- but how could that be the case? It would be like saying the eye is the table. 

 

Anyway, just thinking aloud. 

 

 

 

Edit - I typed this while dwai posted. So take it as my answer... very synchronistic!

🤣

 

So I look at all of the phenomena and I find nothing in particular, no self out there.

 But at the same time, everything is there. 

 

Then I turn the light back on itself...

I look at the source of my awareness directly,  not analytically, that is critical.

No images, stories, emotion.

Simply observe the observer directly.

 

The observer and the observer it is observing can’t be sustained for long.

They dissolve and that is emptiness.

But all is clear and vivid!

Nothing is missing, nothing to be added,

and in that instant is direct introduction.

 

I stick with that for as long as possible.

I maintain that clarity and presence.

That is it...

 

In our tradition they say when when you look back at the observer both dissolve in the base ... all that arises is dynamic play of energy, union of openness and awareness. That’s “self-knowing” or rigpa.

That’s where we take refuge.

That’s the lifetime practice.

 

Simple... challenging

Edited May 16, 2020 by steve

[forestofclarity]

Oh no, I see the trap there! The head is a dragon, but the tail is a snake. 

 

12 hours ago, dwai said:

When you try to find/identify who you are, in a fraction of a second, without thinking, what do you get?

 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

It is hard not to grasp at words--- same with phenomenon. I guess that is why they call it pointing rather than telling. 

 

For me, it is a process of continual refinement. I enjoy the idea of refinement. In Tibetan, nang-jang--- refining perceptions. I suppose in Taoism I might call this "daily loss." It reminds me on when I first started tai chi, and I was told to relax. "I am relaxed!" I said. And I was compared to my normal mode of complete tension. But not really relaxed. And then I found what I thought was relaxed then wasn't really relaxed. And so on, as relaxation becomes more refined, what looked previously like relaxation had a tremendous amount of tension. I am sure that what I currently call "relaxation" will be further refined. 

 

Right now, the crux of my practice is working a certain kind of grasping called "needing to stabilize." That is what I am playing with here. 

 

12 hours ago, steve said:

In our tradition they say when when you look back at the observer both dissolve in the base ... all that arises is dynamic play of energy, union of openness and awareness. That’s “self-knowing” or rigpa.

That’s where we take refuge.

That’s the lifetime practice.

 

Simple... challenging

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

Oh no, I see the trap there! The head is a dragon, but the tail is a snake. 

 

 

No trap at all  

I found that one ‘riddle’ was the key to realization. Just sitting with it on a regular basis in introspection led to the “a-ha” of the “emptiness” of the limited self. Without memory there is no self. Even gender or being human is a matter of memory. If the mind is not active (along with memory) one can’t describe (label) the self. 
 

It stands on its own, only as pure being, outside space and time. Only existence. If we stay with that presence for an extended period of time, there is an expansion which results in the Realization that the Self is just that...pure Being, empty and full of potentiality, and nothing is apart from the Self. 

But Being is also Consciousness and never deficient in any thing. So it is Bliss itself.  Hence Sat-Chit-Ananda (Being-Consciousness-Bliss).

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

It is hard not to grasp at words--- same with phenomenon. I guess that is why they call it pointing rather than telling. 

 

For me, it is a process of continual refinement. I enjoy the idea of refinement. In Tibetan, nang-jang--- refining perceptions. I suppose in Taoism I might call this "daily loss." It reminds me on when I first started tai chi, and I was told to relax. "I am relaxed!" I said. And I was compared to my normal mode of complete tension. But not really relaxed. And then I found what I thought was relaxed then wasn't really relaxed. And so on, as relaxation becomes more refined, what looked previously like relaxation had a tremendous amount of tension. I am sure that what I currently call "relaxation" will be further refined. 

 

 Beginner’s mind...

🙏🏽

 

 

4 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Right now, the crux of my practice is working a certain kind of grasping called "needing to stabilize." That is what I am playing with here. 

 

 

 

So many identities, so little time!

💀

[forestofclarity]

For me, my mind has formed strong habits of grasping. With your question, the first part (When you try to find/identify who you are, in a fraction of a second, without thinking) is an invitation to set aside thoughts and take a look. But the second part, (what do you get?) is an open invitation for the habitual thinking mind to get right back involved. The thinking mind doesn't even have to really be invited, it loves to get involved, and of course it loves to pretend it is not involved. 

 

Even worse, the thinking mind likes to make "thought images" of experiences, and it likes to pull those out either as a replacement for, or a map for further experiences. For example, let's say we were watching a sunset, and I was facing East. You say, look over here to the West. I turn around and see the sunset. Then I may start mentally talking about the sunset (oh those colors are so pretty! Reminds me of fire. Like fiery sunsets when I was a kid. Or a dragon. Puff the magic dragon. Whatever happened to that show? I used to watch it all the time. I wonder what's on TV now. I wish I was at home watching).

 

Or I may make a mental image of the sunset. The colors are just so due to the clouds, the mountains, and so on. I will then use this image either to overlay on future sunsets I see. Perhaps I will not even see the sunset, but only this mental image, or I may see the sunset with the mental image flickering on top of it like an overlay. Perhaps in future sunsets, I will ignore the differences, and only focus the similarities, thereby molding present experience into line with past (reconstructed) memory. Maybe I won't even turn West, I will see the licks of crimson in the east, compare it to my mental image, and say "close enough. I AM seeing the sunset directly." Even worse, many people aren't even aware of this ongoing mental activity.

 

Now replace the sunset with something more subtle or formless (like awareness), and it gets much, much worse (in my experience). Of course, the habits can be reduced with time and practice (Thankfully! The habitual thinking mind is exhausting once one is aware of it!). But the habits can be quite deep, and very subtle. 

 

 

20 hours ago, dwai said:

No trap at all  

 

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

For me, my mind has formed strong habits of grasping. With your question, the first part (When you try to find/identify who you are, in a fraction of a second, without thinking) is an invitation to set aside thoughts and take a look. But the second part, (what do you get?) is an open invitation for the habitual thinking mind to get right back involved. The thinking mind doesn't even have to really be invited, it loves to get involved, and of course it loves to pretend it is not involved. 

 

Even worse, the thinking mind likes to make "thought images" of experiences, and it likes to pull those out either as a replacement for, or a map for further experiences. For example, let's say we were watching a sunset, and I was facing East. You say, look over here to the West. I turn around and see the sunset. Then I may start mentally talking about the sunset (oh those colors are so pretty! Reminds me of fire. Like fiery sunsets when I was a kid. Or a dragon. Puff the magic dragon. Whatever happened to that show? I used to watch it all the time. I wonder what's on TV now. I wish I was at home watching).

 

Or I may make a mental image of the sunset. The colors are just so due to the clouds, the mountains, and so on. I will then use this image either to overlay on future sunsets I see. Perhaps I will not even see the sunset, but only this mental image, or I may see the sunset with the mental image flickering on top of it like an overlay. Perhaps in future sunsets, I will ignore the differences, and only focus the similarities, thereby molding present experience into line with past (reconstructed) memory. Maybe I won't even turn West, I will see the licks of crimson in the east, compare it to my mental image, and say "close enough. I AM seeing the sunset directly." Even worse, many people aren't even aware of this ongoing mental activity.

 

Now replace the sunset with something more subtle or formless (like awareness), and it gets much, much worse (in my experience). Of course, the habits can be reduced with time and practice (Thankfully! The habitual thinking mind is exhausting once one is aware of it!). But the habits can be quite deep, and very subtle. 

 

 

 

it took a while for me to realize that there’s no “answer” possible.
 

Haha I drove my wife nuts with asking her for this answer and she’d get angry thinking it is a trick question or a trap, because like most people, she expected to find an answer to that question. 
 

After the knowing of “I am” arose through consistent inquiry, I set out to stay focused on the “I-am-ness”. But trying to get the mind to stay on its source is like trying to turn the light of a flashlight’s bulb to shine only on itself. not possible. It felt like I was trying to balance two pencils with very narrow tips on each other at those very tips... 
Eventually,  for me,  the mind just gave up because it is not possible to maintain attention on “that” for very long. And a relaxation appeared in its place. This (source) can never become an object of knowledge, because it is that which makes knowing possible.
 

It happens in a flash! But this flash is something that keeps happening again and again until there is no need for the flash anymore. 
 

But this is a Vedantic meditation. So it doesn’t involve just yogic meditation. It wants the intellect to participate initially, so there is conviction in the practice. What it does call for is cooperation of the mind, because it is the mind itself that can provide the breakthrough. 
Realization happens only in the mind and the result is ‘no mind’, or what can be called the non-grasping mind. 

[forestofclarity]

Actually, your description here is not far off from what I have experienced via Buddhism. I put "habitual thinking mind" because in Buddhist practice I am familiar with, we do use the mind in other ways. One easy example is in Theravada practice, you develop concentration by focusing on the breath, and then go through your body bit by bit looking to see if there is anything permanent, satisfactory, or a self. In certain Tibetan Buddhist circles, there are similar meditations that are preparatory, and perhaps a series of experiential "pointing out" instructions and practices. Zen has koans, not unlike what you presented above. They have similarities, but often work differently with different emphases and areas of focus. 

 

A huge obstacle in my mind is that people often do not actually perform any experiential inquiry, because they think they already have or have heard the answer. 

 

I came across a quote the other day that I can no longer find--- it said that there must be emptiness before the Tao can gift its benevolence. Relaxing, opening, not directing--- these seem to be the keys. 

 

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 

But this is a Vedantic meditation. So it doesn’t involve just yogic meditation. It wants the intellect to participate initially, so there is conviction in the practice. What it does call for is cooperation of the mind, because it is the mind itself that can provide the breakthrough. 
Realization happens only in the mind and the result is ‘no mind’, or what can be called the non-grasping mind. 

 

[dwai]

 

11 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

A huge obstacle in my mind is that people often do not actually perform any experiential inquiry, because they think they already have or have heard the answer.

I’ve seen this too. Far too often I’ve had people try to give me answers they think is right — sort of like guessing the “correct answer”.  

 

Just because there’s a question, there must be an answer is the logic. 😂 

11 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

I came across a quote the other day that I can no longer find--- it said that there must be emptiness before the Tao can gift its benevolence. Relaxing, opening, not directing--- these seem to be the keys. 

 

It’s amazing  how many different ways there are to “get that point”... meditation will get us there, taijiquan, yoga etc.

 

But, IME, completion of knowledge is only possible after the intellect understands and cooperates. Because the mind is indeed involved. 

[silent thunder]

Some time ago, I stopped seeking answers and started living in the questioning.

 

Such contentment arose effortlessly.

 

So much energy spent in the defining, propping up and defending of answers that in my experience time and again, can not hold their timbre under the weight of their own surety.

 

“To learn which questions are unanswerable, and not to answer them: this skill is most needful in times of stress and darkness.”
― Ursula K. Le Guin, The Left Hand of Darkness

[johndoe2012]

On 5/12/2020 at 1:21 AM, waterdrop said:

If i am 100%  fully  content with the peresent moment accepting whatever is .........  why would i do anything ? 

 

Find the doer of action and see if anything changes.

[waterdrop]

If im now trying to practice  accepting everything  in my life .............       why do i act to change stuff ? 

thats maybe a better question  -      if im now happy with everything  and im happy with the temperature   : 

  should i not put the air conditioner on (Even though its 40 degrees)  ?      

i would eat i would sleep i would drink water ...  and maybe help others  -  but wont do anything for fun ?  wont go drive a car to see the sunset ?

   

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by waterdrop