Taoist Celestial Eye - Dzogchen Thogal

[Shagrath]

Hi all,

 

Recently I saw this video of Nathan Brine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi16r-tST98 about using the Celestial Eye in Taoist alchemy. That explanation sounded A LOT like Dzogchen's thogal. Slightly different narrative but seeing the lights and light visions are quite the same.

 

It was amazing to see this similarity is different traditions. Does anyone knows something about this? Are there any more Taoist sects next to Longmen sect that have this kind of practice?

 

Longmen sect is part of Quanzhen sect, which incorporated both Buddhist, Confucian and Taoist practices. Can one tell if celestial eye/thogal is historically Taoist practice borrowed by Bon/Buddhists or Bon/Buddhist practice borrowed by Taoists?

 

edit: maybe even both Taoist and Dzogchen came to same practice empirically. Who knows....

Edited June 3, 2020 by Shagrath

[freeform]

15 hours ago, Shagrath said:

Are there any more Taoist sects next to Longmen sect that have this kind of practice?

 

It's more of a side-branch within the Longmen tradition. It runs parallel to internal alchemy (which is the main 'trunk' of Longmen practice).

 

From my experience, the lineage that dives deepest into this form of practice (this includes 'golden flower' type practices) - is Shangqing Daoism (also known as Maoshan).

 

15 hours ago, Shagrath said:

edit: maybe even both Taoist and Dzogchen came to same practice empirically.

 

I imagine this is most likely the case - as the 'light' is the same light as seen in states of jhanic absorption - and then worked with in a more 'tantric' approach.

[Shagrath]

10 hours ago, freeform said:

It's more of a side-branch within the Longmen tradition. It runs parallel to internal alchemy (which is the main 'trunk' of Longmen practice).

 

From my experience, the lineage that dives deepest into this form of practice (this includes 'golden flower' type practices) - is Shangqing Daoism (also known as Maoshan).

 

Thanks freeform,

 

I have couple questions about this. I would really appreciate your take on that.

 

1) In his online course Nathan Brine says there are taoist practices that are "higher" then neidan. Would you have any idea what it would that be? Some meditations?

 

2) What is the difference between golden flower and golden elixir? Some say its the same, and that those are just different names for true nature of one self.

 

3) Where can I find more about those practices? The only resource I know about Shangqing is book by Isabelle Robinet. Can you recommend some teachers, websites, books?

[forestofclarity]

This sounds more like nimitta, as a predecessor to jhana in the Visuddhimagga system (i.e. hard jhana). 

 

 

[freeform]

12 hours ago, Shagrath said:

1) In his online course Nathan Brine says there are taoist practices that are "higher" then neidan. Would you have any idea what it would that be? Some meditations?

 

I wouldn't like to guess what Nathan means by practices higher than neidan - way beyond my paygrade anyway

 

 

12 hours ago, Shagrath said:

2) What is the difference between golden flower and golden elixir? Some say its the same, and that those are just different names for true nature of one self.

 

They are two distinctly different processes... It may well be that they reach the same 'end goal' - but by different routes. One works by the transformation of the substances the other works by using meditative work combined with work on the central channel (and the various aspects of the upper dantien).

 

 

12 hours ago, Shagrath said:

3) Where can I find more about those practices? The only resource I know about Shangqing is book by Isabelle Robinet. Can you recommend some teachers, websites, books?

 

This level of practice is out of reach for most practitioners and the techniques and theory are shrouded in secrecy and impenetrable poetic explanations in classical works. It can only really be accessed with a teacher - and then you'd usually be an inner-door disciple for many years before being taught. This is especially true within Shangqing - as this sort of practice opens up a door into a huge range of 'siddhi' and sorcery type work.

 

That being said, you could try out Nathan's own book recently published... and Wang Li Ping's book too. I think they touch on these things.

 

Just remember that when you see your tooth in the mirror - you only see a small part of it - the majority of the tooth - the root - is actually hidden within the gums. So you might see practices working at this level - but you don't necessarily see that there's a whole range of foundational practices and attainments that make this stuff actually 'work'.

[Shagrath]

Thank you.

[Shagrath]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

I wouldn't like to guess what Nathan means by practices higher than neidan - way beyond my paygrade anyway

 

 

 

They are two distinctly different processes... It may well be that they reach the same 'end goal' - but by different routes. One works by the transformation of the substances the other works by using meditative work combined with work on the central channel (and the various aspects of the upper dantien).

 

 

 

This level of practice is out of reach for most practitioners and the techniques and theory are shrouded in secrecy and impenetrable poetic explanations in classical works. It can only really be accessed with a teacher - and then you'd usually be an inner-door disciple for many years before being taught. This is especially true within Shangqing - as this sort of practice opens up a door into a huge range of 'siddhi' and sorcery type work.

 

That being said, you could try out Nathan's own book recently published... and Wang Li Ping's book too. I think they touch on these things.

 

Just remember that when you see your tooth in the mirror - you only see a small part of it - the majority of the tooth - the root - is actually hidden within the gums. So you might see practices working at this level - but you don't necessarily see that there's a whole range of foundational practices and attainments that make this stuff actually 'work'.

 

Thank you very much for honest answer.  My wish is to learn Wang Liping system, but there are many unsurmountable obstacles. Earnings, country I live in, etc and yet I have high interest in those topics. Life can deal strange hands sometimes

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Shagrath said:

Thank you very much for honest answer.  My wish is to learn Wang Liping system, but there are many unsurmountable obstacles. Earnings, country I live in, etc and yet I have high interest in those topics. Life can deal strange hands sometimes

 

Sometimes seemingly insurmountable obstacles just fall away!

 

Hope that happens for you.

 

In terms of building the foundation from a Daoist perspective - I think Damo Mitchell's various books and courses are very good and would certainly give you the right foundations for WLP's system.

[idquest]

On 04/06/2020 at 1:50 PM, Shagrath said:

 

...

 

I have couple questions about this. I would really appreciate your take on that.

 

1) In his online course Nathan Brine says there are taoist practices that are "higher" then neidan. Would you have any idea what it would that be? Some meditations?

...

 

 

If you read Nathan's book, he explains this a bit. As I understand, neidan is a sort of a stepping stone to apply in real life what you have learned . There are five areas of such applications - 5 daoist arts - and WLP teaches them in his retreats. It is not that neidan is inferior and 5 daoists arts are superior - it is just to practice 5 arts you need some foundation, and the foundation is neidan.

[MIchael80]

On 3.6.2020 at 8:55 PM, Shagrath said:

Hi all,

 

Recently I saw this video of Nathan Brine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi16r-tST98 about using the Celestial Eye in Taoist alchemy. That explanation sounded A LOT like Dzogchen's thogal. Slightly different narrative but seeing the lights and light visions are quite the same.

 

It was amazing to see this similarity is different traditions. Does anyone knows something about this? Are there any more Taoist sects next to Longmen sect that have this kind of practice?

 

Longmen sect is part of Quanzhen sect, which incorporated both Buddhist, Confucian and Taoist practices. Can one tell if celestial eye/thogal is historically Taoist practice borrowed by Bon/Buddhists or Bon/Buddhist practice borrowed by Taoists?

 

edit: maybe even both Taoist and Dzogchen came to same practice empirically. Who knows....

Hi!

 

Sorry but this daoist technique,  as far as i understand has nothing in common with thöghal. 

 

Spirit light,  seen through the celestial eye is something different than thöghal. 

 

Thöghal is a meditation technique done with open eyes. 

It uses natural phenomena (looking below the Sun, sky Meditation or dark retreat)to trigger certain energetic changes.....basically a kind of open eyed samadhi. Where one progresses through the so called thöghal visions, which are manifestations of the structure of reality (how the 5 elements work together to form this reality).

 

Hope that helps. 

All the best!

Michael