drinking water with food - bad ? why ? how bad is it ?

[waterdrop]

is drinking water with your meals  bad  ?   and why   ?    

Im asking cause i heared something about it affecting the "fire"  aspect of digestion  or something like that

if drinking water with meals have a bad affect  in what areas does it have ? (as in a an effect from the qi aspect or from a spiritual aspect or from a health aspect etc )

how bad is it   ? 

is it bad just for example until you build your ldt  ?  or always bad ?        

does drinking water with your meals have a good side  ?

what about drinking water in general  not during meal ? 


(and since i seem some people get mad i ask this questions to make clear there is a reason  -  for instance to ask  how bad is it  , its not just nitpicking  -  cause i drink a lot of water with my meals  - it would be very hard for me to stop this habit  (i have a hard time eating without any water) , so if its bad i wonder how much of a difference it makes or how much i can ignore it)

Edited June 11, 2020 by waterdrop

[Taomeow]

The idea is that you dilute your digestive juices if you drink water with your meals.  Also you tend to underchew your food and just wash it down with water.  Both will impair proper digestion and absorption of nutrients.  Cold water is the worst, in Chinese medicine it is considered to be the surest way to put out your "digestive fire" and render you unable to "cook" the food you're eating.  (We do cook our food internally, with a chemical fire of substances that would actually cause a chemical burn if spilled on the skin -- e.g. a healthy stomach secretes highly concentrated hydrochloric acid -- but also with the slow steady warmth in our internal organs of digestion.  Cooling them off with splashes of cold water is not unlike splashing cold water on your kitchen stove while it is turned on.) 

 

The LDT is not part of the digestive system.  And in any event you don't feel compelled to drink water with your meals if it's well developed.  If thirsty, you quench your thirst before starting your meal.  If the meal was drying, you might drink water sometime after you finished.  My cat does that.  He never drinks before, during, or after meals where he gets moist food.  If he had some dry food (which he only receives as a special treat, in small amounts), he'll drink some water later.

 

To my knowledge, no mammal drinks water while eating.

 

"A good side" -- not aware of it.  Perhaps if you're more dehydrated than undernourished.  And even in this case it might be better to drink enough water first, eat later.

 

About drinking water in general not during meals -- no general rule of needing this and that amount, contrary to "health" advice that has been dispensed alongside the beginning of chlorination of municipal water supply, but never before.  The need for water is individual, and differs in each individual too depending on age, climate, weather, baseline health condition, condition of particular organs, with physical exertion or with sedentary lifestyle, foods or medications taken, and so on.  Henry C. Lu, author of "Chinese Food Cures," has a good chapter on the subject somewhere in that book, and advocates "slow yin fluids" as a far superior method to rehydrate in most cases (except the very mundane where you're just naturally thirsty after sweating).  And obviously in specific conditions associated with water retention (Dampness) or kidney deficiency where the kidneys can't benefit from being forced to work extra hard drinking too much water is not a good idea.       

 

 

[waterdrop]

Thanks for the reply  -   what i wrote about the ldt wasnt clear   -

What i should have written is :  if  somehow  the cold water driking can effect the building process of the dantian ?   

i wonder if the fact im thirsty a lot  especially when i eat  means i have some health issue  that chinese medicine knows about    -  or is it just purely a bad habit 

 

[ilumairen]

2 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

Thanks for the reply  -   what i wrote about the ldt wasnt clear   -

What i should have written is :  if  somehow  the cold water driking can effect the building process of the dantian ?   

i wonder if the fact im thirsty a lot  especially when i eat  means i have some health issue  that chinese medicine knows about    -  or is it just purely a bad habit 

 

I would take Taomeow’s not so very explicit advice (she doesn’t tend to explicitly advise unless explicitly asked, but shares a wealth of information which can be applied and individually adapted as appropriate).

 

Start with maintaining hydration prior to eating, look into yin fluids, practice thoroughly chewing your food, and perhaps explore the appropriate chapter in Henry C Lu’s Chinese Food Cures.

 

I would also suggest looking at the qualities of the food you are eating, and how they may contribute to the dynamic. 

[silent thunder]

Usually do not drink within 30 minutes prior and an hour after eating.

 

Also no longer chug massive amounts of water in one go to 'water up'.

 

[waterdrop]

@Taomeow , @ilumairen

i do drink a lot  prior to eating as well  (and all through the day)      -   about chewing i think i chew pretty well  -  at least during orgnized meals ...  but maybe there is room to improvement there  ....  and about the book couldnt find the chapter online and im in the middle of another book 

 

the "slow yin fluids" do sound very promising  - i read it in the text , thought thats great than forgot  -       i tried to google search about it and didnt find much    -     are slow yin fluids   the same as  "yin tonics"  (one search result i got)  ?  

[freeform]

16 hours ago, waterdrop said:

if  somehow  the cold water driking can effect the building process of the dantian ?

ice cold water (or anything ice cold that you put in your mouth) will indeed impact negatively on DT development.

[waterdrop]

@freeform 

does it matter in the  lower dan tian aspect  ,  if i drink ice cold water long after any practice i do ......  lets say a few hours after  before i go to sleep  i eat an ice cream  - would it have a negative effect  LDT wise ?

[freeform]

14 hours ago, waterdrop said:

@freeform 

does it matter in the  lower dan tian aspect  ,  if i drink ice cold water long after any practice i do ......  lets say a few hours after  before i go to sleep  i eat an ice cream  - would it have a negative effect  LDT wise ?

 

Yes it does have a negative effect outside of practice time.

 

I haven't drunk iced water for many years now

 

[waterdrop]

@Taomeow  

just to make sure you see this  -    i would like to know what are the  "slow yin fluids"    -  even in general  so i can google search about them      (cause by myself im not sure if the results i get are the same thing you meant)


(  im re-tagging  in case you missed the first one  , if you dont reply than i take it you seen this just dont want to reply )

[Cleansox]

2 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

@Taomeow   i would like to know what are the  "slow yin fluids"    -  even in general  so i can google search about them    

Google jin ye. 

[waterdrop]

4 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Google jin ye. 

 

When i googled before this was one of the results i got : 

 

Quote

 

Jin

These fluids are clear, light, thin and watery, and circulate in the exterior of the body (skin and muscles) with the Wei Qi. Under control of the Lungs, which disseminate them to the skin and of the Upper Burner, which controls their transformation and movement.

Functions:

• To moisten and partly to nourish skin and muscles. (exuded as sweat, but also manifests as tears, saliva.
• To form a compound of Blood (thin out the Blood and prevent its stasis)

Ye

These are the more turbid, dense, and heavy fluids, and they circulate in the interior of the body with the Ying (Nutritive) Qi. Move relatively slowly.

Under control of (transformed by) Spleen and Kidneys, moved and excreted by Middle and Lower Burner.

Functions:

• To moisten the joints, spine, brain, bone marrow.
• Lubricate the "orifices of the sense organs" i.e. eyes, ears, nose and mouth

 

https://www.sacredlotus.com/go/foundations-chinese-medicine/get/jin-ye-body-fluids-vital-substance

but how that sits with it as a method ?
 

Quote

and advocates "slow yin fluids" as a far superior method to rehydrate in most cases

 

 

[Cleansox]

Didn't read the context, my bad. 

[Rara]

On 11/06/2020 at 6:18 PM, Taomeow said:

The idea is that you dilute your digestive juices if you drink water with your meals.  Also you tend to underchew your food and just wash it down with water.  Both will impair proper digestion and absorption of nutrients.  Cold water is the worst, in Chinese medicine it is considered to be the surest way to put out your "digestive fire" and render you unable to "cook" the food you're eating.  (We do cook our food internally, with a chemical fire of substances that would actually cause a chemical burn if spilled on the skin -- e.g. a healthy stomach secretes highly concentrated hydrochloric acid -- but also with the slow steady warmth in our internal organs of digestion.  Cooling them off with splashes of cold water is not unlike splashing cold water on your kitchen stove while it is turned on.) 

 

The LDT is not part of the digestive system.  And in any event you don't feel compelled to drink water with your meals if it's well developed.  If thirsty, you quench your thirst before starting your meal.  If the meal was drying, you might drink water sometime after you finished.  My cat does that.  He never drinks before, during, or after meals where he gets moist food.  If he had some dry food (which he only receives as a special treat, in small amounts), he'll drink some water later.

 

To my knowledge, no mammal drinks water while eating.

 

"A good side" -- not aware of it.  Perhaps if you're more dehydrated than undernourished.  And even in this case it might be better to drink enough water first, eat later.

 

About drinking water in general not during meals -- no general rule of needing this and that amount, contrary to "health" advice that has been dispensed alongside the beginning of chlorination of municipal water supply, but never before.  The need for water is individual, and differs in each individual too depending on age, climate, weather, baseline health condition, condition of particular organs, with physical exertion or with sedentary lifestyle, foods or medications taken, and so on.  Henry C. Lu, author of "Chinese Food Cures," has a good chapter on the subject somewhere in that book, and advocates "slow yin fluids" as a far superior method to rehydrate in most cases (except the very mundane where you're just naturally thirsty after sweating).  And obviously in specific conditions associated with water retention (Dampness) or kidney deficiency where the kidneys can't benefit from being forced to work extra hard drinking too much water is not a good idea.       

 

 

 

How does it work with tea in your experience? I have always understood pu'er to be fine for prior and during meals. Green I will always drink after...

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, waterdrop said:

@Taomeow  

just to make sure you see this  -    i would like to know what are the  "slow yin fluids"    -  even in general  so i can google search about them      (cause by myself im not sure if the results i get are the same thing you meant)


(  im re-tagging  in case you missed the first one  , if you dont reply than i take it you seen this just dont want to reply )

 

Apologies for not responding the first time, I meant to and forgot.

 

The term, in this context, refers to water-based nourishing fluids that are thicker and denser than water, jelly-like, viscous, able to congeal to varying extents at various (especially lower) temperatures -- these are "slow yin" and the body can hold on to them better, having enough time to extract both the moisture and the nutrients for various organs rather than let them "run like water" through the system, in and out.  That's why they counteract many syndromes of deficient fluids the body can be prone to under various conditions much better than just water.  The cue is the texture, many substances have properties of slow yin and all traditional cultures are very partial to those. 

 

The most common would be bone broths, congee, "grass tea" (made with herbs that make it somewhat, or considerably, gelatinous), in Japan it might be konnyaku jelly, the South American version would be various drinks made with chia seeds, in my childhood in Russia it was "kissel," a slow-flowing semi-clear drink of some kind of berries (the most popular was cranberry) thickened with potato starch, in herbal medicine there's many decoctions that are used to make thick-ish decoctions that help with many conditions associated with inflammation, especially "Toxic Fire" or "Dryness" conditions -- Job's tears, linden flowers, parsley (if you make a strong decoctions you will see that it congeals somewhat in the fridge) and a whole bunch of others.  There's also foods that are thought of as capable of producing this kind of fluids in the body -- collagen in its various manifestations (primarily bone broths, thick fish soups, assorted jellies), seaweed, rice (especially glutinous rice), some mushrooms, okra, some kinds of yam (notably nagaimo, a Japanese vegetable available at Asian stores), and so on.  Salmon roe and, for those who can afford it, caviar  (I wish...  its medicinal slow yin properties are endless.)    

 

For practical purposes, you can choose whichever of these you like, do your best to make them staple foods/drinks in your diet and try to consume them as often as you can.  (If you go for chia seed drinks, you need to make sure you don't skimp on water or else they would absorb it from the body and do the opposite of what you're after).  They don't "work" immediately, they are "slow" -- slow but sure.  I would avoid sugary jellies (except when a bit of sugar is indicated medicinally, e.g. with a cough, but the amount ought to be small), the rest is up to your preferences.  My first choice is bone broth or oxtail soup, my second choice is congee (when I'm not avoiding carbs, which I sometimes do), homemade jellies with either gelatin or agar-agar, and occasional herbal drinks of this nature. 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Rara said:

 

How does it work with tea in your experience? I have always understood pu'er to be fine for prior and during meals. Green I will always drink after...

 

Tea is "drying" (and, unless wrongfully commercialized as iced tea, hot), so it is better suited for the purpose than water if one wants to drink it before meals.  I never feel compelled to drink it before meals though.  I think the single exception for tea that can go well with a meal is when the meal is a sweet dessert -- which is a very rare thing for me to eat, sometimes I go for months without any cake .  But if I am to have some cake, it's going to be eaten with tea, no doubt about it.  I think this is somewhat traditional too in some tea-drinking countries (though not in China). Otherwise, I drink tea away from meals.  But I'm not a great expert on teas.  I drink coffee long before I eat anything first thing in the morning -- with an obligatory glass of water (coffee is drying, so is tea but to a lesser extent).      

[waterdrop]

On 6/23/2020 at 2:06 PM, Taomeow said:

Apologies for not responding the first time, I meant to and forgot.

 ohh and i felt im being too pushy lol  

That was a great read  -  I dont eat meat (but im down to hear about it  and its effects and learn from that)  so im trying to figure out what i can have  as well as what i can find in my supermarket     

* For the record i have now enough to go by on my own  -   now its just fishing for extra info   so you dont have to answer all  - and in bold i put the main questions :

 

On 6/23/2020 at 2:06 PM, Taomeow said:

They don't "work" immediately, they are "slow"

 
I will try this  -     you mean they dont work immediately  as in they take a few hours to feel an effect   or that i need to consume them for a few days  or    a few weeks before i can see their effect ?

 so everything that causes liquid to be gelatinous are good ?  the things have an effect only if i consume them in thier gelatinous forum ?     i mean for example the parsley  - if i eat its leaves just like that in leaf form do they have the same effect ?       or for example  do potatoes  have the effect ?   (maybe the potato starch powder is more dense  - but it means the potato will also have a small effect?)      - or  potato startch but to add it to many dishes i make like pad thai  , will that have a good effect ?  -    i have now a few things in house  :  pesto paste  (From parsley from the garden - parsley little salt little garlic and lots of oil )  is it good?    i got industrial  jeli   with sugar some and some with sugar substitute  -   both of them not good?     jams are gelatinous  but if it has sugar than its not good ?   what about dairy products like yogurt ?  or puddings ?

cornstarch jelly?
Mămăligă   ?
tapioca ?

this things can be consumed with the meals ?  like i do water ?     like i will sit with the meal and a  big bowl of " kissel "   and just "drink"  it with a spoon between bites like i do with water ?

What about fruits and vegetables - some of them can be seen as  gelatinous   ... like watermelon ,  some peaches (the yellow inside ones)  , cucumber etc ?

i will go shopping soon   -  will look for stuff  so  im trying to figure out this thing better so if i ran into something in the store that is good  i will take it   thats why the many questions  - so i get the basic rules i go bye

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by waterdrop

[Song of the Dao]

On 6/11/2020 at 1:18 PM, Taomeow said:

To my knowledge, no mammal drinks water while eating.

 

Humans do. So do whales. My dog often drinks after eating his food.

 

And look at this guy go!

 

 

 

 

[Song of the Dao]

On 6/11/2020 at 12:45 PM, waterdrop said:

is drinking water with your meals  bad  ?   and why   ?    

Im asking cause i heared something about it affecting the "fire"  aspect of digestion  or something like that

if drinking water with meals have a bad affect  in what areas does it have ? (as in a an effect from the qi aspect or from a spiritual aspect or from a health aspect etc )

how bad is it   ? 

is it bad just for example until you build your ldt  ?  or always bad ?        

does drinking water with your meals have a good side  ?

what about drinking water in general  not during meal ? 


(and since i seem some people get mad i ask this questions to make clear there is a reason  -  for instance to ask  how bad is it  , its not just nitpicking  -  cause i drink a lot of water with my meals  - it would be very hard for me to stop this habit  (i have a hard time eating without any water) , so if its bad i wonder how much of a difference it makes or how much i can ignore it)

 

Maybe you have too much fire aspect in your digestion! Maybe it is normal!

 

Your body is the most intelligent thing, stop getting in its' way!

 

If you drink too much your body will tell you to die, that is how smart it is!

[Taomeow]

3 hours ago, Song of the Dao said:

 

Humans do. So do whales. My dog often drinks after eating his food.

 

And look at this guy go!

 

 

 

"With food" was the subject matter of the original inquiry and of my response, not "before" eating or "after" eating (which I said was OK).  Your dog does everything right.  Drinking after eating was not being disputed.  

 

Most whales, with few exceptions, not only don't drink with meals but they don't drink before or after meals either -- they don't drink at all.  Pinnipeds and cetaceans get their water supplied by metabolism of prey proteins (metabolic water) and the oxidation of fat (drinking water). 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Taomeow

[thelerner]

In the ashram (Sivananda) I visited drinking with food was frowned on.  Though I noticed they did have herbal teas and soups at  times.  We ate twice a day, vegetarian ofcourse, the food was superb. 

[liminal_luke]

@Taomeow @freeform

 

An old Taoist teacher of mine used to recommend a glass of plain hot water first thing in the morning.  Not tea, not coffee, no lemon...just water.  Is this a standard Taoist thing? Recommended?

[Song of the Dao]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

"With food" was the subject matter of the original inquiry and of my response, not "before" eating or "after" eating (which I said was OK).  Your dog does everything right.  Drinking after eating was not being disputed.  

 

Most whales, with few exceptions, not only don't drink with meals but they don't drink before or after meals either -- they don't drink at all.  Pinnipeds and cetaceans get their water supplied by metabolism of prey proteins (metabolic water) and the oxidation of fat (drinking water). 

 

Dog. Eating, drinking, then eating again. Someone save him! But what do I know, I am a dummy like this dog!
 

Editing to add my stupid whale friends:

https://2seewhales.com/blog/whales-drink-water/
"While we don’t know the answer to this question for most marine mammals, we do know that whales, in fact, drink water directly from the ocean."

Edited June 24, 2020 by Song of the Dao
Adding the whale bit

[Song of the Dao]

2 hours ago, thelerner said:

In the ashram (Sivananda) I visited drinking with food was frowned on.  Though I noticed they did have herbal teas and soups at  times.  We ate twice a day, vegetarian ofcourse, the food was superb. 

 

Where is the spontaneity? And no fish?! No oysters?! No venison!? I am afraid us Saami would not live long there.

[Song of the Dao]

dumb monkey! Drinking and eating!