If i am 100% happy and accepting to present moment - why do anything ?

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, waterdrop said:

If im now trying to practice  accepting everything  in my life .............       why do i act to change stuff ? 

 

Well, if this ^  is what you are doing ( now )   as a practice   and you are still acting to change stuff you are either being hypocritical, failing at your practice  or using wrong sentence structure .

 

4 hours ago, waterdrop said:

thats maybe a better question  -      if im now happy with everything  and im happy with the temperature   : 

 

So ..... after all the above

 

you decided to change the question .

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

  should i not put the air conditioner on (Even though its 40 degrees)  ?      

i would eat i would sleep i would drink water ...  and maybe help others  -  but wont do anything for fun ?  wont go drive a car to see the sunset ?
 

 

 

If you are happy with the temperature , no -  dont put on the air con or the heating .

 

( I mean ...... JEEEEE - ZUS !   dude !        )

 

If you are happy not eating a big Mac,  then dont eat one .  If you are happy at home and dont feel the need to drive off and look at a sunset .... then ( guess what ) ... dont do it .

 

There ya go !

 

I hope this advice helps you to sort out these difficult life decisions .

 

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Nungali

[silent thunder]

tzujan

ziran

wabi sabi

 

[Nungali]

I asked this before  - but no answer .

 

IF  ziran is ' spontaneous action '  and  spontaneous is  ; ] performed or occurring as a result of a sudden impulse or inclination and without premeditation or external stimulus '  

 

From what does it arise ?    Sudden, spontaneous, without premeditation or external (  and observable ) stimulus can be from an unaware or unenlightened stimulus  ( eg, wrath or jealousy ) .

 

No ?

 

Is tzu jan   'one's nature' or 'what is natural'  ?  This seems more interesting and relates ( I feel )  to   one's ' khvarana ' - 'archetype' , ' incantatory mission ' , 'true Will, etc   - which can be  confused or hidden as well .

 

Wabi Sabi ?    IF  one accepts one's  'limit'  or 'imperfections'  that are those that come within the boundary of one's development potential, does this not hamper development ?  A danger here  is a type of complacency that accepts limits inside one's potential of expansion.  Another danger is imagining one's potential way beyond the  boundary of one's possible  development .

 

But ... in short , one must  ACT   to develop and fulfil these ideals  ....    no ?

Edited May 19, 2020 by Nungali

[SongShuhang]

On 12.05.2020 at 2:21 AM, waterdrop said:

If i am 100%  fully  content with the peresent moment accepting whatever is .........  why would i do anything ? 

 

How do you know you are 100% happy, and not 100% lying to yourself.

Ageing, sickness, disease, pain, weakness, loss of relatives.

[waterdrop]

4 hours ago, SongShuhang said:

How do you know you are 100% happy, and not 100% lying to yourself.

 
Cause If you are 100%  happy than you accept everything you experience so you accept " Ageing, sickness, disease, pain, weakness, loss of relatives "        if you are truly happy   ....     you can sit and meditate through pain and boredom and itches and temperature and noises  etc  and not be bothered by them  , and can meditate an hour whenever   -    and can work hard for others all day and be ok with it 100% every second , and all the food you buy is 100%  for health reasons  and not eat  nothing extra thats not for your health                 (    that is  of course  just thoughts on the spot and i am not 100% sure about them  -  but just so you get the gist of things   -   maybe its still lying deep down i didnt reach that stage yet so i cant tell you for sure about it) 

But that is of course a very hard thing to achieve  , i am trying to get there with the practice of being more accepting of everything that arises ,     but im trying to see  where is the "middle way"     of things  on the road to that goal  and how close i can get to that goal without breaking or without over doing it 

So stuff like  to not do anything for fun  ,  is something i did do for short times  ( for example i think around  from a few days to a month in retreats for example)                        but than there are thoughts about how far should i  stretch things    - is having the air conditioner one  considered fun ?      

  -  For example driving  especially to see the sunset  is for  fun     ........   that is why i was very interested and asked @wstein  about it  eagerly  (i still dont get it) 

Edited May 19, 2020 by waterdrop

[Cleansox]

12 hours ago, waterdrop said:

100%  happy 

 

12 hours ago, waterdrop said:

how close i can get to that goal without breaking or without over doing it 

@wstein

1) You cannot. 

2) By having that goal, you might have broken already. 

[wstein]

23 hours ago, waterdrop said:

 
Cause If you are 100%  happy than you accept everything you experience so you accept " Ageing, sickness, disease, pain, weakness, loss of relatives "        if you are truly happy

 

   ....   

 

  -  For example driving  especially to see the sunset  is for  fun     ........   that is why i was very interested and asked @wstein  about it  eagerly  (i still dont get it) 

Being happy is just a feeling, a message that you are looking positively on your (current) situation.

It does not indicate if your current situation is actually 'good' for you.

Being fully realized is about expressing your inner nature. To the outside world, it is how 'you' respond to what is going on. I.E. what actions do you take. But really (internally) it is an automatic interaction between your inner nature and your environment. You are being you, expressing based on your inner nature. There is no way to over do being you.

 

What can be over done is to take actions that lead to something you are trying to achieve. 'Achieve' is not sourced from your inner nature but from an attempt to make the world around you different than it is. This doesn't work as you can only act, there is no guarantee of any results. The destructive cycle begins because one believes the right action will lead inevitably to a specific result. Thus one tries harder and harder to make a certain thing occur. This is in contrast to focusing on the quality of action. Is action occurring that reflects your inner nature? Being you (expressing self) is what leads to fulfillment in life, not your achievements. This way you ARE happy but not because that was your goal.

[waterdrop]

@wstein       can you give a spesific example from life ? 

for example maybe with the car and sunset ?     as in  if  i get to the car to see the sunset  - i am trying to achieve to see that sunset   - i want to achieve that pretty sight

[ilumairen]

On 5/18/2020 at 1:24 PM, waterdrop said:

If im now trying to practice  accepting everything  in my life .............       why do i act to change stuff ? 

 

Ok..

 

First, things will change.

 

Second, you're actions or non-actions of your present moment will likely affect what manifests in future moments. Just as past action and non-action effected present moment. 

 

Third, acceptance enables action more appropriate to whatever arises; it doesn't actually negate action - although non-action may come to be realized as appropriate response. 

 

When these are brought together, it kinda lays out a formula and understanding of a tantric type path - where we intentionally act to bring about change, such as "poison to medicine." It is a refining process ime, and is said to create "good karma" - which is still karma, but is more like the amending of soil and pulling of weeds which enables a garden to flourish. At this point, while one may intellectually have an idea of acceptance, and may even have some experience of it in practice, the soil isn't quite ready to spring forth in a luscious garden without some effort, so we "do." We pull weeds, amend soil, plant seeds. 

 

And when the seeds we carefully and attentively planted have sprouted, grown, and are bearing fruit we've nurtured the space of acceptances - where "nothing is to be done, and nothing is left undone." And where spontaneity, instead of habitation, naturally arises.

 

Although intellectually I have some question regarding the last sentence, as anything I verbally share is dependent upon the habitation of a learned language, and the rhythmic use of such I've personally developed over the years. For me, any time words come into play it is the expression of an ego (although not necessarily in the negative sense it is often used).

 

And to jump back to your question after so much rambling:

 

Accepting things as they are actually makes change easier to bring about, should change be desired. Accepting my stomach is growling and hungry, doesn't indicate a need to starve myself in the name of "acceptance." I accept hunger, and then go to the kitchen and make something to eat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[silent thunder]

I experience no dissonance when I act to alter conditions, or refrain from action, in regards to acceptance.

 

My draw to act is a natural expression of my acceptance to be an agent of action within co-arising conditions.

As my refraining from action is a natural expression of my acceptance that there is no draw to alter current conditions.

 

Acceptance is not reliant upon acting, not acting... it seems only reliant upon acknowledging what is.

Action or stillness do not determine acceptance... for me.

 

In this manner... wei wu wei can encompass flurry of action, or stillness, or any of the spectrum between...

 

 

[wstein]

23 hours ago, waterdrop said:

@wstein       can you give a spesific example from life ? 

for example maybe with the car and sunset ?     as in  if  i get to the car to see the sunset  - i am trying to achieve to see that sunset   - i want to achieve that pretty sight

I'm not sure what you want an example of. You seem to have provided an example.

 

I will try to guess what you seek, but as I likely won't be exactly right, ask another question.

-------

If you are see a sunset and it is resonating with you (internally), its likely you are happy.

On the other hand maybe what resonates with your inner being is driving to arrive at a sunset. In that case you would only be happy if you had driven to that sunset.

In either case of you being happy, you are just expressing that which resonates with you. You can not overdo 'being' yourself.

-------

If however you are 'trying' to 'achieve' a quality sunset, you can overdo the 'trying' and the 'achieving' even if in the end you manage to arrive at the sunset in a way that resonates with your inner being.

In the case where driving to a sunset resonates with you, overdoing the trying and achieving would look like: racing around all day to make sure you have time at the end of the day to drive to where you anticipate the sunset will be, cutting off an important conversation with your spouse in order to leave right away, driving unsafely to make sure you get to the right spot in time, fussing about the perfect viewing spot when you arrive, etc.

[waterdrop]

@wstein       your replies are great   , i get things better by each reply  - but i guess i wont get a 100%  answer to this outside of actual practice in daily life but i ask to get the most benefit that i can that is all - feel free to stop replying when you want

what about remarking people on stuff  that bother you ?    same like driving ? 

and in the driving example and the remarking example about  -  when or how do you know when you are  overdoing the "trying" and "achiving" ?

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by waterdrop

[ilumairen]

 

8 hours ago, wstein said:

If you are see a sunset and it is resonating with you (internally), its likely you are happy.

On the other hand maybe what resonates with your inner being is driving to arrive at a sunset. In that case you would only be happy if you had driven to that sunset.

In either case of you being happy, you are just expressing that which resonates with you. You can not overdo 'being' yourself.

 

Wouldn't this be a happiness still dependent on circumstances, situations, and objects? And aren't the teachings referring to something deeper - a non-dependent joy which is ever present regardless of curcumstance?

 

8 hours ago, wstein said:

If however you are 'trying' to 'achieve' a quality sunset, you can overdo the 'trying' and the 'achieving' even if in the end you manage to arrive at the sunset in a way that resonates with your inner being.

In the case where driving to a sunset resonates with you, overdoing the trying and achieving would look like: racing around all day to make sure you have time at the end of the day to drive to where you anticipate the sunset will be, cutting off an important conversation with your spouse in order to leave right away, driving unsafely to make sure you get to the right spot in time, fussing about the perfect viewing spot when you arrive, etc.

 

You've described well the subtle (or not so subtle) manic nature of grasping at things to achieve happiness. 

[ilumairen]

 

Quote

what about remarking people on stuff  that bother you ?   

 

If your happiness is dependent upon the other person changing their behavior, this would still be circumstantial happiness, and not what the teachings refer to.

 

As for speaking about issues, it is suggested one connects with the openness of their own heart, and if from this place there is still something to be said, it be presented without expectation. 

 

Quote

same like driving ? 

and in the driving example and the remarking example about  -  when or how do you know when you are  overdoing the "trying" and "achiving" ?

 

Perhaps when you sense a bit of manic-ness to your behavior, or when you sense you're uncentered and no longer responding, but reacting?

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by ilumairen
typo

[liminal_luke]

It´s my position that a person can accept the world just as it is without sitting on a log and falling into a quiescent stupor.  Now if only  I could convince Waterdrop of this fact.  Clearly I have lots of work to do if my goal is acceptance because I am not a bit accepting of Waterdrop´s stubborn pseudo-logical intransigence.  Why doesn´t he see?

 

Waterdrop has appeared in my virtual world, like an mischieviously errant angel, to show me how judgmental I am, how strongly I cling to the idea that people should be and think the way I want them to be and think.  Darn you, Waterdrop.

[forestofclarity]

The internet is good at providing little squirts of thoughts/feelings to work with. 

 

4 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

It´s my position that a person can accept the world just as it is without sitting on a log and falling into a quiescent stupor.  Now if only  I could convince Waterdrop of this fact.  Clearly I have lots of work to do if my goal is acceptance because I am not a bit accepting of Waterdrop´s stubborn pseudo-logical intransigence.  Why doesn´t he see?

 

Waterdrop has appeared in my virtual world, like an mischieviously errant angel, to show me how judgmental I am, how strongly I cling to the idea that people should be and think the way I want them to be and think.  Darn you, Waterdrop.

 

[wstein]

20 hours ago, waterdrop said:

@wstein       what about remarking people on stuff  that bother you ?    same like driving ?

Whether you consider 'bother' to be a 'problem', depends on your inner nature. Some like the external stimulation, some take that as prompting to grow, and some like to be very sure they are not the only (physical) being.

 

I'm not one of them but each to their own. I take bother to indicate there is a block to me fully and directly expressing my inner nature.

 

20 hours ago, waterdrop said:

@wstein and in the driving example and the remarking example about  -  when or how do you know when you are  overdoing the "trying" and "achiving" ?

 

Strictly speaking, if you are trying or achieving at all you are over doing it. When fully realized things are ALREADY a way you would have them be. What effort need be made at that point to make them like you wish them to be?

 

On a more practical level for us not so realized there are signs: fatigue, feeling distant, resistance (to doing it), wanting something else, thinking you would rather be doing something else, anger, agitation, thinking please not again.

[wstein]

12 hours ago, ilumairen said:

Wouldn't this be a happiness still dependent on circumstances, situations, and objects? And aren't the teachings referring to something deeper - a non-dependent joy which is ever present regardless of curcumstance?

Technically its the alignment of your circumstance and your inner nature (not the absolute circumstance). Generally being happy is an indicator of good alignment. Happiness is an emotion, but emotion itself might not be in alignment with your inner being. For most incarnated as human beings, more happiness indicates more alignment.

 

Non-dependant joy is also called bliss in some teachings I've run across. But the state of 'bliss' can also be a false endpoint of the spiritual path. A lot of humans on a spiritual journey seek that euphoric contented feeling where nothing is 'wrong'; which is often referred to as bliss. You are not this bliss, so stopping there is not being fully realized. Not 'wrong' just not as far as one can 'go'.

 

The difficulty with this topic is that as you come closer to fully expressing your inner nature, your circumstance necessarily is just a reflection of your inner nature. So dependent or not, there is no conflict (misalignment) between your inner nature and your circumstance. Eventually internal and external are the same thing, only oneness remains.

 

I have noticed in my own journey and other I know that emotion subsides as one 'realizes' and 'accepts' their true (inner) nature. A lot of emotion is a response to duality which is slowly realized as false and goes away (both duality and emotion).

 

[waterdrop]

 @wstein
 

8 hours ago, wstein said:

I'm not one of them but each to their own. I take bother to indicate there is a block to me fully and directly

expressing my inner nature.

 
(just to say again  - what you write is gold , and i get the gist of what you are saying - im trying to clarify as much as i can also your replies answer other questions i have so its nice to get that extra info - but still you gave me the main reply so feel free to stop replying even though i tag you just to make sure you see the question even if you would decide not to answer it   ) 

so for example my neighbors  is very noisy ....  to  remark or not to remark (and why)  ?   

would i take of my coat when the weather gets hot ?

when i eat would i take the chocolate i think is tasty  or it a salad ?

(and yes this are  very "open" questions/examples on purpose)
 
 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by waterdrop

[wstein]

17 hours ago, waterdrop said:

 @wstein(and yes this are  very "open" questions/examples on purpose)

Again the answers depend on your inner nature. For instance, the noisy neighbors might be really annoying and causing you health problems due to lack of sleep or you might be thankful you can be as loud as you want without worrying about the neighbors complaining.

I will make one assumption for each and indicate how a blocked, partly awake, and fully realized being might handle these situations.

1) my neighbors  is very noisy ....  to  remark or not to remark (and why)  ?   

Assumption: noisy neighbor is a potential problem

Blocked: yell at neighbor, try to make more noise than neighbor, or call police

Partly awake: go talk to neighbor about how noise is affecting you, bring noise issue up at homeowners meeting without mentioning the neighbor specifically, cast a spell to make neighbor move

Fully realized: the neighbor would always be making an acceptable amount of noise, neighbor would invite you to party If that is your sort of thing

2) would i take of my coat when the weather gets hot ?
Assumption: you would be overheated with coat on

Blocked: complain loudly about the weather, make a big scene about having to remove coat

Partly awake: not wear a coat when it's hot, take off coat if weather gets warmer

Fully realized: you always feel comfortable no matter the weather or what you are wearing

3) when i eat would i take the chocolate i think is tasty  or it a salad ?

Assumption: eating chocolate is less healthy for you than a salad

Blocked: eat the salad now and sneak the chocolate later, eat the chocolate and pretend like you are going to exercise later to make up for it

Partly awake: eat a balanced diet including salads and some chocolate

Fully realized: eat whatever calls to you whenever you want

[idiot_stimpy]

Quote

"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."

 

Accepting the present moment does not necessarily mean becoming completely passive to it in the sense that you become frozen stiff.

 

Accepting means to break the habitual pre-programmed response to certain situations. 

 

Breaking a habit is empowering as it allows more freedom of choice instead of being a slave to the subconscious mind. 

[waterdrop]

@wstein    Awesome replies like always - thanks for the extra effort  

Its great you put all three examples    -   i would like to focus on the  "fully realized"   

The   3 examples  where  me trying to understand   :    1 =  question about when to remark people   

  2 =   A case where i was riding a bus with an "advanced" (spiritually)  friend   , on a  bumpy road ,  i was worried my back would get damaged and have pain at the end of the ride  -  so tried to lift myself up a bit before bumps on the road  -    the friend told me to just accept the pain and worries and even enjoy a back massage ,,,  i did  and by the end of the ride i had zero pain  which was great ....  yet in the ride  he was sitting next to a sunny window  so he took off his coat ...    and that throw me off  a lot and confused me ,  i asked him about it  ,   and he said something along the lines of  he felt like exploring the bumps thing but didnt want to deal with the heat much at the moment (emphasis on along the lines)  

so its a question about how far we take the acceptance  and do we accept everything  (   and   all  3  examples are of course on the same thing  and are squished togther  - cause you can say not wearing a coat in a hot place can be an issue of health  like the chocolate example , and it can be an example of when to accept for example another person putting the temperature of  a room  too high  (with the air-conditioner)  ) 

3  =     about when to do actions that are purely for fun   even if its not in order to help others  or help myself so i can help others  (for example  eat a salad so im healthy so i dont get sick and than i wont be able to help others)  



*  in general im trying to figure understand more about disicon making  and acceptance of events in life  (vs acting to change them)
 

[freeform]

7 hours ago, wstein said:

Fully realized: eat whatever calls to you whenever you want

 

I'd add - 'have no pre-defined preference for what you like to eat'

[waterdrop]

On 5/20/2020 at 6:55 PM, silent thunder said:

I experience no dissonance when I act to alter conditions, or refrain from action, in regards to acceptance.

 

My draw to act is a natural expression of my acceptance to be an agent of action within co-arising conditions.

As my refraining from action is a natural expression of my acceptance that there is no draw to alter current conditions.

 

Acceptance is not reliant upon acting, not acting... it seems only reliant upon acknowledging what is.

Action or stillness do not determine acceptance... for me.

 

In this manner... wei wu wei can encompass flurry of action, or stillness, or any of the spectrum between...

@silent thunder    "My draw to act is a natural expression of my acceptance to be an agent of action within co-arising conditions."

can you expand on that  or give example (/s)   of that  or  say the same thing in different words  ?  

 

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, waterdrop said:

@wstein    Awesome replies like always - thanks for the extra effort  

Its great you put all three examples    -   i would like to focus on the  "fully realized"   

The   3 examples  where  me trying to understand   :    1 =  question about when to remark people   

  2 =   A case where i was riding a bus with an "advanced" (spiritually)  friend   , on a  bumpy road ,  i was worried my back would get damaged and have pain at the end of the ride  -  so tried to lift myself up a bit before bumps on the road  -    the friend told me to just accept the pain and worries and even enjoy a back massage ,,,  i did  and by the end of the ride i had zero pain  which was great ....  yet in the ride  he was sitting next to a sunny window  so he took off his coat ...    and that throw me off  a lot and confused me ,  i asked him about it  ,   and he said something along the lines of  he felt like exploring the bumps thing but didnt want to deal with the heat much at the moment (emphasis on along the lines)  

so its a question about how far we take the acceptance  and do we accept everything  (   and   all  3  examples are of course on the same thing  and are squished togther  - cause you can say not wearing a coat in a hot place can be an issue of health  like the chocolate example , and it can be an example of when to accept for example another person putting the temperature of  a room  too high  (with the air-conditioner)  ) 

3  =     about when to do actions that are purely for fun   even if its not in order to help others  or help myself so i can help others  (for example  eat a salad so im healthy so i dont get sick and than i wont be able to help others)  



*  in general im trying to figure understand more about disicon making  and acceptance of events in life  (vs acting to change them)
 

 

" One can easily take off one's coat when it is too warm to wear one .

 

One cannot easily  fix the bumps in the road while on a bus journey . "

 

- Tao Te Ching  Ch 84.

 

 

Spoiler