Damo Mitchell Free MCO Course

[Shadow_self]

10 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Not sure that's 100% fair. Zork is an old hand here, and has a fair amount of experience in internal arts. 

 

But while I accept he probably has a good basis for an opinion, in this instance, I don't believe he has a good enough basis for a statement of fact. Apologies Zork, no offence intended.

 

3 years ago he was claiming the title of novice......thats not what i'd consider an old hand....

 

I have regularly ran the material by people with 10+ years experience....and people with lineage specific insights....the same answers come back every time....it is authentic...

 

But by all means, you are most welcome, and I say this sincerely, to show me a shred of real evidence where anything said individual stated that places the efficacy of that system into questions hold credence... because honestly...all I see is conjecture, fallacy and bias in large amounts....which is unsurprising really

[Shadow_self]

Another point or two worth noting,

 

I know of individuals who have training in actual, genuine fa qi focused lineages, who have dropped those practices in favour of the material above....practices that cost a lot of money, time and effort to learn. Ones they had dedicated years too.....I wont get into the why....but that's what they did.

 

The idea that spiritual cultivation ( which is what is actually important and the actual goal of neidan) is somehow inexplicitly dependant on being able to emit an electric like current is simply a non runner.....it is just not true....there are only certain lines who are focused on this type of stuff....and really, it is just that...one way of approaching things. You can be a John Chang like being, and still be a completely deplorable individual...so yeah..fa qi would not be a good benchmark for a system of spiritual cultivation

 

Moreover, I imagine if people were to get access to authentic practices from Shangqing, Maoshan or even some of the lesser known ones from the Longmen/Quanzhen lineages....they would soon have their eyes opened to some far higher level things than qi emission....the important point here, is that all that foundational material posted above...is what allows the higher stuff to actually work....

 

Spend a few years practicing Damos material diligently, and approach a high level master....they will treat you VERY differently to how they would treat an average person. who had just been practicing systems without proper YJJ  principles and foundations running throughout the curriculum

 

People want to skip that hard work (and make no mistake it is very hard, physically just as much as mentally)..but really it is key to opening up so much of the internal arts

 

[freeform]

15 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

People want to skip that hard work

This is the main reason people quit genuine schools. It’s the reason most quit my teacher’s system.

 

And to be honest - it’s a pretty good reason to quit!

 

There’s already so much to life… you need to do all the things that let you survive and even thrive in life… you’re responsible for the thriving and surviving of many other people…

 

so being told that to get anywhere in alchemy requires at least 2 to 4hrs a day (and regular periods of much more)… and it’s decades of this work. And much of it is unpleasant and difficult and boring - of course that’s too much to ask for the vast majority of people.

 

quitting is the most sane thing to do!

 

go raise your kids well… help people… grow a business that creates value for others.

 

This spiritual stuff is rarely a good choice.
 

but equally it’s rarely a choice at all… 

 

For me it’s like it chose me… I’m ready to give up most things to pursue this weird path. I have no illusion that I’ll get much out of it… but I’m still hooked.

 

Others would say - hey but you have all this endless energy… could function at 100% on a little sleep… feel great all the time… rarely feel anxious, stressed or down… learn complex things easily… stay completely focused and in the flow for hours… be able to turn on charm and charisma at will etc etc… they see these as ‘benefits’ that you could ‘get’.

 

But what they don’t see is that I’ve spent thousands and thousands of hours on this… I’ve spent all my money on it… I’ve left a successful career… I’ve sold all my belongings. I’ve had to drop many relationships and friendships… I’ve let people down… I’ve sweated, bled, injured myself and been in the most excruciating pain imaginable for hours at a time… I’ve had to meet the worst parts of me… I’ve had to let go of the best parts of me… I’ve had to find out that the parts I thought were good were just selfishness masquerading as good… I’ve had to deal with going functionally blind and mute for a time… I’ve had to endure being bored with my training… repeating the same unpleasant, tedious, boring stuff day after day after day - with no improvement and no hope in sight… And still I feel like I’m a beginner - and have little hope for the level of growth required.

 

Is that all worth having more energy? Or being able to enter some meditative state or focus well?

 

(‘yes’ is the wrong answer here! 😂)

 

And to be honest that’s how it should be. Spirituality should be a deep calling that compels you. Not something you choose because you like the sound of it… or you think it will fix you… or make you more xxxx (strong, content, happy).

 

It probably won’t. Not in the way that you want. Even if it does - you’ll have to give up so much that in real terms what you ‘get out of it’ is really not worth it.

 

Knowing that this is all true - if you’re still compelled - then go for it. Join the club of weirdos  

 

If not then go and do something good for other people. It’s less effort, it will make you happier - it will make others happier and you’ll probably have a better life doing it.

 

And while we’re at it, I honestly think qigong is overrated for healing. I think most people would get much more benefit from a better diet and weekly dancing with friends - with  maybe some regular acupuncture - than they would from hours and hours of most qigong forms. 

[anshino23]

Truly beautiful and profound words there by @freeform. Those with the eyes to see and the ears to hear... Thank you for that.   For those that do not have it, they will not 'get it'. There's so much pain involved in this process... and in this choice... and in this Path. To think otherwise is to be foolish. The Dharma is not free - not in any sense of the word. I think each person has to come to terms with their actual motivation for 'living forever' or 'spiritual immortality' or any such high concept... and really search out their heart. 

 

To be frank and honest to thus bring more to this conversation I would say much of my motivation most likely comes from having had a tough childhood with a not-so-present mother and lacking that love and attention that many others may have received naturally. A sort of deep wound. I initially entered the spiritual scene to try and 'fix myself' exactly as freeform mentions. Or to become a 'star' to receive the love and adoration of others because that is what I lacked growing up  

 

I would say the spiritual path I walked upon caused more harm than good. Maybe. I can't see karmic threads and trees of cause of effect, unfortunately. That said, I only imagine I would have done better if I had been pushed into starting a martial art and socialized more, worked on becoming more disciplined, fixing 'basic issues' in my life, and going against my more introverted reclusive nature rather than succumbing to the idea of being on some grand spiritual mission where I had to 'leave the homelife' to 'escape samsara' as if it was a simple thing... In a past life no doubt I was a mendicant religious priest of some sort. It would explain where that tendency and inclination would come from and also the very 'magical thinking' that led me to join a spiritual community promising 'salvation' and being part of an 'authentic Mission to save humanity'. 

 

On the other hand, I learned a lot about myself and what the true spiritual path takes in terms of effort and dedication after finally being exposed to authentic teachings. So nowadays if people ask me about spiritual stuff, I just get plain honest and down-to-earth and ask them what it is that they really want or give plain advice like eat better, exercise more, socialize more. In most cases, they don't want anything to do with the real Path.. they just to have more control and happiness in their lives. And now, I totally get it. Back then, I would judge them for not wanting to 'escape samsara'. What a funny turn of events.  

[Maddie]

20 hours ago, freeform said:

And while we’re at it, I honestly think qigong is overrated for healing. I think most people would get much more benefit from a better diet and weekly dancing with friends - with  maybe some regular acupuncture - than they would from hours and hours of most qigong forms. 

 

I have found this to be the case my personal experience. I gave Qigong an honest try for several years and honestly didn't really notice that much difference or benefit. As an acupuncturist I think I can get more health benefits and needling myself for 20 minutes then doing hours of qigong. I recently just started doing the workout videos that my teenage daughter does for fitness and I actually started noticing a lot more health benefit from that than I ever did doing Qigong. And as far as meditation goes I eventually switched over to Buddha's practices because I felt like that Qigong meditation was driving me crazy. 

 I think the thing that disturbs me about the Qigong movement and taoism in general is that it's hard to get clear answers to what exactly is going on and I get the feeling the reason is because most people don't know what's going on.

  I also agree with freeform that getting into spirituality to get powers is the worst reason that you can get into spirituality. What sense does it make spending your entire life learning how to start a fire with your hand when you can do the same thing with a 90-cent lighter in 5 seconds?

Edited October 20, 2021 by dmattwads

[Cleansox]

Qigong, as in some qigong forms, work on very useful psychological and physiological mechanisms that can be very healing. 

 

That is, especially for the person that have specific emotional and autonomic dysregulation problems, often when more physical activity push the bodymind outside of the terapeutic window, or the individual is unable to perform more physical activity for other reasons. 

 

A young and healthy individual might experience more positive outcomes from other regimes. Few things fix everything for everyone. 

 

Regulating diet, sleep patterns, and having a balance between rest and activity builds the base for health, no argument about that. 

 

And yes, some methods are just mental exercises. 😁 

[dwai]

21 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

some methods are just mental exercises

I find it a bit amusing to hear of something trivialized as “just mental exercises”. Not personal, not intended as such. If someone can focus their mind enough to run through even 15 mins of a sequence of exercises with mindfulness, it’s not wasted time at all, and there are a plethora of psycho-spiritual-somatic benefits that come with it. 
 

Same goes for practices that use “visualization” — I think there is a tendency to be condescending towards these among some practitioners, because a misguided sense of bravado emanates from them (“ooh look at me…I’m so tough/smart/spiritual/knowledgeable - I’m doing the ‘real’ thing!”) , as  if they’ve got an exclusive license on  authenticity or validity of qigong/neigong/yoga/whatever.
 

In my experience, if one is able to visualize with great detail something, it implies a great degree of experiential familiarity. 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

I find it a bit amusing to hear of something trivialized as “just mental exercises”. Not personal, not intended as such. If someone can focus their mind enough to run through even 15 mins of a sequence of exercises with mindfulness, it’s not wasted time at all, and there are a plethora of psycho-spiritual-somatic benefits that come with it. 
 

Same goes for practices that use “visualization” — I think there is a tendency to be condescending towards these among some practitioners, because a misguided sense of bravado emanates from them (“ooh look at me…I’m so tough/smart/spiritual/knowledgeable - I’m doing the ‘real’ thing!”) , as  if they’ve got an exclusive license on  authenticity or validity of qigong/neigong/yoga/whatever.
 

In my experience, if one is able to visualize with great detail something, it implies a great degree of experiential familiarity. 

 

I think the confusion with visualization is what it is used for, what it can do, and where the mistakes are

 

Very often you hear visualise the qi moving this way, or visualize this beam of light, or these currents/colours running in and out

 

The problem, from what I have understood with that is two fold...and this is just an opinion

 

Firstly, it is engaging the mind in a way that can be counterproductive to practices involving energy....by the way of over-engaging the mind with a mental "stimulus"...The second issue, is that it can lead to false sensations....I don't think elaboration is required there

 

That being said, I'm fairly certain visualization is not entirely useless. For example it can be used productively in certain cases to train certain mental qualities as it is done in certain Buddhist lines (though its been relayed to me that this is only initially) , but my guess is that, it is the distinction between training a mental quality vs working with energy that people fail to make.... but if one is training a mental quality, then it may lend itself to other practices later on that do involve the physical energetic bodies....I assume this is a sequencing issue?

 

What further muddies this line is that in deeper meditative training, you do start to see very strange things. Colours lights etc...but what seems to have happened is wires appear to have been crossed, and so,  the understanding of the causality chain is incorrect

 

Before the misunderstanding

 

Person begins meditation -  Person's visual field becomes engulfed in white light

(Cause/Action)                                    (Effect/Response)

 

After the misunderstanding

 

Close your eyes a visualize a white light engulfing you in order to sink into a meditative state

                                 (Error)        (Effect/Response)                                                 (Cause/Action)

 

So it feels like some people mixed it up somewhere and that's what got passed down

 

Im not experienced enough to talk at length about that, but they are just my initial musings on the situation. I imagine the matter is far more detailed and complicated than this 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Shadow_self

[freeform]

15 hours ago, anshino23 said:

To be frank and honest to thus bring more to this conversation I would say much of my motivation most likely comes from having had a tough childhood with a not-so-present mother and lacking that love and attention that many others may have received naturally. A sort of deep wound. I initially entered the spiritual scene to try and 'fix myself' exactly as freeform mentions. Or to become a 'star' to receive the love and adoration of others because that is what I lacked growing up  

 

I totally relate.

 

I think most people come to these arts with a combination of 1. Introvert nature and 2. Needing to heal in some way.

 

And there's an interesting thing that happens... as you do this stuff, there's a simultaneous glimmer of spirituality as well as a promise of feeding the self - and eventually there's a division in the path.

 

It's often the people with a painful background to life that notice that faint glimmer, and notice an internal pull towards it.

 

15 hours ago, anshino23 said:

I learned a lot about myself and what the true spiritual path takes in terms of effort and dedication after finally being exposed to authentic teachings.

 

It's funny because there's no getting away from pain... you either get the pain of growth - or the pain of samsara.

 

26 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

fitness and I actually started noticing a lot more health benefit from that than I ever did doing Qigong.

 

Yup - totally.

 

In reality the majority of qigong is a very light, relaxed form of fitness. Great for releasing stress, for gently relaxing the body and mind... for releasing some of the bound up tensions that keep people in an anxious state of mind... it's great for the elderly, or the unwell. It's great for those completely out of touch with their bodies - or the chronically sedentary.

 

The qigong used for cultivation on the other hand is really not good for the frail and stressed. It's painful, unpleasant, and hard to do... it will easily cause issues... it takes a long time to start seeing benefits - way longer than most people are prepared to stick with. Often you get worse before you get better.

 

In reality you actually need to start with some strength, fitness and at least a reasonably healthy constitution and mental/emotional state to get anywhere with it.

 

Eventually, yes - you do become really robust and healthy and brimming with energy - and all that good stuff - way beyond what exercise, TCM, herbs or anything else can accomplish - but - the average person doesn't really need all that. The amount of work to get there is not really worth it.

 

Most people want to play 22 songs using 4 chords - not this.

 

Unless of course you just love exploring this stuff - or you're pulled by the divine to walk the path.

 

 

[Maddie]

7 minutes ago, freeform said:

- way longer than most people are prepared to stick with. Often you get worse before you get better.

 

This was definitely my experience with it. I thought it was going to make me feel great and in a lot of ways it started making me feel worse.

 Also yes I really don't think most people have the patience for it. As an acupuncturist I'll have people who have had a chronic issue for 20 years and then when one acupuncture treatment doesn't make them completely better they think it doesn't work. Most people's patience is definitely not adequate.

[freeform]

43 minutes ago, dwai said:

Same goes for practices that use “visualization” — I think there is a tendency to be condescending towards these among some practitioners

 

That's probably me right?

 

44 minutes ago, dwai said:

“ooh look at me…I’m so tough/smart/spiritual/knowledgeable - I’m doing the ‘real’ thing!”

 

I do say stuff like that all the time - so... it's definitely me

 

Of course 'some practitioners' react to what I say without really listening to the point.

 

Who has time for really listening and considering a layered perspective when there's a much more efficient knee jerk reaction begging to be triggered. Who doesn't love a bit of emotionally gratifying drama eh?

 

So again... for like the 10th time... there's nothing wrong with visualization.

 

It's fun. It can create some physiological reactions (imagine biting into a lemon - a bright yellow... tangy-smelling... mouth-puckering... super-juicy lemon wedge, bristling with acidity).

 

Yes there's a reaction.

 

It's just not 'cultivation'.

 

We even have methods in my tradition that use visualization as a practice... it's used for mental training - but there's no inkling that it will result in cultivation of the spirit or the generation or movement of Qi (beyond the normal life processes).

 

You won't achieve any sort of meditative insight with imagination. You won't build or move any meaningful level of Qi with imagination. Yes you'll stimulate the mind... yes you can affect your physiology... But that's not cultivation.

 

Some teachers use it as a kind of training-wheel... 'imagine a ball of qi' - it kinda focuses the mind on something semi-tangible when there's nothing else there. Ok - that's understandable, I don't agree with it - but I don't ridicule it. Because I assume when there's something more tangible, visualization is dropped.

 

But some teachers take this idea and just run with it. And their students end up imagining dragons having sex with tigers inside their belly while bagua symbols spin around them... while the big dipper is pouring divine sperm into their heads... and while the core of the earth is rising up through their hui yin and the double helix DNA shape is enveloping around their spine so on and on... And they're told that if they do this for a few weeks, they'll finally get enlightened and become immortal.

 

Happy to be condescending about stuff like that. I'll ridicule this over and over.

 

I'm not ridiculing the practitioners (who are being misled) I would never do that, I always support anyone who puts their time and effort into this stuff - I'm ridiculing the teachers who know full well that they never got enlightened this way - and they're still teaching this crap - I assume coz they're in too deep and need to make a living somehow.

 

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Qigong, as in some qigong forms, work on very useful psychological and physiological mechanisms that can be very healing. 

 

That is, especially for the person that have specific emotional and autonomic dysregulation problems, often when more physical activity push the bodymind outside of the terapeutic window, or the individual is unable to perform more physical activity for other reasons.

 

I assume you know way more about this than me.

 

I just remember my friend's mum with lots of chronic issues going to a qigong class for months. My friend asked for my advice (whether it's a good style)... I suggested he enroll her in a dance class at the same community centre instead - within a few weeks her attitude to life changed completely, she was calling friends more, laughing, smiling and just generally enjoying life more. Her chronic conditions weren't healed - but they just weren't causing nearly as much suffering for her as before.

 

I remember a more senior, top-performing colleague at work (back when I was a career man) would go choral singing 3 times a week... I really didn't get it. He was older, yes - but he just wasn't the type at all. I reluctantly went to a couple of these... now I can't sing for shit - but synchronising with a group of people and using the voice in this way was super uplifting - I was really surprised how profoundly it affected me... way more than the crappy 'follow the teacher and imagine stuff' qigong classes I was doing.

[Cleansox]

Just because some qigong is useful doesn't deny the fact that other methods also have healing aspects. 

 

We also have to match the cure to the disease, so to speak. 

I could analyze choire singing in a similar way as I can do with qigong, as I can with some forms of dancing. 

 

(Nerd-warning) 

[Cleansox]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

I find it a bit amusing to hear of something trivialized as “just mental exercises”.

Do you understand the difference between a method that uses a wide spectrum of psychological and physiological mechanisms, compared to something that is "just mental exercise"? 

 

Including how this, in the context of the post, is relevant for people that are likely to not being able to have the kind of focus you relate to the trained mind of a yogi? 

 

Or did you just want to look condescending? 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Cleansox
Added stuff

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Just because some qigong is useful doesn't deny the fact that other methods also have healing aspects. 

 

We also have to match the cure to the disease, so to speak. 

I could analyze choire singing in a similar way as I can do with qigong, as I can with some forms of dancing. 

 

(Nerd-warning) 

 

"ohh look at me… I’m so smart, knowledgeable and balanced in my perspectives!"

 

Only joking

 

I totally agree.

 

Things are not always black and white.

 

I just see a lot of really bad qigong around.

[Master Logray]

23 hours ago, freeform said:

But what they don’t see is that I’ve spent thousands and thousands of hours on this… I’ve spent all my money on it… I’ve left a successful career… I’ve sold all my belongings. I’ve had to drop many relationships and friendships… I’ve let people down… I’ve sweated, bled, injured myself and been in the most excruciating pain imaginable for hours at a time… I’ve had to meet the worst parts of me… I’ve had to let go of the best parts of me… I’ve had to find out that the parts I thought were good were just selfishness masquerading as good… I’ve had to deal with going functionally blind and mute for a time… I’ve had to endure being bored with my training… repeating the same unpleasant, tedious, boring stuff day after day after day - with no improvement and no hope in sight… And still I feel like I’m a beginner - and have little hope for the level of growth required.

 

 

If you restart from scratch again, would you pursue the same path or or pursue the same path in a different way?  e.g. would it be better to sit more than to stand so much?

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Cleansox said:

Do you understand the difference between a method that uses a wide spectrum of psychological and physiological mechanisms, compared to something that is "just mental exercise"? 

I do. I think I’d turn the question around and ask, “do you understand what mental exercise, when done repetitively with proper intention and focus does?” Hint: mantra meditation, Yantra meditation techniques as examples. It’s not just “mental exercise” — what is needed along with the mental practice is right teachings (not technique, but guidance). What do you think happens when one commits to and performs mantra meditation?

Quote

Including how this, in the context of the post, is relevant for people that are likely to not being able to have the kind of focus you relate to the trained mind of a yogi? 

Anyone who can diligently stick with a “lowly mental exercise” for a few months is already well on their way to developing a yogi-like mind. Stick with it for a few years, and you’ll see the effects tangibly. 
 

I think many of the newbies here (and to the internal arts in general) would do very well to develop their mental focus and tenacity. What I’ve seen usually is that people are eager to become “experts” before they’ve developed even a 10th of the mental capacity required to even fathom what it is they are trying to learn. 

Quote

 

Or did you just want to look condescending? 

I already said, I didn’t mean it to be personal. I just find the idea of it ridiculous, and tbh, the (i think it is inadvertent) gaslighting that happens to anyone who happens to deviate from the “accepted” path (i.e., accepted by an (extremely?) opinionated minority) also a bit amusing.  

Edited October 20, 2021 by dwai

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

 

If you restart from scratch again, would you pursue the same path or or pursue the same path in a different way?  e.g. would it be better to sit more than to stand so much?

 

I did a lot of travelling, exploring and experimenting early on in my journey… it was mostly a waste of time - but eventually it lead me to my tradition and my teacher… so I’m not sure I could change that.

I do wish I knew what real Qi felt like in the early exploratory phase. I was used to the 'visualise and copy movements' type qigong - I could feel all these faint, subtle sensations of heat, pressure. magnetism or buzzing... I'd get super excited... 'ooh I can feel pressure moving up my spine and down my front - I opened the MCO!' 🤦🏽‍♂️

Of course with hindsight all I was feeling is tactile sensations in response to focused attention and imagination. This is 'Qi' in a sense - it's a kind of localised arousal of the nerves... kinda like the qi that activates your salivary glands when you imagine sucking on a lemon... but it's not the Qi we generate as cultivators.

When I felt 'real' Qi for the first time was when walking into the field of the first genuinely skilled teacher I came across... just being near him I could immediately feel things moving and shifting in my spine and neck... I'd have all these clicks and pops as things adjusted.

Then he did a mild qi emission.

The difference between what I'd felt before and this was night and day... like the difference between imagining being slapped across the face - and actually being slapped across the face. Unambiguous, strong physical sensation coupled with a strong physical reaction from my body.

This meeting changed the course of my life. I feel I wasted many years before that. So a part of me does wish I had this meeting earlier. But maybe it was just the right thing at just the right time...

There are a couple of things I would do differently with my training early on.

Even after I came to my tradition, I was still trying to find shortcuts or find ways to go faster or better or whatever.

I used different supplements, additional training, methods from different teachers and various other systems…

I just had this idea that I can somehow improve on the process.

At the time I thought I was being clever… but I ended up creating problems that I had to solve later.

Rather than having full faith in my teacher, I would pick and choose practices he taught that I thought were more important and ignore ones that I thought didn't make sense or that weren't so important (or were difficult).

If I could start again I would not do that - but double down on the fundamentals and trust that my teacher knew way more about me and what I needed than what I thought I knew.

I eventually lived with and trained full time with my teacher for a prolonged period. That's when I didn't have any choice about what to practice and how... in terms of hours of training, it was similar to what I was doing before... but the results were very different. As things began to unfold before me I could see how foolish I was before. I saw just how silly I was, driven by my own foolhardy desires - and missing the precious opportunity I had in front of me.

I probably wasted a year or two doing things wrong - and then undoing the issues created. Time I could have spent much more efficiently as I had so much close contact with my teacher.

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by freeform

[Maddie]

13 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I did a lot of travelling, exploring and experimenting early on in my journey… it was mostly a waste of time - but eventually it lead me to my tradition and my teacher… so I’m not sure I could change that.

I do wish I knew what real Qi felt like in the early exploratory phase. I was used to the 'visualise and copy movements' type qigong - I could feel all these faint, subtle sensations of heat, pressure. magnetism or buzzing... I'd get super excited... 'ooh I can feel pressure moving up my spine and down my front - I opened the MCO!' 🤦🏽‍♂️

Of course with hindsight all I was feeling is tactile sensations in response to focused attention and imagination. This is 'Qi' in a sense - it's a kind of localised arousal of the nerves... kinda like the qi that activates your salivary glands when you imagine sucking on a lemon... but it's not the Qi we generate as cultivators.

When I felt 'real' Qi for the first time was when walking into the field of the first genuinely skilled teacher I came across... just being near him I could immediately feel things moving and shifting in my spine and neck... I'd have all these clicks and pops as things adjusted.

Then he did a mild qi emission.

The difference between what I'd felt before and this was night and day... like the difference between imagining being slapped across the face - and actually being slapped across the face. Unambiguous, strong physical sensation coupled with a strong physical reaction from my body.

This meeting changed the course of my life. I feel I wasted many years before that. So a part of me does wish I had this meeting earlier. But maybe it was just the right thing at just the right time...

There are a couple of things I would do differently with my training early on.

Even after I came to my tradition, I was still trying to find shortcuts or find ways to go faster or better or whatever.

I used different supplements, additional training, methods from different teachers and various other systems…

I just had this idea that I can somehow improve on the process.

At the time I thought I was being clever… but I ended up creating problems that I had to solve later.

Rather than having full faith in my teacher, I would pick and choose practices he taught that I thought were more important and ignore ones that I thought didn't make sense or that weren't so important (or were difficult).

If I could start again I would not do that - but double down on the fundamentals and trust that my teacher knew way more about me and what I needed than what I thought I knew.

I eventually lived with and trained full time with my teacher for a prolonged period. That's when I didn't have any choice about what to practice and how... in terms of hours of training, it was similar to what I was doing before... but the results were very different. As things began to unfold before me I could see how foolish I was before. I saw just how silly I was, driven by my own foolhardy desires - and missing the precious opportunity I had in front of me.

I probably wasted a year or two doing things wrong - and then undoing the issues created. Time I could have spent much more efficiently as I had so much close contact with my teacher.

 

 

I'm curious in your experience with qi going to work in your body did you notice your meridians purging junk and like having random crap come out the end of the meridians in certain joints popping a lot for a while? Did you ever get randomly extremely aroused sexually for no apparent reason like you're just sitting there staring at the ground and then bam? I'm just trying to make sense of some things that I've experienced when doing lots of practice.

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I'm curious in your experience with qi going to work in your body did you notice your meridians purging junk and like having random crap come out the end of the meridians in certain joints popping a lot for a while?

 

Oh god - during the purging phase I had so many nasty experiences... vomiting, diarrhea... coughing up black nuggets of phlegm... my hands covered in thick, yellow stinky sweat... lots of stinky sweat actually. Bruises - lots of bruises...

 

Yes - I had blisters on the ends of fingers... puss oozing out from around the nail... My teacher did quite a few cupping treatments and I'd get thick clotted, congealed blood coming out.

 

I must've been one toxic young man!

 

Generally these things were short-lived and resolved quickly.

 

There was a point in time when the qi would work through the joints - and yes there was a lot of popping and things shifting and realigning (usually when doing chores, rather than during actual training)... I thought I was going to die when my skull started popping with searing pain and bright flashes each time... my teacher would laugh - not sure whether to put me at ease or coz he was genuinely entertained.

 

My teacher did something he called 'opening the channels' - basically used an acupuncture needle (not inserted) pointed at different areas and I'd feel this pressure work its way through my body, could physically see it working through my arms - like one of those balloons entertainers use for making animal figures... which was cool - at first... until the pain started... extreme pain - to such an extent that I thought I would lose consciousness... (I've been hit by metal shrapnel from a bullet that got sheared on a metal beam and tore through my thigh - but the channel inflation was worse.) The process lasted for 2 days... I couldn't sleep... then I had to do an alchemical practice called 'burning the channels'... which felt like boiling liquid making its way through these same inflated channels while I held ridiculously tough postures for hours (on no sleep).

 

I remember this stuff with a weird fondness now - but honestly at the time I remember almost quitting so many times. It wasn't always so intense - but for long periods I was on the verge of giving up. Questioning myself, my sanity. At times I was convinced my teacher was mad, and that I'm just really ill and maybe he's poisoning me. I'd get super paranoid... I'd have these nightmares and really freaky violent dreams... probably my mind purging too.
 

And just to say - other seniors told me that this wasn't the same experience they'd had... their purging was much less intense and lasted longer (they were also a lot more healthy than me overall) some parts of their training was more balanced and less extreme. They were generally very calm and a lot more talented than me at this stuff - that could also be why I had a harder time.

 

I think I also had the training accelerated because my teacher was planning to stop teaching in such a hands-on way, so wanted to complete the process as quickly as possible with me. And maybe it was partly to see if the foreigner could handle it

 

Equally there were long spans of boring training - plodding along, repeating the same routine day after day, seemingly not getting anywhere, stuck at a plateau.

 

21 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

Did you ever get randomly extremely aroused sexually for no apparent reason like you're just sitting there staring at the ground and then bam?

 

Yup. It's expected, but it's an issue - basically an aspect of your jing gets extracted and is turned into sexual arousal... it's almost as 'draining' as ejaculation... but it happens quite a bit at first. Takes a while before this pattern is changed and instead of transforming into sexual 'fluid', it will circulate and enter the dantien instead.

[Maddie]

20 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Oh god - during the purging phase I had so many nasty experiences... vomiting, diarrhea... coughing up black nuggets of phlegm... my hands covered in thick, yellow stinky sweat... lots of stinky sweat actually. Bruises - lots of bruises...

 

Yes - I had blisters on the ends of fingers... puss oozing out from around the nail... My teacher did quite a few cupping treatments and I'd get thick clotted, congealed blood coming out.

 

I must've been one toxic young man!

 

Generally these things were short-lived and resolved quickly.

 

There was a point in time when the qi would work through the joints - and yes there was a lot of popping and things shifting and realigning (usually when doing chores, rather than during actual training)... I thought I was going to die when my skull started popping with searing pain and bright flashes each time... my teacher would laugh - not sure whether to put me at ease or coz he was genuinely entertained.

 

My teacher did something he called 'opening the channels' - basically used an acupuncture needle (not inserted) pointed at different areas and I'd feel this pressure work its way through my body, could physically see it working through my arms - like one of those balloons entertainers use for making animal figures... which was cool - at first... until the pain started... extreme pain - to such an extent that I thought I would lose consciousness... (I've been hit by metal shrapnel from a bullet that got sheared on a metal beam and tore through my thigh - but the channel inflation was worse.) The process lasted for 2 days... I couldn't sleep... then I had to do an alchemical practice called 'burning the channels'... which felt like boiling liquid making its way through these same inflated channels while I held ridiculously tough postures for hours (on no sleep).

 

I remember this stuff with a weird fondness now - but honestly at the time I remember almost quitting so many times. It wasn't always so intense - but for long periods I was on the verge of giving up. Questioning myself, my sanity. At times I was convinced my teacher was mad, and that I'm just really ill and maybe he's poisoning me. I'd get super paranoid... I'd have these nightmares and really freaky violent dreams... probably my mind purging too.
 

And just to say - other seniors told me that this wasn't the same experience they'd had... their purging was much less intense and lasted longer (they were also a lot more healthy than me overall) some parts of their training was more balanced and less extreme. They were generally very calm and a lot more talented than me at this stuff - that could also be why I had a harder time.

 

I think I also had the training accelerated because my teacher was planning to stop teaching in such a hands-on way, so wanted to complete the process as quickly as possible with me. And maybe it was partly to see if the foreigner could handle it

 

Equally there were long spans of boring training - plodding along, repeating the same routine day after day, seemingly not getting anywhere, stuck at a plateau.

 

 

Yup. It's expected, but it's an issue - basically an aspect of your jing gets extracted and is turned into sexual arousal... it's almost as 'draining' as ejaculation... but it happens quite a bit at first. Takes a while before this pattern is changed and instead of transforming into sexual 'fluid', it will circulate and enter the dantien instead.

 

Ok, so this is all very interesting to hear from someone else. Since I approached this from the Buddhist side of things, this is stuff no one told me about but "surprise surprise" it happened. Especially the blister like things at the end of my fingers and palms, and certain joints especially particular vertebra cracking as loud as a gun sometimes.  

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

That being said, I'm fairly certain visualization is not entirely useless. For example it can be used productively in certain cases to train certain mental qualities as it is done in certain Buddhist lines (though its been relayed to me that this is only initially) , but my guess is that, it is the distinction between training a mental quality vs working with energy that people fail to make.... but if one is training a mental quality, then it may lend itself to other practices later on that do involve the physical energetic bodies....I assume this is a sequencing issue?

 

What further muddies this line is that in deeper meditative training, you do start to see very strange things. Colours lights etc...but what seems to have happened is wires appear to have been crossed, and so,  the understanding of the causality chain is incorrect

 

These are very relevant points. Though there isn't a "one size fits all" thing in spiritual practices. Yes, there are some basic/foundational practices one should do -- be that via mantra, yantra, physical movement, breathwork, and so on. The whole premise of the traditional systems around discipleship was that the student is allowed to develop their mental strength/quality before embarking on any other thing. Things like spending time around the teacher's school doing "free labor" were intended to develop a spirit and sense of service, eventually leading to the lessening of selfishness. Doing menial repetitive chores like grinding grains into flour, etc were done with the purpose of developing a sense of forbearance and detachment in the student, eventually leading to entering meditative states/purifying the mind and heart. 

In Vajrayana Buddhist practices, there are visualization practices done as part of deity yoga or guru yoga, where the practitioner "visualizes" interacting, and even embodies the deity of their practice. In Kundalini-based Yoga traditions, the practitioners may visualize the chakras as lotus flowers, and combine the use of silent seed mantras to activate and perform "kriyas" on these chakras. Tantric traditions will often involve similar visualizations, and the result is a massive movement of energy. In some cases the energy is subtle and in others, it is less subtle. These are not entry-level practices by any means, but the prerequisite is that the practitioner has developed their mental capabilities to a degree where they can maintain focus on the object of said meditations for extended periods of time. So, mental exercises are clearly necessary.

 

In my school (Temple Style Tai chi/Dao Gong) too, we start learning the form by following the teacher's movement, with a regular explanation of what to expect, what phenomena are important to note, which ones can be safely ignored, and so on. One of the main things about being a teacher in such a scenario is that they are able to transmit. If the teacher hasn't developed the ability to transmit energetically, the students will learn only the empty shell, copying only the movements. A good teacher will "fill" the space with their own field, and everyone who is studying with them in that space is effectively tuned via energetic resonance. There is "visualization" involved when the student then goes home and practices the forms by themselves. I often found myself visualizing the teacher in front of me, and me following along his movements, all leading to steady progress and palpable change in energetic flow (volume, refinement, and power).  

 

[freeform]

38 minutes ago, dwai said:

Things like spending time around the teacher's school doing "free labor" were intended to develop a spirit and sense of service, eventually leading to the lessening of selfishness. Doing menial repetitive chores like grinding grains into flour, etc were done with the purpose of developing a sense of forbearance and detachment in the student, eventually leading to entering meditative states/purifying the mind and heart. 

That’s very true. In many of the Daoist traditions it’s martial arts training that develops these qualities of mind. Though teachers have other means too.

 

40 minutes ago, dwai said:

In Kundalini-based Yoga traditions, the practitioners may visualize the chakras as lotus flowers, and combine the use of silent seed mantras to activate and perform "kriyas" on these chakras. Tantric traditions will often involve similar visualizations, and the result is a massive movement of energy.

I wanted to add that I’ve come across visualisation in a similar form for the purposes of magic/sorcery.

 

Usually a combination of mantra, mudra and visualising symbols in a very specific way. And it requires activation by a master.

 

Not my sort of thing.
 

Doesn’t lead to spiritual development beyond a certain (shallow) point (because it creates strong karmic entanglements).

 

44 minutes ago, dwai said:

I often found myself visualizing the teacher in front of me,

 

So not imagining Qi moving or imaging lights or dragons mating with tigers?

 

The only Daoist schools I’ve seen where you imagine Qi or imagine light or specific effects like that have been modern ‘reinterpretations’ - (or at most have been briefly used as training wheels).

 

Hopefully that lays visualisation to rest?

[dwai]

15 minutes ago, freeform said:

That’s very true. In many of the Daoist traditions it’s martial arts training that develops these qualities of mind. Though teachers have other means too.

There is more than one way to do things  

15 minutes ago, freeform said:

I wanted to add that I’ve come across visualisation in a similar form for the purposes of magic/sorcery.

 

Usually a combination of mantra, mudra and visualising symbols in a very specific way. And it requires activation by a master.

 

Not my sort of thing.
 

Doesn’t lead to spiritual development beyond a certain (shallow) point (because it creates strong karmic entanglements).

That won't happen if there is proper/right teachings and Self-inquiry that go along with it. It has and continues to lead many Hindu and Buddhist practitioners to enlightenment. 

15 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

 

So not imagining Qi moving or imaging lights or dragons mating with tigers?

 

The only Daoist schools I’ve seen where you imagine Qi or imagine light or specific effects like that have been modern ‘reinterpretations’ - (or at most have been briefly used as training wheels).

 

Hopefully that lays visualisation to rest?

There are other introductory practices, such as generating a qi ball (we call it Taiji ball in our system) -- it involves some imagination, but usually, that is introduced once the student has started to feel the movement of qi (which should happen fairly quickly if practiced right). In fact, I've shown complete beginners how to do it after a few lessons. 

[Maddie]

I think what I find interesting about all of this is that it seems to show that there are multiple methods of accomplishing cultivation. When I read the Pali texts they seem to suggest that only what the Buddha taught works, but maybe that's because at the time they were made they only knew of a small part of the world.