Refining ZZ alignments

[pitisukha]

Hello everyone!

 

I'll make the story short and say that right now I can't have a good Zhan Zhuang teacher.

I'd like to know what are the best detailed sources for good body alignments (video or books)?

 

Right now I'm reading through Mark Choen's inside Zhan zhuang, is there anything better than this?

 

Thanks

[Zork]

It all depends on the school. If you get this book then you will have to refer to that teacher to help you progress. Same goes for "the Way of Energy". Every school has different variations for ZZ depending on it's goals and methods.

 

[Master Logray]

ZZ is simple enough to learn from videos etc.

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

ZZ is simple enough to learn from videos etc.

 

I agree it's possible to learn from videos to some extent.

 

But in my experience, it's anything but simple.

 

If it comes across simple - then you're not being taught the internal mechanics.

[freeform]

There is also the element of - are you actually ready to start ZZ practice?

 

Have you built the foundation in a way that makes ZZ a productive practice rather than a waste of time? Or worse - is it something that's creating the opposite result you're looking for?

 

The principle of 'foundation' is so key in these arts - and I think this is often the missing piece for most people.

 

Just like if you're building a house - but neglect putting down a solid foundation - the boring, unsexy bit that no one ever sees - and then you put the fanciest, nicest house on top - it will simply crumble and deteriorate very quickly.

[Master Logray]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

But in my experience, it's anything but simple.

 

If it comes across simple - then you're not being taught the internal mechanics.

 

What you say is true.  Unfortunately no one really keeps on practising ZZ all the way to the highest level.  Most likely they will progress to the many other Chikung exercises.   And no teacher can survive by teaching ZZ alone.     So the result is, except one or 2 schools which are ZZ specialist, ZZ is treated as basic exercise only. 

[Sleepy Panda]

On 6/3/2020 at 4:06 PM, freeform said:

There is also the element of - are you actually ready to start ZZ practice?

 

Have you built the foundation in a way that makes ZZ a productive practice rather than a waste of time? Or worse - is it something that's creating the opposite result you're looking for?

 

The principle of 'foundation' is so key in these arts - and I think this is often the missing piece for most people.

 

Just like if you're building a house - but neglect putting down a solid foundation - the boring, unsexy bit that no one ever sees - and then you put the fanciest, nicest house on top - it will simply crumble and deteriorate very quickly.

 

What could be the foundation for Zhan Zhuang? I thought Zhan Zhuang was the foundation of all internal martials arts. 

[freeform]

15 hours ago, Sleepy Panda said:

 

What could be the foundation for Zhan Zhuang? I thought Zhan Zhuang was the foundation of all internal martials arts. 

 

Yeah you're right - ZZ is the foundation to developing internal force for internal styles.

 

But there might be an issue with terminology maybe...

 

Every system will have a 'wuji' posture - basically the fundamental standing posture. Everything is built off of that posture... For different systems wuji looks different - usually, the hands are low - either just by your sides - or palms facing down... The internal mechanics will be quite different too depending on the system.

 

This posture is used to 'rebuild' the structure of the body prior to what I call Zhan Zhuang - which involves creating some affect on the body (over and above 'wuji') - so it will be holding the hands in certain positions - holding the beachball at the chest posture being the most commonly known.

 

Rebuilding the structure of the body, however, takes time - years even. Doing the other standing postures before the body is rebuilt (unless in short bursts - or just to learn etc) will cause issues.

[dwai]

I’d recommend opening your body up with some good taijiquan (or another IMA) and then taking up ZZ.
 

If you do ZZ too soon, you might end up creating blockages by not knowing how to release muscles and tensions in your body (and mind).

 

[Cleansox]

Combining static and dynamic methods is usually a good idea. 

Finding a good teacher (TDB automatic advice no 1) so you learn to release while standing is also useful. Personally, I spent years in the 90-ties standing like a stiff dork because my first teachers didn't know better.

Ahh, the nineties.... 😁 

[Sleepy Panda]

Excellent discussion on this thread. I learnt a lot today.

[Sleepy Panda]

11 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Yeah you're right - ZZ is the foundation to developing internal force for internal styles.

 

But there might be an issue with terminology maybe...

 

Every system will have a 'wuji' posture - basically the fundamental standing posture. Everything is built off of that posture... For different systems wuji looks different - usually, the hands are low - either just by your sides - or palms facing down... The internal mechanics will be quite different too depending on the system.

 

This posture is used to 'rebuild' the structure of the body prior to what I call Zhan Zhuang - which involves creating some affect on the body (over and above 'wuji') - so it will be holding the hands in certain positions - holding the beachball at the chest posture being the most commonly known.

 

Rebuilding the structure of the body, however, takes time - years even. Doing the other standing postures before the body is rebuilt (unless in short bursts - or just to learn etc) will cause issues.

I didn't realize that the palm facing downward pose was Wuji and Zhan Zhuang was entirely different i.e. holding or pushing ball at the different heights. Atleast Lam Kham Chuen's The Way Of Energy doesn't make that distinction. 

[freeform]

11 hours ago, Sleepy Panda said:

Atleast Lam Kham Chuen's The Way Of Energy doesn't make that distinction.

Yeah that’s what I meant by differences in terminology.

 

Every classical internal style will have their version of wuji - and everything else is built on top of that foundation.

 

ZZ isn’t really a ‘system’ as such - although Lam Kam has attempted to make it into one.
 

I believe he has a wuji posture (arms by your side). But what he doesn’t make clear (I believe) is how to use this posture to create the foundation (basically missing all the internal principles). The majority of one’s training should be based around wuji for at least the first 3 to 5 years.

[Cleansox]

12 hours ago, Sleepy Panda said:

I didn't realize that the palm facing downward pose was Wuji. 

Terminology. 

For me, it isn't. 

Mostly because my teacher said "this is the natural standing position" which in my method is the one with the hands by the side, while "this is our basic stance, you are going to work with it for a long time" is a palms down stance. 

 

I guess someone in my tradition decided this basics would be relevant for us. While in taiji, we normally only/mostly used the three circle/hugging the tree stance and lowered the hands in the end of the session. 

 

More or less the opposite.