spirituality thumping: to thump or not to thump

[de_paradise]

I have a Mahayana bone in my body that wants to get people onboard the spiritual path. I keep thinking, damn, I wish someone had told me earlier about the pysiological refinements that accompany the path, I would have been practising meditation much much earlier. But like pretty much everyone, I was just packing on information at a superficial level that leads nowhere. It was Bodri's attitude that really resonated with me where an Indian yogi for example could never put things in a way where there wasnt so much mumbo jumbo. Awakening the ethereal body brings all sorts of benefits, so it shouldnt be a tough sell.

 

Yet explaining to even a friend some rudimentary things ( not even mentioning my personal experience which is totally sci-fi) I can see them typically trance out, going into what hypnotists call a transderivational search where the brain seeks to understand information by relation and context; then their brain generally comes up with something that tells me they didnt understand what I was saying. like they make a comment on organized religion or give me some kind of advice as if I were asking for advice.

 

I read the founder of Reiki went around healing the poor and lower classes in hopes of bringing them to understand the reality of spirituality; but he got frustrated when after healing them, for example a theif, the theif went back to his old job.

 

The Taoists are not a thumping tradition as far as I know, mainly secretive and stingy, but honestly in this new age of information, Im of Max Christensen's attitude that theres no point in holding back secrets. Even siddhis, perhaps in the old days it was better to hide them, but nowadays even if you show them that their model of reality is limited and should be uprgaded by using means of a siddhi as proof, cognitive dissonace will ultimately usually shove that proof out of their minds because of the tenacity of the ego's view. So a siddhi is possibly one of the only means of getting people to challenge reality enough to give spirituality a try, and hell in this age of science, not even that effective.

 

 

Anyway, I'm interested in hearing what the people here have to say on this topic since most of you have been pratising way longer than me.

Edited March 18, 2008 by de_paradise

[林愛偉]

Hey There

 

Present things for the method only. When speaking the Dharma one should be able to see the conditions

of the beings they are teaching. Thus, expounding the Dharma would be without marks.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[松永道]

In the far flung past, daoists hold that sages taught powers, magic, and all that right from the start. Yet as time went on, people's mind's became dirtier. They misused these teachings and wrought great calamity. Now this is a story. Maybe true, maybe not, in either case the moral is: siddhis and enlightenment are not the same thing.

 

Should you temp people with powers, provable, undeniable powers, you're not doing anything for the Dharma. On the contrary, powers seem to be the most perilous things on the road to enlightenment, so attractive, power is pure ego candy. Power is a test of attachment. That's why it shows up on the road uninvited.

 

Searching for power is a different path altogether. Daoism has reproducible, effective systems for developing these abilities. It's a matter of concentration, intelligence, and endurance. And these are good human qualities. However, they say nothing for compassion.

 

If you want to do good by the Dharma, let health and happiness be your superpowers. If you just want to prove reality is more than we know it to be, then perform. And I do believe that someone can start for the wrong reasons and find the right ones later. It's just that Dharma and results oriented thinking mix about as well as oil and water. But, I suppose, that too is another test along the Way.

[gendao]

Yea, I've noticed that the vast majority of laymen I talk to these things about immediately tune out once I cross that metaphyiscal line. I even offer free healing sessions and many won't accept because they feel it's too weird.

 

It's like those who are interested immediately turn on, and those who aren't immediately turn off like light switches. So, can you turn on someone who is turned off? And should you even bother trying? I dunno?

[.broken.]

The manner of communication is key.

 

Ever had to teach a struggling colleague something they couldn't grasp, yet to you it was so simple? It's easy to get the penny to drop if you relate what you are trying to teach to their own experience.

 

In the words of the clever pothead in Road Trip: "I could teach Japanese to a monkey; all I need is something to relate it to."

 

Also, if you know the person well, you will see that they turn off when you use particular words. 'Energy', 'religion' and 'spirituality' are all common off switches to many people. Common off switches are regularly misconstrewed by the listener/interpreter rather than being interpreted in the manner in which they had been intended.

 

You can give people deeper understanding of their existence if you do not relate it to one of their off switches.

 

An example may be to teach somebody the art of empathy and compassion, but to avoid mentioned what you are relating is anything to do with Buddhism/Christian teaching.

 

Ultimately, I would suggest that if you want to "thump" this to people, you are going to have to explain it in a way that keeps them engaged and avoids touching upon the person's preconceived views.

 

One last thought for you - people are not always willing to change their ways, wisdom plays a great deal in knowing when to guide them and when to just give them a sympathetic ear.

Edited March 18, 2008 by .broken.

[Pietro]

I have a Mahayana bone in my body that wants to get people onboard the spiritual path. I keep thinking, damn, I wish someone had told me earlier about the pysiological refinements that accompany the path, I would have been practising meditation much much earlier. But like pretty much everyone, I was just packing on information at a superficial level that leads nowhere. It was Bodri's attitude that really resonated with me where an Indian yogi for example could never put things in a way where there wasnt so much mumbo jumbo. Awakening the ethereal body brings all sorts of benefits, so it shouldnt be a tough sell.

 

Yet explaining to even a friend some rudimentary things ( not even mentioning my personal experience which is totally sci-fi) I can see them typically trance out, going into what hypnotists call a transderivational search where the brain seeks to understand information by relation and context; then their brain generally comes up with something that tells me they didnt understand what I was saying. like they make a comment on organized religion or give me some kind of advice as if I were asking for advice.

 

I read the founder of Reiki went around healing the poor and lower classes in hopes of bringing them to understand the reality of spirituality; but he got frustrated when after healing them, for example a theif, the theif went back to his old job.

 

The Taoists are not a thumping tradition as far as I know, mainly secretive and stingy, but honestly in this new age of information, Im of Max Christensen's attitude that theres no point in holding back secrets. Even siddhis, perhaps in the old days it was better to hide them, but nowadays even if you show them that their model of reality is limited and should be uprgaded by using means of a siddhi as proof, cognitive dissonace will ultimately usually shove that proof out of their minds because of the tenacity of the ego's view. So a siddhi is possibly one of the only means of getting people to challenge reality enough to give spirituality a try, and hell in this age of science, not even that effective.

Anyway, I'm interested in hearing what the people here have to say on this topic since most of you have been pratising way longer than me.

 

Great question.

when I started I was the classic teenager fanatic. And I would try in all way to convert/enlighten all my friends and people from my family. It generally never worked. A part from a few case of people who were really just waiting for an excuse to start their spiritual journey (i.e. pretending for the sake of the argument that they weren't before ;o) )

Now my mother is doing buddhist meditation, and my father is interested in qi gung.

How did I do this? Wrong question.

How did it happen? Good question.

I haven't done it. What happened was that eventually I got tired of trying to speak to people who just did not care and that would push back every time I pushed them. So I just kept on practicing, and this was all. I would not make secrets of what I was doing. But I would not try to convince them.

Eventually when you stop trying too hard they will come to you by themselves.

 

It is a bit like feeding a mouse. You can't do it. Every time you move it will run away. But if you sit still, with food in your palm it might calm and eat it by himself. After all the hunger for spirituality is intrinsec in every human being. And if it is not already there, there is really nothing that you can do.

 

Pietro

[林愛偉]

All of the advice here is wonderful!

 

A golden guideline to expounding wholesome education.

 

What a blessing!!!

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[minkus]

Great question.

when I started I was the classic teenager fanatic. And I would try in all way to convert/enlighten all my friends and people from my family. It generally never worked. A part from a few case of people who were really just waiting for an excuse to start their spiritual journey (i.e. pretending for the sake of the argument that they weren't before ;o) )

Now my mother is doing buddhist meditation, and my father is interested in qi gung.

How did I do this? Wrong question.

How did it happen? Good question.

I haven't done it. What happened was that eventually I got tired of trying to speak to people who just did not care and that would push back every time I pushed them. So I just kept on practicing, and this was all. I would not make secrets of what I was doing. But I would not try to convince them.

Eventually when you stop trying too hard they will come to you by themselves.

 

It is a bit like feeding a mouse. You can't do it. Every time you move it will run away. But if you sit still, with food in your palm it might calm and eat it by himself. After all the hunger for spirituality is intrinsec in every human being. And if it is not already there, there is really nothing that you can do.

 

Pietro

 

Very well put ! Like feeding a mouse yeh

[abramelin]

[doc benway]

This is a most important and difficult question to consider, IMO.

Here I go pontificating again - sorry, I haven't yet figured out how to say what I want to say about these things succinctly.

 

I'm beginning to think that it may not always be a service or even a compassionate act to assist, encourage, or cause someone to step onto the spiritual path. It is a demanding, frustrating, and potentially hazardous path. Clearly there can be benefits along the way - the physiologic benefits of a variety of practices, the calming effects, the psychological and emotional stability that may develop. HOWEVER - what is the spiritual path really? What is it's purpose? Where does it take us? Is it worthwhile? These are questions that I've been wrestling with for a while now. They do not have straightforward answers. I think it is important for each of us to answer those questions for ourselves.

 

The spiritual path starts with a feeling that what presently is, is not enough. The existing feeling or understanding, or emotional state, or level of interaction with the environment, or relatioship with others - the relationship with God or whatever you want to call it. Something is missing.

 

But isn't this what the mind always does? THis is what the mind is expert at, convincing itself that there is something more, something else, or better. THere is some state or experience that will result in a more profound understanding or relationship, a better life. Here and now and what is, are not good enough. This thought is critical in helping us to find food, clothing, safety from the elements, a mate, but when it ventures into the realm of psychology, emotion, and 'gulp' spirituality, how well does it function?

 

So isn't what is preventing us from being satisfied and enchanted with what is here and now, simply the search itself, the desire for more or better or deeper? The desire for more pleasure or less pain? The boredom with what is all around us because we think we know it already and understand it? The yearning for an answer to the difficult questions? The thought that there is something better is intimately related to the sense of a self that is separate from and unsatisfied with what is. That self is what defines other. That state of searching is what prevents simply being at peace with what is. And what is an 'enlightened' person other than someone who appears to be at peace with what is?

 

The search is necessarily endless because one can never be anything other than what one already is, here and now. No matter where we are, there is always the thought - there is somewhere else where all is better. The search itself is the very illusion that the search intends to transcend. It promises something different in the future, something other than what is. But it is always now and here. Tomorrow never comes. It is always today.

 

So I am finding it increasingly difficult to want to introduce anyone to the spiritual path because, in many ways, my view of the path is that which I must be rid of. While on the path, I am defining a state of inadequecy or disatisfaction with my existence. Without the path, I'm already here. I'm here and it's now and I'm alive and I'm aware and that in and of itself is beautiful and miraculous. Everying else is simply thought and stories. And the stories are fine and good but they're still just stories. Reality is what is, here and now.

 

Now despite saying all that, I'm still on this forum and I still read spiritual books and so forth - so what the fuck is wrong with me? I have no clue! I guess I'm not here yet...

 

Many 'gurus', including some I admire the most, are quick to point out that there is no path to the truth, there is no value in the guru, there is no method or practice that can yield enlightenment. Yet everyone one of them practiced and searched for years before realizing that fact. So there is a paradox - on the one hand, there is no path but, on the other hand, they all spent a lot of time and effort on that path before realizing it was illusory.

 

So do you really want to introduce someone you love to this path?

It's worth some real consideration, IMO.

[satyagraha]

 

 

Many 'gurus', including some I admire the most, are quick to point out that there is no path to the truth, there is no value in the guru, there is no method or practice that can yield enlightenment. Yet everyone one of them practiced and searched for years before realizing that fact. So there is a paradox - on the one hand, there is no path but, on the other hand, they all spent a lot of time and effort on that path before realizing it was illusory.

 

I've been at this junction, just practice, don't think, it fades. To be in the ego is to be in the ego, correct, your are in it either way (until you reach 'that point'). To have a spark of interest in 'reality' (what we experience is far from 'reality'), is the only thing that really matters. You sound like your confusing yourself with motives. We are all unsatisfied with what is, you are whether you are practicing or not, so why not practice and nurture the part of you that wants freedom? just a thought. It doesn't do well to analyze paradoxes, man i can relate to that! but it really does fade, and you realize your all the better for it, with a deeper understanding of serenity.

 

But I as well have wanted to shout: WAKE UP!!!! to everyone walking aimlessly to their next hair appoinment, and have come to the same conclusion as you guys. It happens when it is meant to happen, we are on this path for a reason, they are on that path for a reason, we are all learning. Live and let live.

 

recruit using Attraction rather than Promotion.

 

clinton.

[Smile]

Nice posts...

I just say i practice meditation every day for many hours and normally those who are interested ask how/why. If you are relaxed, smiling, and simply sharing the info without a personal interest to convert anyone, they will feel that and will be more willing to try. Even Christians would do that if you give them a method based on one-pointed concentration/mindfullness related to their faith.

[Ian]

I'm beginning to think that it may not always be a service or even a compassionate act to assist, encourage, or cause someone to step onto the spiritual path. It is a demanding, frustrating, and potentially hazardous path.

 

Great post, as are many above.

 

My teacher, whom I obviously consider extraordinarily wise and gifted, has been quoted to say that if a spiritual teacher manages to do more good than harm, then he or she is doing very well indeed.

 

A good general rule, is to answer people who ask, but never to proselytise. I break this rule more or less daily.

[三江源]

What effect does it have on us, that the vast majority of people we meet and know have zero interest or understanding of what is so central to us. They may like knowing someone who is 'into weird stuff', thay may appreciate your ambience and your wisdom in general.

 

But not really want to walk alongside you or go where you go.

 

 

I am speaking of myself here, and wondering what effect it has on me. I dont know if it compounds a tendency already present in me, to be isolated and apart.

 

And at the same time to feel a kinship, with the people who share what I share, but who arent, in the main, physically close to me.

 

One has to be able to tolerate the position of being the one somewhat outside the norm. Partly I wonder if one of the benefits of this way , is that it suits people who are more comfortable outside of the norm.

 

 

Yep, I also tried to share a lot and Spread the News, also tried to feed mice. Didnt find any hungry ones. They nibbled and moved on.

[satyagraha]

This post has helped me realize, how lucky we all are, to be able to share our experience strength and hope with one another. This is really a beautifull thing. We are all on the path, the only path that really matters, together!

[松永道]

Here here to our cyber sangha!

 

One has to be able to tolerate the position of being the one somewhat outside the norm. Partly I wonder if one of the benefits of this way , is that it suits people who are more comfortable outside of the norm.

 

Good call. Shamans, wisemen, and mystics (not to mention the more mundane outcasts) always lived on the edge of society. One foot in this world, one foot in the other. It is indeed an odd life. Who chooses to be a drifter? A vagabond? A bum? Wayfarers do. It's a hard choice to be socially homeless.

 

People don't like change. I don't know if this resistance is inborn or installed, but most folks want to settle, get secure and get comfortable. Cultivation changes one's personality. And that's downright weird to people who are doing everything they can to be consistent. When I first started, it really put a strain on all my social relationships, not because I was worse, just because I was different than before. And even though my attitude was better, I was healthier, more compassionate, more giving, friends nevertheless said, "people don't just change!" Who was I do defy the order of things?

 

I thumped qigong and meditation at first like a mad man. It's done this for me, it's done that. You gotta try it! Eh. From the above posts I can see it's only natural that thumping doesn't work. Then I stopped protheletizing and low and behold, friends started asking me how. And now my mother practices qigong, her cancer has gone into remission and her health continues an upward climb. It's only a matter of time 'till she cures it completely without surgery. My sister dove headlong into yoga and Buddhism. I have many friends who have attended vipassana meditation retreats and continue to meditate. And the love of my life meditates, does qigong, and will begin learning taiji this summer. All this through NON-ACTION!

 

Wayfaring maybe isn't the right word anymore, now with so many loved ones traveling too, it's starting to feel more like a pilgrimage!

 

What a lucky thing we have here, Tao Bums, this merry caravanserai to share stories.

[Stigweard]

Cheers for the topic and the posts.

 

In my experience there are many layers and levels to the act of speaking about spiritual truths. The first obvious layers are motivated by self-importance:

 

-- we want other people to agree with us to make us feel justified in life

-- we are trying to establish our superiority

-- we are wanting people to love us or like us

-- we are wanting people to join us or believe as we believe

-- etc, etc

 

Most of these will inevitably arise because we have a fixation to our world being a 'certain way.' For example I used to be very fervent about trying to change the way people thought because I believed the world had to change or else we would encounter disaster. But I quickly realised that not only was this motivation an incredible waste of energy but it was also a symptom of me self-importantly being attached to the world and its people being a certain way ... my way. I was making a preference and a seperation between the way things were and how I believed they should be.

 

It takes impeccable discernment and self examination to ensure that we are not buying into these above levels.

 

Then, as we get closer to our core, we have motivations of natural virtue in that we sincerely want to help uplift the people and the world around us. The beauty here is that if we are naturally inspired to give service without attachment to the outcomes we can respond appropriately to the need.

 

The other level of sharing our knowledge is because, as we do here, dialogue is a wonderful way of learning. Through our minds entering the dance of conversation we are stretched by encountering other points of view. Previously held views are challenged and tested for their authenticity and wholesomeness ... quite often I learn the most from the people who don't agree with what I say ... even if they are just giving me an opportunity to reflect upon my own thoughts.

 

If we are able to do push hands with our words, harmoniously alternating between extending our thoughts and recieving other's, then we are all enriched.

 

So to thump or not to thump? The Tao in every moment will reveal what is appropriate.

[freeform]

[Ian]

[三江源]

Treating every person as the one, true god.

 

 

Well. I know that there are times when my energy is in all the nice places, that I see the perfection in everyone.

 

 

But not one person as one true god. just everyone as perfect.

 

a tiny wee point, a semantical one, I dont care for the emphatic nature of 'the one, true god'. too exclusive.

 

 

and whilst it is a useful exercise to do as you suggest, freeform, it also - ironically - objectifies the Other as something to further your spiritual discipline with, something to look at through a different lense than your unconscious usual one.

 

No escape.

Edited March 20, 2008 by cat

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[satyagraha]

Treating every person as the one, true god.

Well. I know that there are times when my energy is in all the nice places, that I see the perfection in everyone.

But not one person as one true god. just everyone as perfect.

 

a tiny wee point, a semantical one, I dont care for the emphatic nature of 'the one, true god'. too exclusive.

and whilst it is a useful exercise to do as you suggest, freeform, it also - ironically - objectifies the Other as something to further your spiritual discipline with, something to look at through a different lense than your unconscious usual one.

 

No escape.

good points, anything said or done while still in ego, no matter if one 'thinks' it challenges ego is still ego, I went through a whole month playing the conversation that we are having right now in my head trying to figure out how to intellectually beat the ego (or what was ego and what wasn't and how to act against it). There is no way, no action, the only way to do it is to stop making ego your enemy (by even saying something is "egoic' you are making a value judgment of the ego), and live with it, just being happy (the ego does have a purpose). As you keep practicing you realize that it does not matter (this whole, what is ego? what is good?) then you find that 'child like mind' and you play with the world and practice. It all gets simplified and a lot easier, life becomes fun and like a game. To be in thought PERIOD is to be in illusion, so its really not worth dissecting all this mind-numbing garbage, just practice and have fun! we all will get where we need to get.

[三江源]

Freeform, yes. I havent read your link yet, but Iwill, cos I like all that stuff. So thankyou for it. I just want to give you my first response before it dissipates, which is actually about the stance we take in relation to our ego. Yes,we can say that intrinsically our egoic stance is in its very nature 'god like' to us, since it dictates to us so much of the time. Or all of the time, perhaps.

 

AND, there is a difference here between the male psyche and the female, in that a women is conditioned to give her power away. It is conditioned as 'feminine' to have a weak egoic stance and to defer to the Patriarch as the One True God. The phrase 'one true god' is of itself a logos oriented phrase, a yang phrase.

 

And so it might be that in what way we play with the intrinsic metaprograms, cannot be an across the board prescription.

 

Ironically it is as children that we have the MOST god like view of ourselves. Primary narcissism, before a solid concept of others exists, we dont actually assume 'one-ness' with the other. We assume they are objects for us to do with as we wish, or else we cry. and screeam. and go red in the face!

 

 

But yes I take your point utterly about cultivating fluidity, and (to speak dualistically) avoiding rigidity.

 

I agree with satyaghara that playfulness is a terrific way to stay fluid. The best.

[doc benway]

 

 

My advice here (and I realise the presuppositions and games involved in giving advice! ) is to treat each and every person you meet as the One, True God... We all know how to do this - we've all had parents as children.

 

It's even more important to treat the people that your ego looks down on, gets angry or disgusted with as Gods, as these are our biggest opportunities to grow out of our ego and into our true selves. Treat Procurator as a God, treat the person who cut in front of you in the queue as a God, treat your mugger as your one and only saviour - because if you do, s/he may well be...

This is one of the most fundamental lessons conveyed in nearly every major religious tradition - Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Daoism, Hindu,... Unconditional love

Each and every one of us is God, Dao, Buddha, (call it what you will) what else can we possibly be?

What is unconditional love if not a recognition of that fact - genuinely feeling (and behaving) as if each and every person and thing is not separate from yourself?

In Daoism, it is a bit more subtle, but if you get down to it, how does it differ from wu wei?

[gendao]

David Wilcock (see

) claims that we shouldn't necessarily proselytize because that's infringing on others' free will. Don't offer yourself per se, but rather if they ask for it. Edited March 21, 2008 by vortex