John Chang - Jesus

[doc benway]

12 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

I'll agree to stand corrected as well.  There is nothing personal going on.  Not sure why that always seems to come up. 

 

In my experience, if something’s coming up often it may be worth looking at a bit more closely. One valuable thing about this place for me is it can show me things about myself I otherwise may not, or may not want to, see. I have no idea if it is applicable to you, just sharing my perspective.

 

[doc benway]

4 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´m putting him on my reading list.  Where do you recommend I start my exploration?

Awareness is a great place to start.

Another masterpiece is The Way to Love.

My favorite is a 12 cd set Wake Up to Life.

Are you still in Mexico?

[dawei]

3 minutes ago, steve said:

 

In my experience, if something’s coming up often it may be worth looking at a bit more closely. One valuable thing about this place for me is it can show me things about myself I otherwise may not, or may not want to, see. I have no idea if it is applicable to you, just sharing my perspective.

 

 

If this is your experience, then maybe you can defined "coming up often".  Thanks.  

[doc benway]

 

5 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

If this is your experience, then maybe you can defined "coming up often".  Thanks.  

 

No need, you already did that...

 

25 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Not sure why that always seems to come up. 

 

 

[moment]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Well,  yes, I DO have better things to do than try to be a bit understanding and  find  'another reason'  for your attitude and tactics of late - of which, I am not the only one here to notice and comment on .

 

 

Okay then , I shall simply ask you ;   whats wrong with you lately ?

 

 

Good !

 

"your attitude and tactics of late - of which, I am not the only one here to notice and comment on ."

You got that right!

 

[moment]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

People tell me that Christianity can be an authentic spiritual path and I believe it.  Unfortunately, my personal experience of those who profess Christianity has been profoundly negative and shaming.  Maybe I´m just unlucky?  Do parents in predominantly Buddhist countries tell their children they´re bad people for not believing in the doctrine of, say, dependent co-arising?  I wouldn´t know.  My personal history thus far has been peopled with tyranical believe-or-else Christians, an attitude I haven´t found so much in yoga classes or studying Tai chi.  Jesus may be loving; the members of his church are decidedly less so. 

 

Many years ago I went on a pilgrimage walk to Santiago de Compostela in Spain.  It´s a nominally Catholic trek although people of all spiritual leanings undertake the journey.  You can´t help but see a lot of crosses along the way and I actually came to find the image meaningful, although I didn´t subscribe to Christianity then and don´t now.  To me, it seemed like the intersection of horizontal and vertical lines mirrored the alchemical intersection of fire and water I´d learned about in my Daoist adventures. (This potent mixing is repeated once again, to my mind anyway, in the triangles of the Star of David.  But that´s another story.)  I felt a sweetness that went beyond words in the paradoxical intersection of horizontal and vertical that is the cross.  

 

But that was then.  During the following twenty years I´ve reverted back to the ornery anti-Christain you see before you today.  Live and learn -- or not.     

 

Christ's teachings were, hijacked and perverted, by a succession of opportunistic, power mad, bureacracies.

[dawei]

43 minutes ago, steve said:

 

 

No need, you already did that...

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply. 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´m putting him on my reading list.  Where do you recommend I start my exploration?

Fun fact - 

Before he became pope, Joel Ratzinger banned all Demello’s writings as heresy while serving as the Official Censor for the Catholic church. This position is a renaming and reworking of the Office of High Inquisitor. As a Jesuit, Demello’s publications were owned by the church and withdrawn from circulation for a period of time. After he died, I believe somehow his brother managed to get them republished.

 

This document is an interesting read -

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19980624_demello_en.html

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Hey Edward

 

I always loved this song... Decided I want to share it with you...

 

 

Cheers

Michael

[old3bob]

there is no alt-Dharma for universal Dharma's...

 specialists in lies almost always add half truths so as to burrow their way in to steal and corrupt...

greed, malice and fear are the primary tools of dictators (for instance trump)  manipulation and obviously primary to their character...

 

[senseless virtue]

On 5/28/2020 at 12:53 AM, steve said:

Anyone interested in awakening through Christianity would enjoy studying Father Anthony Demello's writings and talks.

He was an enlightened master, born a Hindu, later became a Jesuit, and a psychologist. 

 

I glanced through some online biographies of de Mello, but nowhere I saw that he was born a Hindu. His family was Roman Catholic entirely.

 

Are you in this context really meaning he was an enlightened master like you wrote and not just an awakened person? The term enlightened master holds much gravitas and I have only seen Buddhists attribute it to people who are perfectly realized Buddhas. The standards may vary though.

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, virtue said:

 

I glanced through some online biographies of de Mello, but nowhere I saw that he was born a Hindu. His family was Roman Catholic entirely.

 

Are you in this context really meaning he was an enlightened master like you wrote and not just an awakened person? The term enlightened master holds much gravitas and I have only seen Buddhists attribute it to people who are perfectly realized Buddhas. The standards may vary though.

 

Hinduism is much older historically and more varied than Buddhism (which borrowed a lot from it) and has brought up the subject of enlightened masters for thousands of years in many of its core teachings and schools.  For instance read the Chandogya Upanishad and others.  The same goes for many teachings in ancient China going back  thousands of  years or more which I'll leave for someone else to comment on if they wish?

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by old3bob

[flowing hands]

On 5/28/2020 at 6:38 PM, Musashi said:

 

I made a post on your thread about climate change last week; about you claiming in the past that a nuclear attack would happen on a major European city. It never happened. I took that post away because I didn't want to dig up old stuff.

 

Yet here you are talking: "we don't even know whether Jesus existed or what is written about what he said, is true and Daoism".

 

I've been reading this forum for a long time; and you sir, have said in the past that you had actual conversations with Jezus himself.

Just like you said Lao Tzu told you about the nuclear terror attack. Care to explain?

 

?

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by flowing hands

[forestofclarity]

To nitpick a little, fully realized Buddhahood would be samyaksambodhi, whereas what (I've been taught anyway) is that the beginning stages of enlightenment start with breaking the first three fetters (out of 10) in Theravada or having a stable realization of emptiness which is the first Bhumi (our of 10) in Mahayana. 

 

6 hours ago, virtue said:

Are you in this context really meaning he was an enlightened master like you wrote and not just an awakened person? The term enlightened master holds much gravitas and I have only seen Buddhists attribute it to people who are perfectly realized Buddhas. The standards may vary though.

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by forestofemptiness

[doc benway]

6 hours ago, virtue said:

 

I glanced through some online biographies of de Mello, but nowhere I saw that he was born a Hindu. His family was Roman Catholic entirely.

 

Are you in this context really meaning he was an enlightened master like you wrote and not just an awakened person? The term enlightened master holds much gravitas and I have only seen Buddhists attribute it to people who are perfectly realized Buddhas. The standards may vary though.

 

I seem to remember in one of his talks a discussion of his choice to follow Christ as a child, I may have misinterpreted. I never researched his past.

 

Regarding enlightenment vs awakening, I am not the one to pronounce judgment on such matters. Such terms are too personal and too charged. I’ll revise that to simply say he’s got a lot to teach for those with a karmic connection and leave it at that. 

[Zork]

5 hours ago, flowing hands said:

 

We have eight months left, I try to put the whole idea out of my mind. I was given a vision of the world to come 36 years ago and told more some time later. Given that we have madmen in charge of superpower countries it's really not that hard to imagine. 

Yes I have spoken to Jesus on two occasions and started a thread about what he said to me and the usual Bums idiots and na sayers joined the thread. But for those who are not mediums there is no reason or evidence to suggest that Jesus was ever alive.

If I were an ordinary person and some traditional shaman said about an  apocalyptic event was to befall the earth and it didn't seem to happen when I thought it was, I would be really glad and happy. That's a person who has a good heart. They would be saying thank the heavens he got it wrong.

A person with a bad heart, would tear into that shaman saying all sorts of things like you and virtue have.   

 

So we still have roughly eight months to go. Personally, I am counting on that I am completely and utterly wrong.

 

Many traditional peoples have the same prophecy. Back in the 90's, I was introduced to Black Elk who was given a similar vision. Are you going to call him a fraud also?

 

Just for the record, I have never taken money from anyone in return for help I have given. I have though, sent money to complete strangers who have contacted me for help and when they have been destitute also.

 

 

This post delivers!!!!

It is ironic that Christian sects can't get away for failing predictions on the rapture/the Apocalypse/the end of the world and all other faiths/sects can get away with failed disaster predictions using the same excuses.

Do you know what they say? "God forgave us for the time being", "God gave us more time to repent", "thank God we were wrong because we interpreted this and that wrong" yadah yadah.

Yep you are probably Christian and don't know it.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Zork

[ilumairen]

 

Quote

So we still have roughly eight months to go. Personally, I am counting on that I am completely and utterly wrong.

 

 

The quote shared was from February of 2013, and you said “less than seven years.” If I were hoping to be completely and utterly wrong I may just take the passing of the time frame (as given at the time of sharing) as wrong, instead of adding more time for Armageddon to play out. This extra 8 months, to me, seems to indicate a wish to still somehow be right.

 

Quote

Many traditional peoples have the same prophecy. Back in the 90's, I was introduced to Black Elk who was given a similar vision. Are you going to call him a fraud also?

 

Just for the record, I have never taken money from anyone in return for help I have given. I have though, sent money to complete strangers who have contacted me for help and when they have been destitute also.

 

[senseless virtue]

5 hours ago, flowing hands said:

the usual Bums idiots and na sayers

 

I'm an idiot! Na-na-na-na-na-na!

 

5 hours ago, flowing hands said:

If I were an ordinary person

 

Maybe you have some sanctified (holy) office or position, but declaring yourself as a "holy person" is just pompous self-aggrandizement and reads pretty much as if you were denying your own humanity.

 

You can present yourself as special person as you ever want and put yourself on a pedestal, but I am not any holier or unholier than anyone else. That especially includes you.

 

5 hours ago, flowing hands said:

A person with a bad heart, would tear into that shaman saying all sorts of things like you and virtue have.

 

Are you claiming that you have an exceptional insight into human heart and into the minds of others that you can accurately judge my (or Musashi's) entire character based on one message I kindly wrote to address your mistake?

 

I summon a renown witness to testify for my innocence. From The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn:

 

Quote

“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

Edited May 31, 2020 by virtue
wrong person in quote

[flowing hands]

On 5/31/2020 at 4:13 PM, virtue said:

 

I'm an idiot! Na-na-na-na-na-na!

 

 

Maybe you have some sanctified (holy) office or position, but declaring yourself as a "holy person" is just pompous self-aggrandizement and reads pretty much as if you were denying your own humanity.

 

You can present yourself as special person as you ever want and put yourself on a pedestal, but I am not any holier or unholier than anyone else. That especially includes you.

 

 

Are you claiming that you have an exceptional insight into human heart and into the minds of others that you can accurately judge my (or Musashi's) entire character based on one message I kindly wrote to address your mistake?

 

I summon a renown witness to testify for my innocence. From The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn:

 

 

 

!

Edited June 24, 2020 by flowing hands

[Zork]

2 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

 

Why don't you try using that little walnut inside your head?

 

What do I lose? Nothing! I'm not bothered whether you believe in me or not; I am unconcerned.

Nobody has paid me for my opinion, like you, nobody believes what I have said and if nothing happens isn't that the best result ever? 

The other way round means end of your life and billions of others. Which would you prefer?

Or are you just concerned with your self righteous aggravation of anything you cannot understand or be?

I name you the TDB's official Jester!

When do you start your own standup gig?

[ilumairen]

35 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

 

Why don't you try using that little walnut inside your head?

 

What do I lose? Nothing! I'm not bothered whether you believe in me or not; I am unconcerned.

 

In everyday life I generally find people who are not bothered and unconcerned have little reason to insult the intelligence of the person they are interacting with - except maybe in a jovial manner which this doesn’t appear to be.

 

Quote

Nobody has paid me for my opinion, like you, nobody believes what I have said and if nothing happens isn't that the best result ever? 
 

 

The time frame you set forth has elapsed, and your prediction did not come to pass.

 

Quote

The other way round means end of your life and billions of others. Which would you prefer?

 

Obfuscation. 

 

Quote

Or are you just concerned with your self righteous aggravation of anything you cannot understand or be?

:leans in and whispers:

 

He isn’t the individual looking self righteous in this exchange. I mean, did you actually consider what you just typed here before you hit send? Claims one has become what another could not (hope to) understand or be is rather the definition of self righteous (aggrandizement more than aggravation, although I suppose an aggrandizing party may find being called out on error aggravating).

 

And while I’m taking the time to type here, let me just add negating another’s shared experience of connection with Christ, after posting of your own conversations with the same, comes across as a bit hypocritical to me.

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by ilumairen
clarification of the previously used word “it”

[senseless virtue]

 

Quote

What do I lose?

 

Everything. The entire path to wisdom and Dao is that of loss.

 

Self-identity and various concerns it may treasure are all very amusing and playful things, like butterflies fluttering over a sunny meadow. Wonderful, fragile, and utterly transient.

 

Quote

Nobody has paid me for my opinion, like you, nobody believes what I have said and if nothing happens isn't that the best result ever? 

 

Again, the issue is why do you keep spouting unsubstantiated alarmist nonsense. It provably serves your own self-image only.

 

There are plenty of people already fearing all sorts of conspiracies and predestined apocalyptic events to unfold. How good and helpful has that ever been?

 

Changing people's hearts and the world for better happens through other means than apocalyptic fear mongering, which is a certain fact.

 

Quote

The other way round means end of your life and billions of others. Which would you prefer?

 

I get it. You are the Daoist Kyle Reese whose superior consciousness was astral projected 36 years ago into his own past self's body-mind complex in order to task him with saving humanity: Preventing Skynet from launching a nuclear strike in a major European city and from starting the third World War which wipes out nearly all humans and paves the way to the era dominated by machines. Little did you know that Skynet sent an android model T-800 with artificial human skin back in time to thwart Kyle Reese from warning the world about the apocalyptic future ruled by machines and keep everyone unprepared. Moreover, somewhere across the cyberspace vigilantly sits a nude bodybuilder framed guy with sunglasses on constantly and he wields the keyboard like a programmed war machine, spilling an endless stream of lethally accurate remarks and witty comebacks ("I'll be back!") to take down the Daoist Kyle Reese. What human could endure such a hopeless non-stop ordeal against a tireless and heartless machine?

 

Spoiler

TARGET: CREDIBILITY TERMINATED.

 

Quote

Or are you just concerned with your self righteous aggravation of anything you cannot understand or be?

 

I may not know anything special, but I certainly understand what I experience and see now. This is enough.

 

Your situation might be the other way around.

Edited December 4, 2023 by senseless virtue
smarter responses

[old3bob]

understand a spiritual black hole, it sucks without reason or conscience, caring nothing about what any being thinks or feels, for it must feed... intellect can not look it in the eye and prevail only will held by the wisdom of truth can.

[ilumairen]

 

5 minutes ago, virtue said:

I get it. You are the Daoist Kyle Reese whose superior consciousness was astral projected 36 years ago into his own past self's body-mind complex in order to task him with saving humanity: Preventing Skynet from launching a nuclear strike in a major European city and from starting the third World War which wipes out nearly all humans and paves the way to the era dominated by machines. Little did you know that Skynet sent an android model T-800 with artificial human skin back in time to thwart Kyle Reese from warning the world about the apocalyptic future ruled by machines and keep everyone unprepared. Moreover, somewhere across the cyberspace vigilantly sits a nude bodybuilder framed guy with sunglasses on constantly and he wields the keyboard like a programmed war machine, spilling an endless stream of lethally accurate remarks and witty comebacks ("I'll be back!") to take down the Daoist Kyle Reese. What human could endure such a hopeless non-stop ordeal against a tireless and heartless machine?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

TARGET: CREDIBILITY TERMINATED.

 

I once read, a Buddhist must traverse their own madness before buddhahood may be realized. This comes to mind owing largely to personal experience of recognizing and coming to understand where ideas and held beliefs originated - often in the most mundane of ways. This sometimes can play out in fantastical visions which may appear special or divine, when in actuality conditions simply arose such that a seed from the karmic storehouse sprouted and bore fruit. Attachment to this fruit then creates further karmic seeds.. which play out in ways much like we see in this thread.

 

It is entirely possible the vision was pop-culturally induced, and attachment to this vision is the madness which must be traversed.

 

5 minutes ago, virtue said:

I may not know anything special, but I certainly understand what I experience and see now. This is enough.

 

Your situation might be the other way around.

 

[doc benway]

20 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

I once read, a Buddhist must traverse their own madness before buddhahood may be realized.

 

Perhaps not germane to this discussion but I’m reminded of my teacher talking about the dedicated practitioner who had cleared nearly all karmic baggage (except for some old unresolved mommy issues). Standing at the threshold of liberation, the door to enlightenment opens and who is standing there but mommy, wagging her finger and saying, “You? A Buddha? Not yet little one...”

... or something along those lines.

 

It’s easy to feel compassion for “all sentient beings.” A little more challenging when narrowing that down to those closest to us in life.