If i am 100% happy and accepting to present moment - why do anything ?

[waterdrop]

22 minutes ago, Nungali said:

" One can easily take off one's coat when it is too warm to wear one .

 

One cannot easily  fix the bumps in the road while on a bus journey . "

 

- Tao Te Ching  Ch 84.

 
probably i didnt write it  clear enough  -  i will try to clarify it more :

  im asking this as an example  just to get the idea of action vs no action   and  also  acceptance and level of acceptance of things  ,   so  my examples are not good someone can use other examples  or no example at all and just explain the concept in a way i could get it better (even if not fully - better is good) 

also  in the talk with my friend on the bus  he didnt explain it like that is the reason  - but just as something about  him wanting to experience things  and how he might in other times  choose to stay with the coat on  just in order to feel that heat sensation and be with it   .   he never said  its cause he cant do something about the bumps     -  and the  conversation started cause i lifted myself a bit up before i saw some bumps on the road  which is something to do about the bumps without needing to fix them  ( also i was even considering standing instead of sitting etc) 

[Nungali]

The 'spiritually enlightened '   ( and those with desires to be so )    never say its because they cant do something about the bumps .... well, except for me .    

 

 

[silent thunder]

2 hours ago, waterdrop said:

@silent thunder    "My draw to act is a natural expression of my acceptance to be an agent of action within co-arising conditions."

can you expand on that  or give example (/s)   of that  or  say the same thing in different words  ?  

 

Sure, how about this...

 

My acting or not acting, are both accepted equally, as part of the naturally co-arising conditions of any given situation.

 

If I don't act, I'm accepting life as it is, including my presence and awareness and no draw to act.

If I act, I'm still accepting life as it is, acceptance now includes my presence, awareness and any actions that I'm drawn to perform.  Because I am always an intrinsic part of whatever conditions are arising in life.

 

Action does not preclude Acceptance and Acceptance does not imply inaction.  Both action and non-action arise naturally.  I am part of nature, as are my actions.

 

Real life example.  (This one is about Acceptance so complete it abides beneath the threshold of conscious thought):  My Father in Law stumbles and begins to drop my 6 day old son.  Moment later, I find myself holding my son in my arms.

 

This is an example of such pure acceptance of the draw to act; that thought does not even arise, action simply flows tzujan, of itself, effortlessly.  Wei Wu Wei.  and thought only arrives to analyze it, after the fact.   A pregnant woman stumbles next to you at the bus stop, you find yourself supporting her and preventing her from falling.  Should this be interpreted as a rejection of life as it is?  Or can you accept that you are the part of conditions of life as it is in that moment which resulted in her not falling?

 

It's a subtle shift in interpreting action, but potent.  Freeing.

 

Here's another, less instinctual example, one which involves concious thought and 'choice' which is also an example from my life.

 

When walking each morning before dawn, to go to work, I often see Szuki.  On the days I see Szuki, (a local feral cat I have befriended), I will sit down and offer her a few slices of meat from my lunch.  Is this action on my part a non-acceptance of life as it is?  Is there an assumption that to act implies non acceptance? 

 

Am I not part of life as it is?  Is not my draw to act and share a meal with someone who may be hungry, not also a natural part of what is occuring in that moment? 

 

I am not separate from what occurs.  I experience life as intrinsically interwoven and thus, my presence in any situation and any action arises from me, does so as does any other force involved.

 

For me, Action is not a negation of my Acceptance of Szuki's state of hunger, or nutrition.  Nor is it a rejection of life as it is.  I'm accepting that in that moment, my presence and draw to offer the presentation of a small snack for a hungry friend. 

 

One last example: 

 

My son who is finishing 8th grade, shortly before school's were closed, witnessed three kids corner another at recess and begin giving him a hard time.  My son walked over, stood by the bullied child and intervened asking "hey, what's going on?".

"Nothing...  we're just messing around." said one.

"He seems upset, why don't you just leave him alone."  my son replied.

"This is none of your business" said another, then reached out, grabbing my son by the wrist.

 

A moment later, my son in a state of shock, realized he had the kid who grabbed his wrist, in a head lock.

 

My son released him almost instantly and then said "hey look!  I don't want to escalate anything.  Just leave it all alone."

 

They walked away.

 

 

Even if the action arising is one of opposing as in this case... for me this does not imply a rejection of what is... because we ourselves are always a part of what is, and thus accepting our actions is a natural accepting of life as it is.

Edited May 24, 2020 by silent thunder
reworded last sentence for clarity. and fixed a typo.

[wstein]

15 hours ago, waterdrop said:

@wstein  
Its great you put all three examples    -   i would like to focus on the  "fully realized"   
...
so its a question about how far we take the acceptance  and do we accept everything

...

about when to do actions that are purely for fun   even if its not in order to help others  or help myself so i can help others  (for example  eat a salad so im healthy so i dont get sick and than i wont be able to help others) 

 

You are NOT trying to understand the fully realized situation, you are trying to understand the partly awake situation (covered below).

In the Fully Realized situation there is no need to accept anything, 'take' any actions, decide anything. Whatever you might have decided to do is happening or has happened already.

There is nothing to accept, everything just is (a way that you would have it be).

 

If it is in alignment of your inner nature to help others, no actions will happen to impede you helping others. Its highly likely others will be helped without you 'doing' anything.

Don't know if you ever read the bible, but many of the healings in the new testament happened by people just touching Jseus' robes. Jesus took no action to heal them in those cases.
You would not get sick unless it is in alignment with your inner nature to be sickly.

 

 

[wstein]

15 hours ago, waterdrop said:

@wstein  
The   3 examples  where  me trying to understand   :    1 =  question about when to remark people   

  2 =   A case where i was riding a bus with an "advanced" (spiritually)  friend   , on a  bumpy road ,  i was worried my back would get damaged and have pain at the end of the ride  -  so tried to lift myself up a bit before bumps on the road  -    the friend told me to just accept the pain and worries and even enjoy a back massage ,,,  i did  and by the end of the ride i had zero pain  which was great ....  yet in the ride  he was sitting next to a sunny window  so he took off his coat ...    and that throw me off  a lot and confused me ,  i asked him about it  ,   and he said something along the lines of  he felt like exploring the bumps thing but didnt want to deal with the heat much at the moment (emphasis on along the lines)  

so its a question about how far we take the acceptance  and do we accept everything  (   and   all  3  examples are of course on the same thing  and are squished togther  - cause you can say not wearing a coat in a hot place can be an issue of health  like the chocolate example , and it can be an example of when to accept for example another person putting the temperature of  a room  too high  (with the air-conditioner)  ) 

3  =     about when to do actions that are purely for fun   even if its not in order to help others  or help myself so i can help others  (for example  eat a salad so im healthy so i dont get sick and than i wont be able to help others)  

*  in general im trying to figure understand more about disicon making  and acceptance of events in life  (vs acting to change them)
 

 

Most people in the material world are of course not fully realized yet. As such, they encounter situations that are not as they would have them be. These are what you are asking about.

 

Accepting that which is is usually beneficial. That only means you acknowledge that is the was it is. It does not mean you have to leave it that way. Say you hit your hand on the door frame and it is bleeding a lot. A good first step is to accept that your hand is bleeding and may need attention. Depending on the situation, you may attend to it or not. Should you be of mind to be healthy and there are not more pressing matters, attending to the wound is a prudent step to return your hand to health. Dealing with things as they are makes for more effective responses. True, if you deny your hand is injured because you rather be doing something else, it might still heal more or less on its own. But its hard to tend to your wound if you don't acknowledge there is an issue with your hand.

 

Fighting that which is, is a fruitless activity. It is just wasted energy. If you don't like a situation, do something about it. Or better yet, remind yourself it doesn't have to remain that way.

 

As to the bumpy road situation, worrying about the bumps hurting your back causes you to stiffen up. A stiff back is far more prone to injury (yes this has been verified). So accepting the bumps does not make them less severe, nor does it make the bumps cause less injury to your back. It does avoid additional and unnecessary injury.

 

As to fun versus helping others, did you know that fun makes you less prone to getting sick? Have you heard the announcement on airliners to put your own oxygen mask on FIRST before you try to help others? Attending to your health first makes it most likely you will be able to help others when the opportunities arise.

 

So in this intermediate place, try to START with making sure YOU are in alignment with your inner self. The rest will follow from there.

 

Becoming fully realized is about removing the blocks that are impeding your inner self from radiating forth. There is no point in worrying about the far away blocks when there are others closer. If you remove the close blocks (i.e. the internal ones) you will shine forth at least a short way. With additional realization that distance will increase.

 

[ilumairen]

20 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

Accepting the present moment does not necessarily mean becoming completely passive to it in the sense that you become frozen stiff.

 

Accepting means to break the habitual pre-programmed response to certain situations. 

 

Breaking a habit is empowering as it allows more freedom of choice instead of being a slave to the subconscious mind. 

 

My habit was, "I don't care," and leaving whatever I didn't care about alone.

 

Which makes me somewhat sympathetic to the questions of this thread.

[waterdrop]

 @silent thunder   

what would you say in case of remarking people  -    i tend to remark a lot to people   -  it seems to me as if it changes some stuff  for the better after the remark  

but it seems im overdoing it some time  ,  so i wonder how you find the balance ...  and also is there a path without remarking ?

Not sure how to ask things accurately ,     but im trying to get the whole  "going with the flow"  thingy  is    (as good as possible  so i can implement it in as many different cases as i can) the whole "spontaneous action"  thing  etc     ( i get the gist of the things  but not in a good enough way to start to implement it in life  )

Edited May 24, 2020 by waterdrop

[silent thunder]

@waterdrop

 

I wouldn't know how to direct another in where balance lies in their remarks or reactions my friend.  Other than to say, if you are lashing out in anger, or seeking to harm, time to give yourself a time out.

 

Let some time pass before acting, or speaking in rage or anger. 

 

Our balance points are unique to each of us, I suspect.  Mine likely wouldn't be yours.

 

Honestly, I often only become aware of when I've strayed out of my own balance zone, when I'm in the midst of it, or after it's played out... such is the nature of imbalanced reactions... they tumble us off center.  When I find myself out of balance, then the only thing I can do is create space and foster silence until I feel able to course correct, offer contrition where appropriate and log the event in my 'let's try and not do this again' portion of my mind.  Then take it from there.

 

Through mindfulness, and years of introspection of past actions and most importantly through attentive listening.  Listening from a desire to comprehend instead of respond... I have experienced that it's possible for me to interrupt an over-reaction. 

 

Remain silent, or offer something better than silence.  ~Pythagorus

 

I've garnered much benefit from applying this to my life, particularly in regards to the darker emotions in exchanges.

 

Lately I lean toward silence when in the midst of triggered anger.  I'll go for a walk, put headphones on with soothing music and then give myself a full day to cool off and see how things appear.  Almost invariably, the next day I find that my former sense of outrage, or anger at the event has shifted and what may have seemed worthy of anger and vitriol yesterday, is now perceived as a battle unworthy of participation, a paper tiger and am grateful if I managed to hold off in responding immediately.

 

Conversely, I seldom hesitate to express joy, appreciation, gratitude and love.

[waterdrop]

 silent thunder

not in anger actually  - vast majority of my remarks are not  ( and just to be clearer  not talking about any forum remarks i made but other stuff , where some are made in anger but many are not  )

Edited May 24, 2020 by waterdrop

[waterdrop]

@silent thunder

 

Quote

I wouldn't know how to direct another in where balance lies in their remarks or reactions my friend

what can you say about finding ones balance  ?   how to find that balance ? 

meditate a lot ?  if so how will that help ?

is the balance state  what is called "going with the flow"   or any other definition ?   how do you "Go with the flow"  ?

Edited May 24, 2020 by waterdrop

[silent thunder]

I am no master, no teacher, no role model and have not achieved balance.  I'm just a guy obsessed with consciousness in its varying forms, philosophy and poetry, who has resigned that I will not stop making mistakes in this life, but feels he just might be able to at least make better mistakes in the future.

 

So take anything I ever say as me sharing my take on things, never as me saying 'this is how things are'.  I'm no authority but my own and I only ever share my truth, not 'the truth'.

 

I have used many methods over the decades of seeking to cajole realization about my True Nature.

But I'd like to give you a reply worthy of such a potent question.

and for now, Dawn is approaching and sleep is seducing awareness.

 

I'll sleep with it and hopefully authentic words will arise tomorrow.

Your question deserves them.

 

I'm sure appreciating the conversation.  thanks to everyone involved. 

 

[awaken]

The key point is not [100%  fully  content with the peresent moment accepting whatever is]. The key point is [If].

[silent thunder]

@waterdrop  Here's a hodge of answers that arose while pondering your question of how I seek balance.

 

Walking in nature, (which includes the nature of the city where I live, or wherever I happen to find myself).

Qi Gong, Spontaneous and Formal.

Stillness, Mindfulness, and Emptiness Meditation.

Painting, Sketching, Sculpting.

 

Play:  cultivating childlike playfulness, anywhere, during any activity, work or free time.  Finding a way to engage the inner child, particularly within normally unpleasant tasks.

 

Doubt:  Ceaseless questioning and re-examining of assumptions about my actions and their motivations.  With specific attention a regarding "The Storyteller's" tendencies to assume I know why people do and say what they do in life, without knowing them, or communicating.

 

Self introspection regarding all the stories that arise in my mind when observing life.

 

Radical Release of all that is, including myself to be what it is in any given moment.

 

Emulating flowers is a great mental model for release.  Flowers do not open through diligent effort, but through complete release.

 

If I release all that is not inherently my True Nature, once all is released, what remains is my True Nature.

 

Here in a mix of these processes, I'm never balanced, but I experience states where I'm more likely to become aware when I begin to slip out of balance and may get a chance to course correct before things progress into hack and slash mode.

 

 

 

[Nungali]

On 24/05/2020 at 9:00 PM, waterdrop said:

@silent thunder

 

what can you say about finding ones balance  ?   how to find that balance ? 

meditate a lot ?  if so how will that help ?

is the balance state  what is called "going with the flow"   or any other definition ?   how do you "Go with the flow"  ?

 

First of all you have to find out about the flow and how it works .  Different systems have different flows . Take swimming for example ,  body movement ,propulsion and flotation are all part of that flow  or otherwise you are just thrashing around on the surface getting nowhere .

 

Chopping wood , 'going with the flow' is splitting with the grain , for mountain casurina it is radial, other types its across the grain, tallowwood, on  60 degrees across the grain, otherwise you be whacking it all day and do your back in, .

 

When you understand flows, systems, things 'natural' abilities and propensities, then you can you use them .  and work with them and not against them and in opposition and conflict . To those that dont understand these flows , actions  can appear magical and amazing ;

[waterdrop]

@wstein   again i started to ponder this whole concept again of accepting what is  , as some sort of major way of life , and as a major practice by itself ,    and was wondering if you have any advice about how to reach this state of fully expressing my inner nature ?  

[wstein]

On 12/3/2020 at 7:06 PM, waterdrop said:

@wstein   again i started to ponder this whole concept again of accepting what is  , as some sort of major way of life , and as a major practice by itself ,    and was wondering if you have any advice about how to reach this state of fully expressing my inner nature ?  

For me the foundation is knowing who I am.

In the beginning, as you start to get to know who you really are and a bit of awareness; one starts to notice when they are 'doing' something that is not in alignment with who they are. It can feel forced, uncomfortable, annoying, or just cause you to tune out while doing it. Obviously, one then tries to avoid doing that again. It can be hard if you have responsibilities or other people are involved.

 

As you start to fill your life (only) with activities that align/resonate with yourself, you then can (with more awareness) start to notice when you trying to make that happen. This is a doing versus non-doing (allowing) thing. You can't be fully expressing your inner nature if you are taking action based on what your brain, ego, or emotions are telling you. Though they feel like they are from inside you, they are not your inner nature. They are your tools. This part can be worked on with practices of "being present" or "in the now". What you are trying for while working on this is have your actions come from a natural (automatic) response to your environment, not from a choice.

 

Overall, try to relax and allow yourself to take action rather than allow you or someone else tell you what to do. If you are prone to guilt or shame, this is going to be very hard.

 

Something to be aware of is that most people confuse what they do with who they are. What matters is where the inspiration to act comes from. Doing and results are somewhat dependent on the environment you are in, as such they are not your inner nature.

 

Another issue for some is accepting that they are a spirit being, not a physical being. Its way harder to express your inner spirit if you don't allow yourself to feel it.

This practice can still work for a pure physical being though the results are less pronounced. If you are a physical only being, your inner nature is your personality and those aspects that make you not like anyone else.