Chasing reflectivity: seek to notice the 'mirror' quality of each moment

[ilumairen]

11 minutes ago, blackfence said:

You asked what I thought, then get irritated when I tell you what I think... 

 

You used too many words, and although you started out strong, you missed the target imo. 

 

11 minutes ago, blackfence said:

When I'm pointing it out with regards to silence or stillness is not rudimentary, because many "advanced seekers" get stuck in believing that long spells of a silent or still mind are the final destination. That's it and no more. That's incorrect.

I did say rudimentary to me, the person who believed they were engaged in conversation with you, and yet it appears you are speaking more to an audience than with me. Hence my comment regarding holding court, which you’ve actually done more to confirm than refute now. This is fine, but I would rather have this understanding from the outset, and would limit my sharing accordingly.

 

BTW Thank you for removing the conjecture regarding what you believed I was looking for from you, and some of the emotion you attributed to me.
 

P.S. And in regard to the “meat”  of what I have quoted here, I agree with you, and the first post in a thread titled “interesting” in my ppd speaks to this.

 

Now silence really does beckon, and I have had enough words for now.

 

Take care.

 

[blackfence]

Just now, dwai said:

Of course Jnana is complete. It always is. Before the seeker begun seeking it was so, after the seeker realizes it is so. That said, experience shows that there indeed is a process of maturation, not of the jnana but within the individual. 

 

Now,  if you say, "there is no individual...that is an appearance only", I'll say "if you are smacked on the head, you WILL hurt". So long as there is a body and mind, they are subject to the influence of the arrows (flying around in samsara). Body will age, disease will come.  Prarabha will playout. That is why tattvajnana and jivanamukti are considered distinct phases. 

Right, it's as I thought. You've accepted jnana in name only. "Yes, jnana, but..."

 

No. Prarabdha, body, mind, etc. -- and yes, "being smacked on the head and hurting" -- these are absolutely all merely appearances. One who believes that they are more than that has not actually understood the true nature of jnana.

 

What logic is there in the "maturation" of a mirage?

 

And certainly the idea that "one will hurt when smacked" as proof that the individual is not an appearance is completely rooted in the egoic illusion.

 

There is no "maturation of the individual" as some official "post jnana phase" -- accepting that is accepting the reality of ajnana... its continuation and thus gradual reduction.

 

Tattvajnana and jivanmukti are not truly distinct phases. They are "distinct" only from the standpoint of ajnana.

 

"As the kindled fire reduces firewood to ashes, Arjuna, so the fire of knowledge reduces all actions to ashes." (Bhagavad Gita 4:37)

 

What there may be said to be imperfect or incomplete knowledge; unsteady knowledge. In that identification remains. That is not true jnana. It is only a phase of seeking.

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, blackfence said:

Right, it's as I thought. You've accepted jnana in name only. "Yes, jnana, but..."

 

No. Prarabdha, body, mind, etc. -- and yes, "being smacked on the head and hurting" -- these are absolutely all merely appearances. One who believes that they are more than that has not actually understood the true nature of jnana.

 

What logic is there in the "maturation" of a mirage?

 

And certainly the idea that "one will hurt when smacked" as proof that the individual is not an appearance is completely rooted in the egoic illusion.

 

There is no "maturation of the individual" as some official "post jnana phase" -- accepting that is accepting the reality of ajnana... its continuation and thus gradual reduction.

 

Tattvajnana and jivanmukti are not truly distinct phases. They are "distinct" only from the standpoint of ajnana.

 

"As the kindled fire reduces firewood to ashes, Arjuna, so the fire of knowledge reduces all actions to ashes." (Bhagavad Gita 4:37)

 

What there may be said to be imperfect or incomplete knowledge; unsteady knowledge. In that identification remains. That is not true jnana. It is only a phase of seeking.

Ok 👍🏾 

[ilumairen]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

Ok 👍🏾 

yeah... 

[blackfence]

13 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

I did say rudimentary to me, the person who believed they were engaged in conversation with you, and yet it appears you are speaking more to an audience than with me. 

 

I disagree. Here's what you wrote: 

 

"Do you understand how very rudimentary this idea of a label not being what is labeled is to me?"

 

That's not really the point of the distinction between stillness and Stillness. My point wasn't that stillness isn't the label "stillness." 

 

My point was that any state of mind, however still, is not enough.

 

So when you wrote originally: 
 

"What do you believe the experience would be if instead of “seeking” (for lack of a better term) stillness of mind, one begins with stillness of mind?"

 

If "one" "begins" with anything, that is a state of mind. If you're asking about what an experience would be like, that too would be a question about a state of mind.

 

So the stillness referred to here is a state of mind. As I just said, states of mind aren't Truth. That's the point. 

 

I'm responding to what you wrote. I have no idea about you beyond that.

[ilumairen]

9 minutes ago, blackfence said:

 

I disagree. Here's what you wrote: 

 

"Do you understand how very rudimentary this idea of a label not being what is labeled is to me?"

 

That's not really the point of the distinction between stillness and Stillness. My point wasn't that stillness isn't the label "stillness." 

 

My point was that any state of mind, however still, is not enough.

 

So when you wrote originally: 
 

"What do you believe the experience would be if instead of “seeking” (for lack of a better term) stillness of mind, one begins with stillness of mind?"

 

If "one" "begins" with anything, that is a state of mind. If you're asking about what an experience would be like, that too would be a question about a state of mind.

 

So the stillness referred to here is a state of mind. As I just said, states of mind aren't Truth. That's the point. 

 

I'm responding to what you wrote. I have no idea about you beyond that.

Let it go. You are to intellectualized for us to meaningfully connect at this point. All you write is about the words used, and it doesn’t appear you have a willingness or perhaps a capacity to look at what the words are attempting to convey. And I am uninvested, with no motivation to proceed with what to me are little more than word games.

 

I wish you well, and if, at some point you are reading a post I have made and actually find yourself understanding where the finger is pointing without getting caught up in the finger itself, I will welcome further interaction. Until then, this is a dance I’ve grown weary of and will not continue.

 

All the best to you on your path.

[blackfence]

Just now, ilumairen said:

Let it go. You are to intellectualized for us to meaningfully connect at this point. All you write is about the words used, and it doesn’t appear you have a willingness or perhaps a capacity to look at what the words are attempting to convey. And I am uninvested, with no motivation to proceed with what to me are little more than word games.

 

I wish you well, and if, at some point you are reading a post I have made and actually find yourself understanding where the finger is pointing without getting caught up in the finger itself, I will welcome further interaction. Until then, this is a dance I’ve grown weary of and will not continue.

 

All the best to you on your path.

Good luck on your quest.

[silent thunder]

finger points to moon.

if one watches the finger,

they may miss the moon.

[thelerner]

never mind

apologies for being flippant

Edited June 6, 2020 by thelerner

[forestofclarity]

Well this thread degraded quickly... 😵😱

[forestofclarity]

On 6/5/2020 at 3:40 AM, Creation said:

I'm astonished by your posts in this thread. What blackfence is describing is, to my mind, exactly what Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche was pointing to when he would say the nature of mind is like a mirror. Remember how Rinpoche would always say don't try to explain about direct introduction to certain sects that emphasize Madhyamaka dialectic because their logic negates it?  

 

Here is what ChNNR has to say about the mirror (Crystal p. 99):

 

 

 

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A mirror has neither form nor color. Yet when a red cloth is placed in front of it, it seems red, and with a green cloth in front of it, it seems green, and so on.  Thus, although a mirror's voidness is essentially infinite and formless, the mirror may fill itself with any content.

 

This is not the same, IMHO, as the idea that the Self is reflecting off of objects (like light off of a mirror). However, YMMV.

 

[blackfence]

58 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Here is what ChNNR has to say about the mirror (Crystal p. 99):

 

 

This is not the same, IMHO, as the idea that the Self is reflecting off of objects (like light off of a mirror). However, YMMV.

 

On p. 98 he writes "So the Zhi, the Base, the fundamental condition of the individual and of existence, is in essence void, and yet its nature is nevertheless to manifest. How it manifests is as Energy, and by way of example, this Energy is compared to the reflections that arise in a mirror. The master may once again show a mirror to the disciple and explain how the reflections that arise in it are the energy of the mirror's own inherent nature manifesting visibly."

 

Seems like a pretty close match to me, actually.

[forestofclarity]

Almost the opposite, actually. 

 

23 minutes ago, blackfence said:

On p. 98 he writes "So the Zhi, the Base, the fundamental condition of the individual and of existence, is in essence void, and yet its nature is nevertheless to manifest. How it manifests is as Energy, and by way of example, this Energy is compared to the reflections that arise in a mirror. The master may once again show a mirror to the disciple and explain how the reflections that arise in it are the energy of the mirror's own inherent nature manifesting visibly."

 

Seems like a pretty close match to me, actually.