Damo Mitchell Free MCO Course

[Zork]

3 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

You have a point.  But we are talking about Damo.  If he depends solely on novices and beginners, he would have been teaching English or having other part time jobs to subsidize his living.  The non-beginners is just a big market that cannot be ignored.    Everyone stucks somewhere,  and very much want to find out why they are stuck if not able to do from their existing channels, or out of curiosity or the urge to refine technique, an online teacher is invaluable.  They don't have to abandon their existing teachers and may be able to show off among other students.  It is like a school kid goes for private tuition.  These people have different requirements from beginners.  This is a business issue, not cultivation.  

 

 

 

Yes, revenue protection purpose.

It seems like the western approach to training. Mass train everyone and hope for the best. Eastern methods are more personal and unsuitable to building a business around it.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

It seems like the western approach to training. Mass train everyone and hope for the best. Eastern methods are more personal and unsuitable to building a business around it.

Actually - it’s the other way round.

 

I don’t know if you’ve trained in Asia - but in my experience it’s very different.

 

Firstly high level teachers will refuse to teach you… they may send you to one of their seniors or another teacher in the same tradition.

 

There you’ll be one of the hundreds if not thousands of students. No instructions - just stand. Or just move like this.

 

 

No explanation just copy and hope for the best.

 

60% drop out quickly. Some stick around but not get anything… a tiny minority will have some talent and begin to show signs of development. 
 

The teacher will give them some small instruction - something seemingly trivial and then wait to see if they follow the instructions correctly.

 

If they do, they’ll get another minor instruction… and repeat that for months or years.

 

(if they don’t follow the instructions, no more will be given)

 

Follow all the instructions properly, and achieve the required result and eventually, you might be invited to join the circle of seniors where the real instructions are given. (This isn’t the ‘inner door’ yet)

 

You need to prove yourself again over many months and years… and eventually you might be introduced to a high level teacher who will test you.

Pass the test and you will get more instructions… you’ll have to pass a test at each level of instruction. Most people fail the test.

 

Out of the thousands that start only one or two will ever get instructions from the high level teacher of the lineage.

 

The majority will quit… and the rest will remain in the big group copying movements.

Edited October 18, 2021 by freeform

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

Let me politely say that if you were a psychic asking for money, i wouldn't pay you, because you are way off

Damn and I was just dusting off my crystal ball! 🔮

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

It seems like the western approach to training. Mass train everyone and hope for the best. Eastern methods are more personal and unsuitable to building a business around it.

 

A columnist has written.  The traditional China training system is for producing a few supermen, while wasting the majority.  The western approach is for the masses like you say.  @freeform's latest post say it excellently.

 

I always wonder how to charge for teaching Neidan.  It is more a coaching system than a classroom.  I mean the core Neidan training, not the lower levels like movement sets.  Just for an example, a teacher gives a one hour course, the student then is left to work on his own, sitting everyday, may be the teacher will review his situation periodically, and give further instructions.  If the student encounters something interesting, he can always refer to the teacher.   As you may expect, very soon, there would be no more new developments everyday.  It is unlike other sport coaches.  Only when the student progresses to another level, then another lesson will be given.

 

So how does the teacher charge?  A hefty lump sum fee for everything?   Some periodic consultation fees?  Monthly fee?   No wonder there is so few avenues for Neidan training.   Almost all teachers teach ChiKung, Taichi, Neigong.....and tell you they are part of Neidan.  Not untrue, but not accurate either.

 

 

[Zork]

10 minutes ago, freeform said:

Actually - it’s the other way round.

 

I don’t know if you’ve trained in Asia - but in my experience it’s very different.

 

Firstly high level teachers will refuse to teach you… they may send you to one of their seniors or another teacher in the same tradition.

 

There you’ll be one of the hundreds if not thousands of students. No instructions - just stand. Or just move like this.

 

 

No explanation just copy and hope for the best.

 

60% drop out quickly. Some stick around but not get anything… a tiny minority will have some talent and begin to show signs of development. 
 

The teacher will give them some small instruction - something seemingly trivial and then wait to see if they follow the instructions correctly.

 

If they do, they’ll get another minor instruction… and repeat that for months or years.

 

(if they don’t follow the instructions, no more will be given)

 

Follow all the instructions properly, and achieve the required result and eventually, you might be invited to join the circle of seniors where the real instructions are given. (This isn’t the ‘inner door’ yet)

 

You need to prove yourself again over many months and years… and eventually you might be introduced to a high level teacher who will test you.

Pass the test and you will get more instructions… you’ll have to pass a test at each level of instruction. Most people fail the test.

 

Out of the thousands that start only one or two will ever get instructions from the high level teacher of the lineage.

 

The majority will quit… and the rest will remain in the big group copying movements.

And what is Damo doing right now if it isn't this thing exactly?

All people that join aim for Neidan. None will get it.

 

You and me are saying the same thing. In the East the teacher will only bother with the exceptional. Not random people enrolling at a master's class for money. In the west they will teach everyone everything and hope it gets into their heads. There is no diversification of pace for those who are too dim or too bright.

 

[Zork]

11 minutes ago, freeform said:

Damn and I was just dusting off my crystal ball! 🔮

Use the iron abacus. It is better. But it doesn't work for cultivators at all.

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

Eastern methods are more personal and unsuitable to building a business around it.

 

The tuition fee for the 10 days is $4000 dollars US, with lodging & airfare to be arranged separately.

 

Your lack of insight into the matter really knows no bounds does it?

 

[refugeindharma]

6 hours ago, Zork said:

The problem is that the whole course is structured like that and that you can't access anything new until a week has passed. There are cases where he has split a qigong system in 3 parts and you get part 1 and 2 in two successive weeks and part 3, 7-8 weeks later!

You get a lot of superfluous nonsense* just to keep you occupied and feel that the money you paid was worth it.

Hint: The course isn't worth it. The course is designed to be a money sink. Good luck talking to Damo or his senior student by the way if you want to ask questions.....

 

*For example there is something called Ya Sheng Fa which has parts like preparing for the day, preparing for bed, etc which are separate lessons that are the teachings of the whole week!

 

That's just the Nei Gong Course, there's also the Bagua and Tai Ji courses that unlock new videos/lessons each week if one wishes to practice either of them - granted one has the time and energy.

 

Besides that, depending on whether you pay monthly or annually, there are also other recorded classes/events that he has done in the past that one can look into... Including free Zoom sessions he has held on various topics since opening the academy. 

 

And for a beginner, the "Fundamentals of Qi Gong" video series (I think about 30 hours?) that is available immediately is already enough to work on for 2 to 3 years just learning the Wuji standing technique and the Ji Ben Qi Gong set properly. 

 

Also Damo replies very often and quite quickly through the FB group for any direct questions, some of his senior students also help out and share their insights as well.

 

What Damo teaches is something that requires high repetition and countless hours to make progress in... just like with any art or skill. It's reps upon reps upon reps and putting countless hours to attain skill to any advanced or high degree. It's not about getting bombarded with new fancy teachings and things that provide novelty and stimulus each week to entice one to chase after the next shiny gold object (although tbh it can feel like this because of how much gets taught and how much there is to learn). 

 

I think the course is well beyond worth it for what he charges for it. Especially when you compare it to other offerings that are out there. Or to what lengths people before the internet age had to go through in order to access such teachings. Or if you just compare it to what a local Qi Gong class might charge, or what most other hobbies in today's age might cost you. 

 

Many students actually mention that they can't actually keep up with the weekly video releases either whether due to lack of time or because there is simply too much material/practices to maintain and continue incorporating so it gets somewhat difficult to juggle.

 

I don't think the course is designed to be a money sink. It's been designed rather deliberately, Damo has talked about this in previous videos of his and shared his thoughts on why it is as it is with the weekly unlocks and all.

 

Just my 2c as a counterpoint 

[Zork]

59 minutes ago, refugeindharma said:

 

And for a beginner, the "Fundamentals of Qi Gong" video series (I think about 30 hours?) that is available immediately is already enough to work on for 2 to 3 years just learning the Wuji standing technique and the Ji Ben Qi Gong set properly. 

can you point me to the lineage that the Ji Ben gong comes from? Do you know what ji ben means?

you should know all the zz stances in your system by the end of your first year. By the 3rd year you should be ready and able to stand in each stance for an hour at least. Just doing wuji alone won't get you anywhere. It is a waste of time. ji ben is also a waste of time.

 

If you like the course, good for you but it won't lead where you think it will and it isn't worth the time you waste.(the value of money is subjective)

Edited October 18, 2021 by Zork

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, refugeindharma said:

 

That's just the Nei Gong Course, there's also the Bagua and Tai Ji courses that unlock new videos/lessons each week if one wishes to practice either of them - granted one has the time and energy.

 

Besides that, depending on whether you pay monthly or annually, there are also other recorded classes/events that he has done in the past that one can look into... Including free Zoom sessions he has held on various topics since opening the academy. 

 

And for a beginner, the "Fundamentals of Qi Gong" video series (I think about 30 hours?) that is available immediately is already enough to work on for 2 to 3 years just learning the Wuji standing technique and the Ji Ben Qi Gong set properly. 

 

Also Damo replies very often and quite quickly through the FB group for any direct questions, some of his senior students also help out and share their insights as well.

 

What Damo teaches is something that requires high repetition and countless hours to make progress in... just like with any art or skill. It's reps upon reps upon reps and putting countless hours to attain skill to any advanced or high degree. It's not about getting bombarded with new fancy teachings and things that provide novelty and stimulus each week to entice one to chase after the next shiny gold object (although tbh it can feel like this because of how much gets taught and how much there is to learn). 

 

I think the course is well beyond worth it for what he charges for it. Especially when you compare it to other offerings that are out there. Or to what lengths people before the internet age had to go through in order to access such teachings. Or if you just compare it to what a local Qi Gong class might charge, or what most other hobbies in today's age might cost you. 

 

Many students actually mention that they can't actually keep up with the weekly video releases either whether due to lack of time or because there is simply too much material/practices to maintain and continue incorporating so it gets somewhat difficult to juggle.

 

I don't think the course is designed to be a money sink. It's been designed rather deliberately, Damo has talked about this in previous videos of his and shared his thoughts on why it is as it is with the weekly unlocks and all.

 

Just my 2c as a counterpoint 

 

Of course it is well worth it 

 

Ignore the self proclaimed novice....they speaks from a position of  total ignorance on these matters 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

you should

With all due respect - it’s best you focus on your own training before giving advice on stuff you haven’t achieved and don’t understand.

 

I only ever give advice on stuff I can do and only when someone asks… this is out of respect for those who want to learn and for the traditions that have been passed down over centuries.

 

I’m happy to speculate and discuss stuff - but I’m clear when something is beyond my level.

 

1 hour ago, Zork said:

doing wuji alone won't get you anywhere

As someone who’s stood in wuji for many thousands of hours, I can tell you that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

[Cleansox]

2 hours ago, Zork said:

 

you should know all the zz stances in your system by the end of your first year.

In my school, we spend the first year in one stance. 

The rest are given one at the time, if the student manage to stand in them for the prescribed time, and make sufficient progress. 

2 hours ago, Zork said:

By the 3rd year you should be ready and able to stand in each stance for an hour at least. 

I would like to see someone stand in one of our more strenous stances for so long. Wouldn't care to go that route myself though, since it is more efficient in the long run to spend a few more months on it before moving on. 

[freeform]

21 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

In my school, we spend the first year in one stance. 

 

It took me about 2 to 3 thousand hours of standing in the first stance (wuji) to get it 'right'. (And that was about the average for my peers... no one had it in less than ~2000 hours)

 

Of course I thought I had it 'right' at hour 10... then I thought I finally got it at hour 100... at hour 1000 I was certain it must be right... but each time I had only reached a plateau - and each time my teacher told me to persevere... and I would discover a whole new level of depth that was completely out of view for me previously.

 

24 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

I would like to see someone stand in one of our more strenous stances for so long. Wouldn't care to go that route myself though

 

My teacher never spared us from eating bitter

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

My teacher never spared us from eating bitter

Standing with both hands above the head for an hour is pleasant when getting used to it. 

Some of the assymetric stuff we do, on the other hand,.... 😖

 

About getting it "right": I would say that every time I take a period with a stance, things evolve and stabilize, a few years later when returning to it, there is another level of experience. 

 

If I had a point with these few last posts, it would be that it is difficult to judge another tradition by how it is done in "my" tradition. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Cleansox
Added stuff

[refugeindharma]

12 hours ago, Zork said:

can you point me to the lineage that the Ji Ben gong comes from? Do you know what ji ben means?

you should know all the zz stances in your system by the end of your first year. By the 3rd year you should be ready and able to stand in each stance for an hour at least. Just doing wuji alone won't get you anywhere. It is a waste of time. ji ben is also a waste of time.

 

If you like the course, good for you but it won't lead where you think it will and it isn't worth the time you waste.(the value of money is subjective)

It's the QuanZhen lineage I believe, otherwise the Longmen, I don't recall which exactly or if they're the same. Ji Ben (基本) means basic or fundamental. 

 

From my distorted perception it seems that you hold on to a lot of assumptions and beliefs when it comes to these arts (either that or you have a bit of a soft-on for Damo). Perhaps you could try turning the light around and illuminating within. Thanks for sharing your opinion

[Zork]

4 hours ago, refugeindharma said:

It's the QuanZhen lineage I believe, otherwise the Longmen, I don't recall which exactly or if they're the same. Ji Ben (基本) means basic or fundamental. 

It isn't from the lineages you mention. It just means basic foundation work.

 

4 hours ago, refugeindharma said:

From my distorted perception it seems that you hold on to a lot of assumptions and beliefs when it comes to these arts (either that or you have a bit of a soft-on for Damo). Perhaps you could try turning the light around and illuminating within. Thanks for sharing your opinion

Oh another "master" from Damo's lineage giving advice... wow i am impressed.....

 

15 hours ago, freeform said:

With all due respect - it’s best you focus on your own training before giving advice on stuff you haven’t achieved and don’t understand.

 

I only ever give advice on stuff I can do and only when someone asks… this is out of respect for those who want to learn and for the traditions that have been passed down over centuries.

 

I’m happy to speculate and discuss stuff - but I’m clear when something is beyond my level.

I don't need any authority to judge the program at all. I don't need anyone to tell me that "qi emission" on his syllabus on the 3rd year is sh*t.

After all the trash you talked about faqi, do you endorse this syllabus?

You know it takes at least 4-5 years of dedicated training with the master present to emit qi.

He promises something that he won't deliver!

Look at week 31. Practice with incense? Yep that is a whole week worth  of teaching! The 26th week is about... leg rotations!

Reverse breathing upgrade??? Seriously. One whole lesson? You support this kind of teaching curriculum @freeform ?

 

Wanna see year 4? Connect with trees! Tree-hugging 101!

 

Do you know what is wrong with all of you? You want me to stop expressing my opinion by appealing to authority. What authority? Since when taoism deals in absolutes?

It doesn't work that way because the thread isn't about me and what I do but about a teaching course. Now let's get back in topic.

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Zork

[Zork]

The course is chock full of nonsense. Look for yourselves.

 

mobilising qigong 3 comes 12 weeks after the first two sets! What do you learn in-between? see for yourselves! There is five weeks of fillers that could be one and who knows how much more nonsense. And there is always gems like setting the shoulders in year two. Why not wait for year 3 or 4 to correct shoulder alignment? It isn't like it will create problems to newbies! will it?

 

No no no don't go, there is more entertainment to be had! Give it all away! on week 51! Now we are talking!

[refugeindharma]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

Now let's get back in topic.

 

I agree, perhaps we should get back on to discussing the MCO course found here: https://damomitchell.com/2020/03/23/microcosmic-orbit/ in this thread titled "Damo Mitchell Free MCO Course"

[Zork]

1 hour ago, refugeindharma said:

 

I agree, perhaps we should get back on to discussing the MCO course found here: https://damomitchell.com/2020/03/23/microcosmic-orbit/ in this thread titled "Damo Mitchell Free MCO Course"

yep. just remember to enroll for classes and do ldt work after orbit and then orbit work again. Success is guaranteed!

[Frederic]

Thank you for sharing parts of his syllabus Zork. Looks amazing. I really hope I can join in a year or so

[Zork]

2 hours ago, Frederic said:

Thank you for sharing parts of his syllabus Zork. Looks amazing. I really hope I can join in a year or so

go ahead. Caveat emptor.

 

What you really need to consider is the karma exchange between teacher and student at higher level teachings and since most "aspiring immortals" here have more than desirable karma there are 3 possible things happening:

1. He doesn't care exchanging/interweaving karma with you by sharing high level things. I don't think, that this is happening because i don't believe that Damo is stupid.
2. He has so much good karma or a very good way to burn it away. Unless we are talking about a messianic figure that appears once in a millenium at most, i don't think this is happening either. Which leaves us at....
3. He isn't going to teach you high level stuff so the karma intertwining won't happen. He will just take your money.

 

Do what you please. I have nothing more to say in this thread.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Zork

[Vajra Fist]

The trouble with these arts is that you aren't supposed to learn some amazing new meditation every single week, and bounce from one practice to the next. In between learning new stuff, there are lessons that specifically refer back to previous material, to give you a new insight into practice. 

 

There were lessons in the taiji syllabus that I initially wrote off as 'filler'. I was frustrated at certain points that I wasn't learning a new sequence to the form every week. But I went with it, and those lessons, like kua opening exercises, or revisiting the grasp sparrow's tail sequence using different principles, eventually became invaluable. In the meantime I was revising and practicing all the previous content.

 

So, when I started learning new sections of the form, I had a more sophisticated understanding of where the attention should be directed. Personally I didn't find much in the way of padding or filler in the course. There's so much material and if anything it was at a quite challenging pace. 

 

Sorry if I seem dismissive of your criticisms of the course. I genuinely feel though that those best placed to judge a practice are those who have at least tried it.

 

You say people shouldn't have any faith that what Damo is teaching will yield results. But believing it won't, without having tried it yourself is another form of blind faith.

 

It's like what the Buddha said in the Kalama Sutta. Try it for yourself. If you don't feel that you are getting results, then discard it. Come and tell us all about it then.

 

But with respect, as someone who hasn't tried it, I don't think you're able to speak with the same authority, as other students here who have tried it.

 

(It should be said, that I haven't practiced his neigong, and I don't feel qualified to offer a firm statement on whether or not it does or doesn't work. Just my own opinion, that I believe it most likely does.)

 

 

[Shadow_self]

4 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

The trouble with these arts is that you aren't supposed to learn some amazing new meditation every single week, and bounce from one practice to the next. In between learning new stuff, there are lessons that specifically refer back to previous material, to give you a new insight into practice. 

 

There were lessons in the taiji syllabus that I initially wrote off as 'filler'. I was frustrated at certain points that I wasn't learning a new sequence to the form every week. But I went with it, and those lessons, like kua opening exercises, or revisiting the grasp sparrow's tail sequence using different principles, eventually became invaluable. In the meantime I was revising and practicing all the previous content.

 

So, when I started learning new sections of the form, I had a more sophisticated understanding of where the attention should be directed. Personally I didn't find much in the way of padding or filler in the course. There's so much material and if anything it was at a quite challenging pace. 

 

Sorry if I seem dismissive of your criticisms of the course. I genuinely feel though that those best placed to judge a practice are those who have at least tried it.

 

You say people shouldn't have any faith that what Damo is teaching will yield results. But believing it won't, without having tried it yourself is another form of blind faith.

 

It's like what the Buddha said in the Kalama Sutta. Try it for yourself. If you don't feel that you are getting results, then discard it. Come and tell us all about it then.

 

But with respect, as someone who hasn't tried it, I don't think you're able to speak with the same authority, as other students here who have tried it.

 

(It should be said, that I haven't practiced his neigong, and I don't feel qualified to offer a firm statement on whether or not it does or doesn't work. Just my own opinion, that I believe it most likely does.)

 

 

 

They are speaking from a place of no knowledge whatsoever...a self proclaimed novice with a weird attachment to the fa qi phenomenon...and nothing of use to add

 

Pretty much a mirror image of every Mo Pai zealot that came before them

 

I see a lot of talking and shouting, wrapped in a bouquet of logical fallacies and cognitive biases...but nothing of actual substance or meaningful discussion

 

To put it bluntly, they have no idea what they are talking about...

[Vajra Fist]

21 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

They are speaking from a place of no knowledge whatsoever...a self proclaimed novice with a weird attachment to the fa qi phenomenon...and nothing of use to add

 

Pretty much a mirror image of every Mo Pai zealot that came before them

 

I see a lot of talking and shouting, wrapped in a bouquet of logical fallacies and cognitive biases...but nothing of actual substance or meaningful discussion

 

To put it bluntly, they have no idea what they are talking about...

 

Not sure that's 100% fair. Zork is an old hand here, and has a fair amount of experience in internal arts. 

 

But while I accept he probably has a good basis for an opinion, in this instance, I don't believe he has a good enough basis for a statement of fact. Apologies Zork, no offence intended.

[freeform]

42 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

those best placed to judge a practice are those who have at least tried it.

Spot on.

 

@Zork might be fun to have a drink with - or someone to invite to liven up a dull dinner party… but not someone to go to for nuanced insight on cultivation.