John Chang - Jesus

[silent thunder]

I read the Bible.  Cover to cover, old and new... twice, different versions.  KJ first and another after that, forget which now.  Matters not.  Many sections I read dozens, hundreds of times...

 

Reading it was the only course of action I had, for of all the most crucial questions I ever posed to church elders and my mum, all of the most important, the most distressing and challenging... were systematically ignored, cursorily dismissed with gross over-generalized simplifications, or responded to with seemingly, wholly irrelevant non-answers.  Which was then usually followed up by accusations of my faith... claims I was disruptive (i was) and pressure to 'get out of your head and into your heart',. 'just trust god', 'if you had jesus in your heart, you would know peace, not inquiry."  All were common for me to hear in Sunday School. 

 

Questions of my Faith were common... which always struck me, for it was precisely my unflincing belief that was driving me to uncover the truths that i had faith surely must be present.   If anything, through the actions of those I knew from the Church, I steadily began to wonder if many of them possessed the faith they claimed so diligently.  "methinks she dost protest too much."  That line in Hamlet was like a bolt of lightning for me in realization of the self deception and rationalization that was so prevalent among the adults in my congregation.

 

So I finally just opened the book they all kept claiming contained all the answers.  The direct word of God.  And read it for myself.

 

  Houston... we have a problem.

 

My Mum was so proud, while it was ongoing.  "you should see his bible study!  It's so intense, he reads the bible non stop.  I think we've got a preacher on our hands."

 

If only she knew what was unfolding within me, or what was coming; she'd have ditched that bible pronto, for, once finished I'd approached her and asked...

 

Me  "have you read the Bible?"

Her "Of course!"

Me  "....                      All of it?!"

Her "Well, no.  Not all of it."

Me "I think you should.  I did and from now on... I'm done with any kind of organized Christianity."

 

Turns out the shortest route to Apostacy for me, was to read the source material myself.

[silent thunder]

Ha... another one just popped to mind...

 

"Doubt is sin."

 

Turns out... Doubt has been my most treasured and rewarding trait.

[old3bob]

I'd say knowing that we don't know (very much nor the unknowable beyond duality with a dualistic  mind)...is not doubt in the regular sense of gnawing or panicky doubt...

Edited May 26, 2020 by old3bob

[Sebastian]

How can you doubt in the existence of your Spirit though ?

 

How can you doubt in a sublime energy that somehow reconnects you to the Father, in other words the Spirit inside you ?

 

I don't proclaim to understand the Bible intellectually, but to me, it is besides the point.

 

Let the scholars argue about it, let the skeptics make fun of it, and the intellect doubt everything that's written.

 

But it's never been about the words.

 

The Holy Spirit just Is.

 

Jesus Was.

 

We have a Spirit.

 

He discovered it and called it Father.

 

Everyone has the opportunity to be with the Father, to be whole in body, mind and spirit.

 

It doesn't matter how rusty the sword of the Bible is, what matters is that you can wield it to reconnect yourself to your Spirit.

 

But you have to be willing to read from another place.

 

Put the intellect aside, wipe the dust off, and read it as a child. Offer your innocent mind to the Bible.

 

And call on the Holy Spirit to help you unlock the full potential of the words for you.

 

Without becoming fanatical about it.

 

Because there is nothing to be fanatical about Spirit, or any religion for that matter.

 

If you read like this you won't add much to your knowledge of the Bible,

 

but to your depth.

 

And with this depth,

 

you'll find you don't even need the Bible,

 

because its intent lives in you.

 

The energy is just there 

 

when you need it,

 

just like Jesus said.

 

/ Just to provide another perspective on this book.

[flowing hands]

On 5/26/2020 at 3:56 AM, Sebastian said:

just like Jesus said.

 

 

&

Edited June 24, 2020 by flowing hands

[silent thunder]

The historiocity of Jesus is utterly suspect, anecdotal at best.

By this point in the game however, for me, the physical existence of jesus the man is moot.

 

Because the influence of The Tulpa of Christ that has been created and endures along with the machinery of rest of 'that system' is well established... and quite vigorous still, though seemingly showing signs of wear among the latest generations.

 

[ilumairen]

 

12 hours ago, Sebastian said:

How can you doubt in a sublime energy that somehow reconnects you to the Father, in other words the Spirit inside you ?

 

I don't proclaim to understand the Bible intellectually, but to me, it is besides the point.

 

Let the scholars argue about it, let the skeptics make fun of it, and the intellect doubt everything that's written.

 

But it's never been about the words.

 

The Holy Spirit just Is.

 

Jesus Was.

 

We have a Spirit.

 

When I mentioned the "guiding spirit within" in catechism as a teenager, there were a few questions and much dismissal (along with a fair bit of derision). You see, the bible says Lucifer was a being of light, and how would I know if the "whisper" in my heart (only noticable when "I" didn't get to "loud" and in the way) wasn't the beguiling voice of the morning star himself. Up until this point, I believed everyone had such an inner spark, and they were just sometimes to loud to hear it. Then I realized nobody in that room knew (or had experience with) what I was referring to - including those entrusted to teach and guide me. Instead of looking within, I was instructed to let that go and follow the written word of God as presented in the bible. (I was to trust in the experience and sharing of long dead men, but not my own.)

 

Years later I was invited to lunch with a friend and a Catholic priest who was a long time friend of my friend's family, and who had watched me grow up. He was curious why I no longer attended mass, and I shared the story above with him. He asked a few more questions, and then explained to me that I was a mystic, and there were still places within the church where this was accepted and nurtured - although not in the midwest town or it's surroundings where I had grown up and was presently living...

 

In direct answer to the question you posed and I quoted above, self-doubt is taught and expected. 

 

Anyway, I'm rambling again..

[forestofclarity]

This is funny because I had a different experience. One of my catechism teachers (also in a small Midwestern town) told us that at a certain age, we should listen for the small voice. She was very precise about it, stating that often one would hear a ringing in the ears before. Others in the class had a similar experience. I never experienced any such thing. It would have been interesting if she had been your teacher. I cannot say whether the priests would have been on board or not. 

 

What I didn't learn until much later is that although externally I am very visual and thought oriented, internally I am very somatic. If she had told me to feel for a higher presence, things may have turned out differently. Other people are more visual--- they get images, etc. in their minds. 

 

31 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

When I mentioned the "guiding spirit within" in catechism as a teenager, there were a few questions and much dismissal (along with a fair bit of derision). You see, the bible says Lucifer was a being of light, and how would I know if the "whisper" in my heart (only noticable when "I" didn't get to "loud" and in the way) wasn't the beguiling voice of the morning star himself. Up until this point, I believed everyone had such an inner spark, and they were just sometimes to loud to hear it. Then I realized nobody in that room knew (or had experience with) what I was referring to - including those entrusted to teach and guide me. Instead of looking within, I was instructed to let that go and follow the written word of God as presented in the bible. (I was to trust in the experience and sharing of long dead men, but not my own.)

 

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, silent thunder said:

I read the Bible.  Cover to cover, old and new... twice, different versions.  KJ first and another after that, forget which now.  Matters not.  Many sections I read dozens, hundreds of times...

 

Reading it was the only course of action I had, for of all the most crucial questions I ever posed to church elders and my mum, all of the most important, the most distressing and challenging... were systematically ignored, cursorily dismissed with gross over-generalized simplifications, or responded to with seemingly, wholly irrelevant non-answers.  Which was then usually followed up by accusations of my faith... claims I was disruptive (i was) and pressure to 'get out of your head and into your heart',. 'just trust god', 'if you had jesus in your heart, you would know peace, not inquiry."  All were common for me to hear in Sunday School. 

 

Questions of my Faith were common... which always struck me, for it was precisely my unflincing belief that was driving me to uncover the truths that i had faith surely must be present.   If anything, through the actions of those I knew from the Church, I steadily began to wonder if many of them possessed the faith they claimed so diligently.  "methinks she dost protest too much."  That line in Hamlet was like a bolt of lightning for me in realization of the self deception and rationalization that was so prevalent among the adults in my congregation.

 

So I finally just opened the book they all kept claiming contained all the answers.  The direct word of God.  And read it for myself.

 

  Houston... we have a problem.

 

My Mum was so proud, while it was ongoing.  "you should see his bible study!  It's so intense, he reads the bible non stop.  I think we've got a preacher on our hands."

 

If only she knew what was unfolding within me, or what was coming; she'd have ditched that bible pronto, for, once finished I'd approached her and asked...

 

Me  "have you read the Bible?"

Her "Of course!"

Me  "....                      All of it?!"

Her "Well, no.  Not all of it."

Me "I think you should.  I did and from now on... I'm done with any kind of organized Christianity."

 

Turns out the shortest route to Apostacy for me, was to read the source material myself.

 

We never had a bible , nor where encouraged to read it . Even in 'religion' a subject we had every day . back then, I dont know about now. the Catholic School didnt teach from bibles, nor did we personally have one . It was ' the catholic catechism '  - basically a highly censored version of extracts .

 

I am sure YOU can guess why .     Reading the bible yourself will get you into ;trouble' without the 'leraned' there to explain it all to you

 

 

 

But apparently , reading the bible is also a great inspiration for some 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, Sebastian said:

How can you doubt in the existence of your Spirit though ?

 

How can you doubt in a sublime energy that somehow reconnects you to the Father, in other words the Spirit inside you ?

 

I don't proclaim to understand the Bible intellectually, but to me, it is besides the point.

 

Let the scholars argue about it, let the skeptics make fun of it, and the intellect doubt everything that's written.

 

But it's never been about the words.

 

The Holy Spirit just Is.

 

Jesus Was.

 

We have a Spirit.

 

He discovered it and called it Father.

 

Everyone has the opportunity to be with the Father, to be whole in body, mind and spirit.

 

It doesn't matter how rusty the sword of the Bible is, what matters is that you can wield it to reconnect yourself to your Spirit.

 

But you have to be willing to read from another place.

 

Put the intellect aside, wipe the dust off, and read it as a child. Offer your innocent mind to the Bible.

 

And call on the Holy Spirit to help you unlock the full potential of the words for you.

 

Without becoming fanatical about it.

 

Because there is nothing to be fanatical about Spirit, or any religion for that matter.

 

If you read like this you won't add much to your knowledge of the Bible,

 

but to your depth.

 

And with this depth,

 

you'll find you don't even need the Bible,

 

because its intent lives in you.

 

The energy is just there 

 

when you need it,

 

just like Jesus said.

 

/ Just to provide another perspective on this book.

 

 

I totally agree with you that for the bible to 'work' for you , you do need to 'put your intellect aside ' .

 

I have noticed that many many people who believe in and use the bible have been  successful in this .

 

[Sebastian]

Haha good point Nugali. I'm usually not the brightest raccoon in the shack myself. I guess since I'm a raccoon,  I do things differently. I eat spiritual books as good nutrition. Merely looking at them is too boring for me. Maybe it means I just like food... 

[Sebastian]

13 hours ago, ilumairen said:

Instead of looking within, I was instructed to let that go and follow the written word of God as presented in the bible

 

So trading the beauty of your own soul for a sense of security and safety weaved by the intellect.

 

This is the crux (not the cross) of the matter at least for me. Universal Spiritual Reality.

 

It exists.  And Jesus has a faint spiritual pulse for anyone to access....

 

.... something that is constantly being drowned by the noise of the world.

 

It's there, and it's as real as your experience.

 

Your inner experience is valuable, thanks for sharing.

 

[Vajra Fist]

This is shaping up to be a good thread. It's fascinating how many of us here started off with a Christian upbringing and eventually turned into spiritual seekers.

[Sebastian]

18 hours ago, ilumairen said:

and then explained to me that I was a mystic

 

This was a good thread a while back about esoteric Christianity. 

 

 

[ilumairen]

23 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

This is funny because I had a different experience. One of my catechism teachers (also in a small Midwestern town) told us that at a certain age, we should listen for the small voice. She was very precise about it, stating that often one would hear a ringing in the ears before. Others in the class had a similar experience. I never experienced any such thing. It would have been interesting if she had been your teacher. I cannot say whether the priests would have been on board or not. 
 

Thanks for sharing your experience, and providing a broadened reference point for me.

 

Quote

What I didn't learn until much later is that although externally I am very visual and thought oriented, internally I am very somatic. If she had told me to feel for a higher presence, things may have turned out differently. Other people are more visual--- they get images, etc. in their minds. 

 

 

I have a rather personal question which you should feel free to not answer if it is an overstep. 
 

Do you (or have you) experience(d) the “outside world” as internally somatic?

[ilumairen]

10 hours ago, Sebastian said:

 

So trading the beauty of your own soul for a sense of security and safety weaved by the intellect.

 

Yes, I suppose it could be expressed this way, although it felt neither secure nor safe, and served as catalyst for my departure from the church.
 

Quote

 

This is the crux (not the cross) of the matter at least for me. Universal Spiritual Reality.

 

It exists.  And Jesus has a faint spiritual pulse for anyone to access....

 

.... something that is constantly being drowned by the noise of the world.

 

It's there, and it's as real as your experience.

 

 

For me personally, this seems a matter of differing paradigms to express similar experience. The less I personally place it outside myself, the more stable, easily accessible, and less likely to cause what I would call “wind disturbances” the “unveiling” is. 

 

YMMV, and this is perfectly ok in “my world.”

 

And to be completely honest, I work with Taparitsa, Sherap Chamma, and Shendla Odkar - although my understanding of this may be a bit different than what you refer to. Or not, we have not interacted enough for me to even venture a guess, although if the OP you linked to is indication of your personal thoughts, beliefs, and experience perhaps there is some common ground.

 

Quote

 

Your inner experience is valuable, thanks for sharing.

 

And thank you for the polite and respectful conversation, and sharing your beliefs and way.

[ilumairen]

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

We never had a bible , nor where encouraged to read it . Even in 'religion' a subject we had every day . back then, I dont know about now. the Catholic School didnt teach from bibles, nor did we personally have one . It was ' the catholic catechism '  - basically a highly censored version of extracts .

 

If one attends all of the masses, they are structured such that the entire Catholic bible is read within a certain number of years, and then the process begins again.

 

Catechism has it’s own cycle and process - which (at least in my mother’s and my own youth - noting I’m in my late 40s now) was also highly structured.

 

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

I am sure YOU can guess why .     Reading the bible yourself will get you into ;trouble' without the 'leraned' there to explain it all to you

 

 

This I concur with, and have actually told a few Christians that they honestly didn’t want to have certain conversations with me if they wished to keep their faith in the manner they then had.

 

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

But apparently , reading the bible is also a great inspiration for some 

 

 

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, Sebastian said:

Haha good point Nugali. I'm usually not the brightest raccoon in the shack myself. I guess since I'm a raccoon,  I do things differently. I eat spiritual books as good nutrition. Merely looking at them is too boring for me. Maybe it means I just like food... 

 

 

[doc benway]

On 5/24/2020 at 6:19 PM, ilumairen said:

 

 

https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/tools/ask-a-scholar/gospel-of-thomas

 

 

He said "properly read," and I could argue most have not properly read it - if there even is a proper way to read it (aside from recognizing the ramblings and personal revelations of a dying and likely somewhat mad man - which has provided fertile soil for countless fictionalized tales of a battle between light and darkness).

 

As an aside while I ventured the halls of my own madness (what I call my period of [the unintentional] unraveling of constructs) there was a night of vivid dreams which led to a day or two where I had a sense of understanding armageddon in a very personal sense.. this eventually faded to a recognized cultural undertone in my understanding (should I wish to use this framework to share ideas or experiences with others - which I generally don't.)

 

In any case, I personally (closely) know two Christians who experienced what some here would label kundalini through prayer, and for a time I was quite interested in the tales of Teresa of Avila, although I came to suspect some of her later experiences were owing to a focus outside of herself, instead of inward, and were similar to a "wind disorder."

 

And this is enough rambling for now. Take care Nungali; I'm glad you are back. 

 

Anyone interested in awakening through Christianity would enjoy studying Father Anthony Demello's writings and talks.

He was an enlightened master, born a Hindu, later became a Jesuit, and a psychologist. 

 

It is not at all difficult to find evidence of spiritual depth in the Abrahamic teachings. 

That said, I think it is easier to see when looking from a place of already understanding rather than ignorance.

The esoteric understanding of each of the traditions is well hidden, not too dissimilar in that respect to Daoist scriptures.

And the number of those indoctrinated into these methods is very small.

Perhaps this is why it has been so effectively corrupted and manipulated?

 

 

On 5/25/2020 at 9:24 AM, SongShuhang said:

As for whenever Jesus even existed as a human being it is a question. As history tends to be rewritten and myths are created even right now about recent past with the internet, cameras and all kind of information stuff.

 

One can say the same about Laozi.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/laozi/

 

 

Quote

Can't even imagine people who believe in stories of 2000+ years old. You cant even trust things said 80 years ago.

 

You can't trust what you read or hear in any media in any given moment today, let alone 80 years ago...

 

In the end, the understanding is in us not in a written or spoken document. Any of the wisdom traditions can speak to the right person at the right time. Any can be misused. We need to take responsibility, find what speaks to us, and work with that. In my experience, the more deeply one's spiritual awakening the less likely they are to criticize other traditions. This is because once awakened, it is easy to see the truth in any of these writings.

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by steve

[Nungali]

14 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Anyone interested in awakening through Christianity would enjoy studying Father Anthony Demello's writings and talks.

He was an enlightened master, born a Hindu, later became a Jesuit, and a psychologist. 

 

It is not at all difficult to find evidence of spiritual depth in the Abrahamic teachings. 

That said, I think it is easier to see when looking from a place of already understanding rather than ignorance.

The esoteric understanding of each of the traditions is well hidden, not too dissimilar in that respect to Daoist scriptures.

And the number of those indoctrinated into these methods is very small.

Perhaps this is why it has been so effectively corrupted and manipulated?

 

 

 

One can say the same about Laozi.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/laozi/

 

 

 

You can't trust what you read or hear in any media in any given moment today, let alone 80 years ago...

 

In the end, the understanding is in us not in a written or spoken document. Any of the wisdom traditions can speak to the right person at the right time. Any can be misused. We need to take responsibility, find what speaks to us, and work with that. In my experience, the more deeply one's spiritual awakening the less likely they are to criticize other traditions. This is because once awakened, it is easy to see the truth in any of these writings.

 

 

As much as I agree with the last paragraph above there is also another side to it .   One can be awake enough to see truth .... the internal truth in any of the writings, but  the 'clothing'  of this truth and underlying themes can also be detected by the 'awakened'

 

For example,  Christianity has an element of guilt and redemption in it , and certainly it is a 'death cult' sacrificial religion.  On a very simplistic level we can detect this by asking what the purpose of life is meant to be  from a specific religious outlook  . I have heard  the 'qualified'  Christian  ( famous and or respected teachers or leaders )    declare " To serve God' ... even ' to fear God '  or  , for a lot, its to avoid hell or gain admission to 'heaven' .

 

 

Other religions have other definitions  , eg Zoroastrianism   says the purpose of life is to  have and lead a good and enjoyable life . So IMO one seems about guilt suffering and redemption and the other seems about acceptance and rejoicing . -  Internal  'truths'  that are VERY different .

[old3bob]

how many traditional Christians could handle the idea of actually drinking some of the blood and eating some of body (of Christ) as being  part of or derived from certain old (secret) shamanistic practices for astral connection?  I don't know much about it,  just came across that info years ago.

[old3bob]

going by that response apparently none...I believe the information source was from Mr. G (the fourth way) which I'd have to dig out the book for a quote.

Edited May 28, 2020 by old3bob

[flowing hands]

On 5/27/2020 at 10:53 PM, steve said:

It is not at all difficult to find evidence of spiritual depth in the Abrahamic teachings. 

That said, I think it is easier to see when looking from a place of already understanding rather than ignorance.

The esoteric understanding of each of the traditions is well hidden, not too dissimilar in that respect to Daoist scriptures.

And the number of those indoctrinated into these methods is very small.

Perhaps this is why it has been so effectively corrupted and manipulated?

 

!

Edited June 24, 2020 by flowing hands

[Musashi]

.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Musashi
spelling

[flowing hands]

On 5/28/2020 at 6:38 PM, Musashi said:

 

I made a post on your thread about climate change last week; about you claiming in the past that a nuclear attack would happen on a major European city. It never happened. I took that post away because I didn't want to dig up old stuff.

 

Yet here you are talking: "we don't even know whether Jesus existed or what is written about what he said, is true and Daoism".

 

I've been reading this forum for a long time; and you sir, have said in the past that you had actual conversations with Jezus himself.

Just like you said Lao Tzu told you about the nuclear terror attack. Care to explain?

?

Edited June 24, 2020 by flowing hands