Combining Practices (Tai Chi-Zhang Zhuang-Fragrant Qigong): Good or bad idea?

[matrod]

Dear friends,

 

I've been lurking around for some time here and wondered if you can help me with this question: I learned the basic Tai Chi Yang Style 24 form in 2017 with a local Chinese teacher. Studied for a year more or less and I've been practicing regularly for 30-40 minutes each day now. I've been curious of Zhang Zhuang and learned the form as well, and started to practice 2-3 weeks ago for 5 minutes so far. I usually do ZZ after doing Tai Chi and haven't noticed any ill effects. Recently I read about Fragrant Qigong and it resonated a lot, specially as a way to treat certain health ailments I'm having (sleep quality, digestive issues and muscular tension) that haven't improved noticeably with my Tai Chi practice.

 

So I was wondering if it is advisable to combine the three of them (Tai Chi, ZZ and FQ) or not. I'm aware that you should not mix powerful QG practices because they can cause more problems than good. But having into account that ZZ is viewed as a "neutral" practice in terms of Qi generation and movement and Tai Chi is more oriented towards achieving flexibility, centering and balance, could FQ complement my routine? The plan is to practice for one hour in total every day, or a bit more if time allows.

 

Your comments and thoughts are most welcome. Thanks a lot.

 

 

[Iskote]

Hello matrod. The practice of zhan zhuang is actually traditionally taught by some tai chi teachers, and the opening stance of tai chi (in some styles of tai chi anyway) is the 'wuji' stance, which is a core stance of zhan zhuang practice. You should be perfectly fine mixing those two practices. As for fragrant qigong, I don't know what the teachers of that system have said in regards to mixing that practice with tai chi and zhan zhuang, so I can't comment from that perspective; but, from a practical point of view, I would be inclined to think that practicing level 1 of fragrant qigong along with tai chi and zhan zhuang will likely be fine, but the original teacher of fragrant qigong may have stated differently. I don't know. I think the level 1 of fragrant qigong is focused on health improvement, so I wouldn't think there should be any much of a conflict, and may actually be quite complementary practices.  If you feel any ill effects when mixing, then you might want to re-evaluate mixing what you are practicing, or maybe just practice those different practices at different times of the day.  I am doubtful you should run into any issues with mixing those practices though.  

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Iskote

[Zork]

7 hours ago, matrod said:

Dear friends,

 

I've been lurking around for some time here and wondered if you can help me with this question: I learned the basic Tai Chi Yang Style 24 form in 2017 with a local Chinese teacher. Studied for a year more or less and I've been practicing regularly for 30-40 minutes each day now. I've been curious of Zhang Zhuang and learned the form as well, and started to practice 2-3 weeks ago for 5 minutes so far. I usually do ZZ after doing Tai Chi and haven't noticed any ill effects. Recently I read about Fragrant Qigong and it resonated a lot, specially as a way to treat certain health ailments I'm having (sleep quality, digestive issues and muscular tension) that haven't improved noticeably with my Tai Chi practice.

 

So I was wondering if it is advisable to combine the three of them (Tai Chi, ZZ and FQ) or not. I'm aware that you should not mix powerful QG practices because they can cause more problems than good. But having into account that ZZ is viewed as a "neutral" practice in terms of Qi generation and movement and Tai Chi is more oriented towards achieving flexibility, centering and balance, could FQ complement my routine? The plan is to practice for one hour in total every day, or a bit more if time allows.

 

Your comments and thoughts are most welcome. Thanks a lot.

 

 

It is ok. I have combined Shibashi, 8 piece brocades, Fragrant and ZZ (plus even isometrics etc) without any problems.

You must avoid heavy visualizations in ZZ though.

[matrod]

Thanks a lot for your insighful answers. Started yesterday and I'm just trying to enjoy the practices. Will report back if anything arises.

[Bhathen]

The PDF in this link gives the answer to Fragrant Qigong working with other styles on Page 20.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.qi.org/fragrant/frag1.PDF&ved=2ahUKEwin3dyurOvpAhUPna0KHUJ6AY4QFjAEegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3BlJQxYAHB1fRgsl74epf9

Edited June 15, 2020 by Bhathen

[matrod]

Thanks a lot! I must confess I found this file before but did not read until the end, focusing only in the exercises and explanations. There’s a lot of good information about the do’s and dot ‘say there. I’ve already started and I have felt some mild effects from the practice so far. There’s even a thread on Fragrant Qigong here: 

One thing I’ve modified is not to do the practices together, this is, I first do FQ and a while after (1-2 hours) I do Tai Chi and ZZ. I’m practicing twice per day (FQ) as recommended. Will report back.

[Master Logray]

Usually it is not advisable to mix movement styles with movements styles, standing with standing, sitting with sitting. 

[Zork]

7 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Usually it is not advisable to mix movement styles with movements styles, standing with standing, sitting with sitting. 

Not true for fragrant.

Fragrant can't be combined with standing which has visualisation or sitting which has deep concentration(trance states) or pranayama exercises. You can do moving qigong which doesn't involve unnatural breathing or visualisation.

[Vajra Fist]

1 minute ago, Zork said:

Not true for fragrant.

Fragrant can't be combined with standing which has visualisation or sitting which has deep concentration(trance states) or pranayama exercises. You can do moving qigong which doesn't involve unnatural breathing or visualisation.

 

Always wondered how it can claim to be a Buddhist qigong when it tells you that you can't meditate

[senseless virtue]

14 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Always wondered how it can claim to be a Buddhist qigong when it tells you that you can't meditate

 

Didn't Gautama Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path outline much more than meditation? Besides, the essence of Mahayana Buddhism is maturing in wisdom and awareness, not formal meditation. These can be and should be integrated into daily living much more deeply than formal concentrative meditation allows anyway.

 

There are plenty of Buddhist methods still compatible with Fragrant Qigong: mantras, atiyoga, reading sutras, and training perfect conduct are great examples.

[Vajra Fist]

50 minutes ago, virtue said:

 

Didn't Gautama Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path outline much more than meditation? Besides, the essence of Mahayana Buddhism is maturing in wisdom and awareness, not formal meditation. These can be and should be integrated into daily living much more deeply than formal concentrative meditation allows anyway.

 

There are plenty of Buddhist methods still compatible with Fragrant Qigong: mantras, atiyoga, reading sutras, and training perfect conduct are great examples.

 

The method was apparently taught by a buddhist monk. Its true that for the laymen there are many auxiliary practices, but I've never heard of a buddhist monk advise against meditation - the method of enlightenment of the historical Buddha.

[Vajra Fist]

Fragrant is the very opposite though in that it tells you to be distracted while practicing, you are even advised to watch TV while practicing so your mind is elsewhere. It seems like the very opposite effect you're supposed to get from the Buddha's method. Practicing qigong while deliberately placing the mind elsewhere also sounds suspiciously like an invitation to possession. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Vajra Fist

[Zork]

1 hour ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Always wondered how it can claim to be a Buddhist qigong when it tells you that you can't meditate

Who says that you can't meditate?

 

15 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Fragrant is the very opposite though in that it tells you to be distracted while practicing, you are even advised to watch TV while practicing so your mind is elsewhere. It seems like the very opposite effect you're supposed to get from the Buddha's method. Practicing qigong while deliberately placing the mind elsewhere also sounds suspiciously like an invitation to possession. 

It is explained in the pdf that putting attention on the movements affects the way chi moves. The same goes for visualisations of energy in ZZ.

[SirPalomides]

41 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Fragrant is the very opposite though in that it tells you to be distracted while practicing, you are even advised to watch TV while practicing so your mind is elsewhere. It seems like the very opposite effect you're supposed to get from the Buddha's method. Practicing qigong while deliberately placing the mind elsewhere also sounds suspiciously like an invitation to possession. 

Depends on what you’re watching. Star Trek is safe; Dora the Explora will definitely get you possessed.

[Vajra Fist]

3 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

Depends on what you’re watching. Star Trek is safe; Dora the Explora will definitely get you possessed.

 

Not even the kid watches Dora, its the work of the devil. But it raises another point, does what you're watching influence what you get from the practice? If you're watching Trump on the news and you get angry, or watching Stranger Things and the demi-gorgon makes you jump, does that affect what the qi is doing in your body? All of Chunyi Lin's stuff of late is over the relationship between emotions and qi. It would strike me that your mood while practicing has a significant effect.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Vajra Fist

[Vajra Fist]

See a few laughing comments, maybe "possession" has western, exorcist connotations. I don't mean it in such an obvious way.

 

Maybe something like "attracting astral entities" is a better way of putting it. It's always been my feeling that when your mind isn't present on what you're doing in qigong, you've basically left an open door for other entities to siphon off the energy you've accumulated, or else attach to your body permanently. I've read about this happening mostly in spontaneous qigong. Some masters like Jenny Lamb specialise in removing these entities from qigong practitioners. 

 

Could be way off the mark here. Feel free to put me right. I'm not anti-fragrant qigong, I have heard numerous stories of healing from it and I like how convenient it is. Its just it gives me the heebie jeebies over this, and also the strangeness of the movements themselves. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Vajra Fist

[matrod]

Just to chime in guys, I'm no expert at all, nonetheless, what I understood reading FQ materials,  is that concentrating on the Qi movement while doing FQ consumes a lot of energy, according to Tian Ruisheng, which defeats the purpose of the practice. I suppose Qi goes where is needed and the main idea is to avoid any interruption to the process. FWIW, I usually listen to relaxing music while doing Tai Chi or ZZ or FQ. I haven't watched news for a long, long time now, so no chances of any bad influence from them.

 

And just to add to the discussion, I studied with Sifu Jenny Lamb for 4 years and learned her Yigong for Self Healing system. I practiced it for a while and did not notice any results, so I found another teacher (Chinese) who taught me Tai Chi, Yang Style, which I'm practicing now, along with ZZ and FQ. Tai Chi has slowly made me more balanced, less stressed out and my back problems have improved a lot. ZZ has helped for my patience and joint health as well. From FQ I can't say anything yet (I started very recently), but somehow I feel it is working.

 

Sifu Jenny taught us to protect ourselves from entities and such, having a clear intention of doing good and healing ourselves. This has not to be the focus of your practice. If you have it clear in your mind and heart, you're protected. A fellow student, TCM practitioner, stopped practicing her Self Adjusting Qigong for the very reason mentioned above (astral entity exposure). He switched to a different practice afterwards. Tian Ruisheng mentions that if you practice with ill intentions, you will be harmed. I think I read something similar from Earl Grey in this forum a while ago, and this applies for any Qigong or energy cultivation system.

 

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I think everybody "knows" somehow when something is wrong and we should pay attention to this warning signals with everything we do... Even Tian Ruisheng says: "Practice this for at least 6 months. If it is not working, go find something else". My motto now is: "Not too alert but not too relaxed".

 

And yes, keep away from Dora at all costs...

 

Thanks again everybody for contributing to the discussion!