John Chang - Jesus

[old3bob]

13 hours ago, old3bob said:

going by that response apparently none...I believe the information source was from Mr. G (the fourth way) which I'd have to dig out the book for a quote.

 

source from, "In Search of the Miraculous" by P.D. Ouspensky, page 97.  "....It was not bread and wine at all but real flesh and real blood. A magical ceremony similar to  blood-brotherhood for establishing a connection between astral bodies"

[doc benway]

13 hours ago, flowing hands said:

 

That said, it is more like common sense of living. But the vast majority is about oppression, particularly of women and socio-political manipulation and control. Esoterics is about the connection of the saviour Jesus and the single creator. This really is very different to Daoism. It's a bit like Jerry Johnson who was quoted to saying that he may be a Daoist but still has 'Jesus in his heart.' Bit of a stupid statement from such a person, considering that we don't even know whether Jesus existed or what is written about what he said, is true and Daoism is about having the Dao in one's heart and not the corrupted words of a human. (Dao Xin).

 

You can take things literally, that’s the fundamentalist approach, or go past the concrete details to the deeper meanings.

You can focus wherever you choose. The concrete details of the Daoist sages, the Buddhist scriptures, the Abrahamic stories, all of them are somewhat alien to me. The exaggerated stories and dimensions, the miracles and horrors, pick your poison. If any one of them is a door to self discovery for you, that is a beautiful thing and should be supported. All can and have been a doorway for people to growth and awakening. And some are associated with far more corruption and abuse than others throughout history. That’s part of what it has to teach us for sure.

 

They’re just stories, expressions of humanity. We can learn a lot from them, good and bad, as long as we can find one that speaks to us and that’s a very personal thing. They reflect the collective voice of populations throughout time and space. Wisdom lives in all of them, and corruption too - yin and yang. Rejecting doesn’t make them go away and doesn’t help us grow. They’re here now and for the foreseeable future. Understanding more deeply helps everyone.

 

I can easily see how someone could have an association of opening the heart, of unconditional love with Jesus (or just about anything or anyone else). My relationship to Jesus is a negative one. That’s my experience based on my unique karma. Why judge another’s personal experience and invalidate it? I will never know your inner world nor you mine.

[forestofclarity]

Totally agree. I had a very powerful mystical experience in the Christian tradition many years ago. I was unable to deepen or sustain it, and eventually it faded. Some years later, during Buddhist retreats, the same experiences manifested. I was very surprised. However, the names applied were different, and many of them did not have specific names. Now, as I delve in Taoism, I see explanations of various experiences that fit what I initially experienced perfectly, except they have different names and explanations. Same experience, different names and explanations. 

 

I think this is how traditions are. They begin with the experiential realization, but one cannot pass that. Rather, what one can pass are the names and explanations. Then we get attached to the names and explanations, completely forgetting the experience. Over time, the names and explanations may become very rigid, much like concepts and mental habits become rigid. Sounds a lot like the whole original mind (yuan shen), acquired mind (shi shen) in Taoism. 

 

There are certainly points of contact between mystics of all traditions.  

 

23 minutes ago, steve said:

 

You can take things literally, that’s the fundamentalist approach, or go past the concrete details to the deeper meanings.

You can focus wherever you choose. The concrete details of the Daoist sages, the Buddhist scriptures, the Abrahamic stories, all of them are somewhat alien to me. The exaggerated stories and dimensions, the miracles and horrors, pick your poison. If any one of them is a door to self discovery for you, that is a beautiful thing and should be supported. All can and have been a doorway for people to growth and awakening. And some are associated with far more corruption and abuse than others throughout history. That’s part of what it has to teach us for sure.

 

[senseless virtue]

On 2/18/2013 at 10:36 PM, flowing hands said:

Well, its damn difficult being who I am. Most people would ignore me, many think I'm crazy and a lot of TB's just humor me out of politeness! But I feel that if anyone was to read my posts they would see that I am revealing more and more greater understanding and insight. Of course I leave a lot out, for the secrets of the way must only be revealed to those of a truly pure heart.

 

I am still hanging in there and will in the coming years make great effort to stop the nuclear war starting in less than seven years. I do not expect people to treat me with respect or to believe what I say, that would be asking far too much.

 

Emphasis mine. More than seven years went by already and nothing of the kind happened. Where is your accountability for what was no less than apocalyptic scaremongering?

 

7 hours ago, flowing hands said:

Well let's wait and see. I wonder why you have been trolling me???

 

I don't know who you are and why you act the way you do, but you seem to be in the business of making outlandish and patently untrue claims while claiming divine revelation. How can you call the people who draw attention to your obvious mistakes as trolls in the goodness of your heart?

 

Frankly, you should be thankful for people who take their time to remind you of your own fallible nature instead of viewing them with unwarranted suspicion.

[old3bob]

I'd say that sometimes some of us have been granted visits to higher astral (or even causal ) realms but very few of us have major access or the present need to such access - being that most of us have not attained "moksha" or the great freedom and are dealing with  human karma''s and issues and thus are largely "earthbound" souls.   So imo  it is dubious for us to be speculating about whether or not the higher astral realms (and or causal)  exist or not  along with the Beings who have attained those realms.  Even various spiritual schools and their teachers who supposedly have major access to such realms and beings do not agree on the subject or on the Beings, thus to me they just see their particular take on the subject and often double down on it as being the only truth. (or the highest and more or less deny the all the rest)

Edited May 29, 2020 by old3bob

[Musashi]

.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Musashi

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, old3bob said:

I'd say that sometimes some of us have been granted visits to higher astral (or even causal ) realms but very few of us have major access or the present need to such access - being that most of us have not attained "moksha" or the great freedom and are dealing with  human karma''s and issues and thus are largely "earthbound" souls.   So imo  it is dubious for us to be speculating about whether or not the higher astral realms (and or causal)  exist or not  along with the Beings who have attained those realms.  Even various spiritual schools and their teachers who supposedly have major access to such realms and beings do not agree on the subject or on the Beings, thus to me they just see their particular take on the subject and often double down on it as being the only truth. (or the highest and more or less deny the all the rest)

 

Not only do I agree with the bolded, I think it is factual and observable. So let's ' take it as  a given'.  Now these realms and beings - whatever they are -   seem affirmed  by nearly all ( ie all cultures across time and locations ) so we have to acknowledge it as part of human experience / collective reality .  But, as you point out " they just see their particular take on the subject " .

 

So my question to you ( and anyone else) is ...  what is the original form or impetus that generates these various expressions ?

 

( Of course, during this little exercise , one cannot say their own or any one ' particular expression / take on the central reality -)

 

In case that isnt clear I will give an example ;  Harpur cites an experiment where a phenomena experienced by Pacific Islanders is related to various  peoples / cultures  - in its essence ;  people are in the forest , they get a strange tingling feeling, their body hair rises, they feel apprehensive, then a glowing sphere descends and hovers between the trees, They see a woman in the sphere and she communicates with them, it isnt a normal communication, they can not exactly pin it down or describe it . But afterwards they feel somehow changed and different .   The explanations given after the story is related range from " It is a visit from the fairies and that was queen of the faries  ..... it was the Virgin Mary  a typical UFO encounter of the 2nd kind ,   etc " The Pacific Islanders where sure it was  'a visit  from the ancestors ' .  

 

So, without taking a cultural perspective  ( eg , you cant just say 'they are all UFOs or all types of Virgin Mary visits ).....

 

What do you think it was .... or is  ... what do you think is going on BEHIND these 'cultural interpretations / clothing ?

Edited May 29, 2020 by Nungali

[old3bob]

that which is not a phenomenal  construct or thing of mind...that which is free,  that which is joyous truth within all other truths but can not be caught or held by a name for she is so very quick that she is standing still everywhere at once.

[dawei]

On 5/28/2020 at 6:47 PM, steve said:

Why judge another’s personal experience and invalidate it? I will never know your inner world nor you mine.

 

Yet you said here:

 

 

Why invalidate those experiences?  

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

 

Yet you said here:

 

 

Why invalidate those experiences?  

 

What experiences?

[dawei]

34 minutes ago, steve said:

 

What experiences?

 

You raised an objection without evidence.  Now you ask me for the evidence?

 

Let's not play with words and labels.  You choose certain labels you choose to use to mean something derogatory.  

 

So someone who you call a libertarian, but that person holds no label over themself,  is not someone that your heart sees as someone who could possible take an interest in daoism?

 

So you would say: if they are within a label you put on them but they don't hold themself, they are not within the realm of someone who could possible take an interest in daoism?

 

Edit: You just wrote this in another thread again ...  this is my point.   Your lack. 

 

The Great Way certainly is all-encompassing and yet I’m always a little surprised when intolerance, selfishness, and lack of empathy are  exhibited by spiritual practitioners. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by dawei

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

 

You raised an objection without evidence.  Now you ask me for the evidence?

I never invalidated the alt-right or GOP experience, not did I insult it. Although, to be clear, I strongly disagree with their policies. I was simply pointing to the group that got shit-canned for lording their political views here with the support of moderators.

 

1 hour ago, dawei said:

 

Let's not play with words and labels.  You choose certain labels you choose to use to mean something derogatory.  

I didn’t say anything derogatory, that was your perception. 

 

1 hour ago, dawei said:

 

So someone who you call a libertarian, but that person holds no label over themself,  is not someone that your heart sees as someone who could possible take an interest in daoism?

Your words, not mine.

 

1 hour ago, dawei said:

 

So you would say: if they are within a label you put on them but they don't hold themself, they are not within the realm of someone who could possible take an interest in daoism?

Wow, you’re out there with your assumptions and projections...

 

1 hour ago, dawei said:

 

Edit: You just wrote this in another thread again ...  this is my point.   Your lack. 

 

The Great Way certainly is all-encompassing and yet I’m always a little surprised when intolerance, selfishness, and lack of empathy are  exhibited by spiritual practitioners. 

My lack of empathy?

I don’t think that’s very accurate.

You’re saying I don’t empathize with imaginary people I label in a way they don’t label themselves?

That’s quite a story you’ve created.

[dawei]

11 minutes ago, steve said:

I never invalidated the alt-right or GOP experience, not did I insult it. Although, to be clear, I strongly disagree with their policies. I was simply pointing to the group that got shit-canned for lording their political views here with the support of moderators.

 

I didn’t say anything derogatory, that was your perception. 

 

Your words, not mine.

 

Wow, you’re out there with your assumptions and projections...

 

My lack of empathy?

I don’t think that’s very accurate.

You’re saying I don’t empathize with imaginary people I label in a way they don’t label themselves?

That’s quite a story you’ve created.

 

Ok, you can read your own words or not.  Thanks for replying. 

[Nungali]

9 minutes ago, steve said:

I never invalidated the alt-right or GOP experience, not did I insult it. Although, to be clear, I strongly disagree with their policies. I was simply pointing to the group that got shit-canned for lording their political views here with the support of moderators.

 

I didn’t say anything derogatory, that was your perception. 

 

Your words, not mine.

 

Wow, you’re out there with your assumptions and projections...

 

My lack of empathy?

I don’t think that’s very accurate.

You’re saying I don’t empathize with imaginary people I label in a way they don’t label themselves?

That’s quite a story you’ve created.

 

Regarding the bolded - our friend  Dawei seems to be doing a bit of that lately .  Which detracts from the conversation and subject at hand  .   When its bought up, he just leaves the conversation .

 

I'll put it down to 'lockdown stress' . 

 

(I dont really know , I dont have it at all, I am personally enjoying it ... but apparently its tuff on a lot of people that live differently to me  . )

[doc benway]

6 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Regarding the bolded - our friend  Dawei seems to be doing a bit of that lately .  Which detracts from the conversation and subject at hand  .   When its bought up, he just leaves the conversation .

 

I'll put it down to 'lockdown stress' . 

 

(I dont really know , I dont have it at all, I am personally enjoying it ... but apparently its tuff on a lot of people that live differently to me  . )

I thoroughly enjoyed my lockdown time. Alas, I’m back to work full time which for me is more stressful.

[dawei]

8 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I'll put it down to 'lockdown stress' . 

 

(I dont really know , I dont have it at all, I am personally enjoying it ... but apparently its tuff on a lot of people that live differently to me  . )

 

Don't you have something better to do than this ?  

 

You could simply ask...  

 

I work from home... last 20 years.  The lockdown is a nothing burger. 

 

 

[doc benway]

11 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Ok, you can read your own words or not.  Thanks for replying. 

It’s clear you took my post personally which means you must at least loosely identify with one of those categories or with the dear departed, or maybe just the history here. I clarified in my response to luke if you are interested. It’s not that “a libertarian” couldn’t consider themselves a  “Daoist” but I stand by my comments regarding personal cultivation and Trumpism. 

[dawei]

1 minute ago, steve said:

It’s clear you took my post personally which means you must at least loosely identify with one of those categories or with the dear departed, or maybe just the history here. I clarified in my response to luke if you are interested. It’s not that “a libertarian” couldn’t consider themselves a  “Daoist” but I stand by my comments regarding personal cultivation and Trumpism. 

 

wrong assumption... but go ahead and file that as, "I am correct" if it helps.  

 

I just don't get into labeling and judging people and groups.   Good luck with that. 

[Nungali]

14 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Don't you have something better to do than this ?  

 

 

Well,  yes, I DO have better things to do than try to be a bit understanding and  find  'another reason'  for your attitude and tactics of late - of which, I am not the only one here to notice and comment on .

 

14 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

You could simply ask...  

 

Okay then , I shall simply ask you ;   whats wrong with you lately ?

 

14 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

I work from home... last 20 years.  The lockdown is a nothing burger. 

 

 

 

Good !

[liminal_luke]

People tell me that Christianity can be an authentic spiritual path and I believe it.  Unfortunately, my personal experience of those who profess Christianity has been profoundly negative and shaming.  Maybe I´m just unlucky?  Do parents in predominantly Buddhist countries tell their children they´re bad people for not believing in the doctrine of, say, dependent co-arising?  I wouldn´t know.  My personal history thus far has been peopled with tyranical believe-or-else Christians, an attitude I haven´t found so much in yoga classes or studying Tai chi.  Jesus may be loving; the members of his church are decidedly less so. 

 

Many years ago I went on a pilgrimage walk to Santiago de Compostela in Spain.  It´s a nominally Catholic trek although people of all spiritual leanings undertake the journey.  You can´t help but see a lot of crosses along the way and I actually came to find the image meaningful, although I didn´t subscribe to Christianity then and don´t now.  To me, it seemed like the intersection of horizontal and vertical lines mirrored the alchemical intersection of fire and water I´d learned about in my Daoist adventures. (This potent mixing is repeated once again, to my mind anyway, in the triangles of the Star of David.  But that´s another story.)  I felt a sweetness that went beyond words in the paradoxical intersection of horizontal and vertical that is the cross.  

 

But that was then.  During the following twenty years I´ve reverted back to the ornery anti-Christain you see before you today.  Live and learn -- or not.     

Edited May 30, 2020 by liminal_luke

[dawei]

29 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Well,  yes, I DO have better things to do than try to be a bit understanding and  find  'another reason'  for your attitude and tactics of late - of which, I am not the only one here to notice and comment on .

 

 

Okay then , I shall simply ask you ;   whats wrong with you lately ?

 

 

Good !

 

Nothing burger.  Just getting a good laugh here.  

 

And can you define "of late" ?   and lately ?  So now, a single day is "of late" for you and everyone here?   

 

That is more laughs... don't you get it yet ? 

 

I can guarantee you have much better things to do than this

 

So, whats wrong or right with you lately ?  

 

BTW: My job as contractor to the federal government is non-stop... even any shutdown does not shut down our deliverables.   Amazing to think folks work for a living and then get some respite, yes? 

Edited May 30, 2020 by dawei

[doc benway]

44 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

wrong assumption... but go ahead and file that as, "I am correct" if it helps.  

 

I just don't get into labeling and judging people and groups.   Good luck with that. 

Thanks, I can use all the luck I can get.

Your reactivity sure made it feel personal.

If not, I stand corrected.

I feel no addiction to correctness.

Or that is at least the objective.

The I who is correct is ignorance from its foundation.

The pointing out of his flaws is appreciated.

[doc benway]

30 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

People tell me that Christianity can be an authentic spiritual path and I believe it.  Unfortunately, my personal experience of those who profess Christianity has been profoundly negative and shaming.  Maybe I´m just unlucky?  Do parents in predominantly Buddhist countries tell their children they´re bad people for not believing in the doctrine of, say, dependent co-arising?  I wouldn´t know.  My personal history thus far has been peopled with tyranical believe-or-else Christians, an attitude I haven´t found so much in yoga classes or studying Tai chi.  Jesus may be loving; the members of his church are decidedly less so. 

 

Many years ago I went on a pilgrimage walk to Santiago de Compostela in Spain.  It´s a nominally Catholic trek although people of all spiritual leanings undertake the journey.  You can´t help but see a lot of crosses along the way and I actually came to find the image meaningful, although I didn´t subscribe to Christianity then and don´t now.  To me, it seemed like the intersection of horizontal and vertical lines mirrored the alchemical intersection of fire and water I´d learned about in my Daoist adventures. (This potent mixing is repeated once again, to my mind anyway, in the triangles of the Star of David.  But that´s another story.)  I felt a sweetness that went beyond words in the paradoxical intersection of horizontal and vertical that is the cross.  

 

But that was then.  During the following twenty years I´ve reverted back to the ornery anti-Christain you see before you today.  Live and learn -- or not.     

 

Christianity, as a path, was redeemed for me by Anthony Demello. Its presence in the lives of many is a different beast altogether.

[dawei]

4 minutes ago, steve said:

Thanks, I can use all the luck I can get.

Your reactivity sure made it feel personal.

If not, I stand corrected.

I feel no addiction to correctness.

Or that is at least the objective.

The I who is correct is ignorance from its foundation.

The pointing out of his flaws is appreciated.

 

I'll agree to stand corrected as well.  There is nothing personal going on.  Not sure why that always seems to come up. 

[liminal_luke]

22 hours ago, steve said:

 

Christianity, as a path, was redeemed for me by Anthony Demello. Its presence in the lives of many is a different beast altogether.

 

I´m putting him on my reading list.  Where do you recommend I start my exploration?