Unwinding Desire

[Daniel]

Hello Friends,

 

I'm aware there was a situation here not too long ago involving Desire.  Desire corrupted. 

 

I have seen a similar thing in another forum, but due to excellent moderation it has not gotten out of hand.  The situation appears to be contained.  Disclaimer:  I'm not an expert.  This is all new to me.  It may be something different entirely...

 

I do not know very much about Daoism.  However, what I've read suggests to me that attachments are the #1 obstacle towards progress regardless of the individual goals.  Further, Desire, imho, is the strongest of these attachments.  Desire can be corrupted, of course.  And if it is corrupted at a high level, that is, to me, a crime of the highest order.  I think Unwinding Desire is potentially the most important skill for anyone who is cultivating at high levels.  Not only because it's healthy, but also because:  without it an individual is somewhat exposed ( forgive me ).

 

In light of this, my question is:

 

Does your lineage, practice, religion, or tradition teach about Desire specifically?  Is it an attachment?  Or does it, maybe, encourage Desire as a source of power and vitality, or ...  is it all just wu-wei? 

 

Many blessings to all who read and reply,

 

Daniel

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RiverSnake]

A good metric for what is useful.....does it tangle you up or set you free? Look at the root "intent" of every action....as if it is a seed your planting in your soul. 

[Daniel]

Thank you, RiverSnake.

[Daniel]

My Friends,

 

I've learned what I needed to learn here.  Please note:  I'm sorry for posting this here.  It was wrong of me to leave my corner of the world and ( forgive me ) interfere.

 

I was wrong.  I should know better.

 

My intentions were good based on the posts I've read here.  But my bravado was wrong.  I know nothing.

 

I will now return to my corner of existence, to be with my own.  If I may have permission to return here, occasionally, to read posts and comment with humility, I would appreciate it.

 

Sincerely,

 

Daniel

 

Edit to add: If I may also have permission to occasionally ask respectful questions, I would appreciate it as well.

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Daniel

[idiot_stimpy]

On 6/28/2020 at 10:21 PM, Daniel said:

My Friends,

 

I've learned what I needed to learn here.  Please note:  I'm sorry for posting this here.  It was wrong of me to leave my corner of the world and ( forgive me ) interfere.

 

I was wrong.  I should know better.

 

My intentions were good based on the posts I've read here.  But my bravado was wrong.  I know nothing.

 

I will now return to my corner of existence, to be with my own.  If I may have permission to return here, occasionally, to read posts and comment with humility, I would appreciate it.

 

Sincerely,

 

Daniel

 

Edit to add: If I may also have permission to occasionally ask respectful questions, I would appreciate it as well.

 

 

Dear Daniel,

 

Please do not apologize. Although I know nothing also, you're very welcome here. 

 

I understand your original question, and it is a good one, however I cannot answer it as I do not belong to a Daoist lineage. 

 

However attachment is clearly stated in Buddhisms 4 Noble Truths, being in the second noble truth - 

 

Quote

In the second noble Truth, the Buddha tells us that the root of all suffering is attachment, and said that the fundamental cause of suffering is “the attachment to the desire to have (craving), the attachment to the desire not to have (aversion) and the attachment to ignorant views“.

It’s important to pinpoint that desire is not the problem here, craving or attachments is.

https://www.zenlightenment.net/the-four-noble-truths/

 

 

Its interesting that a distinction is made between desire and attachment.

 

My question to you is, what about a desire for freedom through spiritual practices? Without a desire to free ourselves from bondage, how can we start the journey to be free?

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

My question to you is, what about a desire for freedom through spiritual practices? Without a desire to free ourselves from bondage, how can we start the journey to be free?

Choice.

 

Choosing to accept bondage is a version of freedom. 

 

Keeping perspective is the key.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Daniel

[Daniel]

On 7/2/2020 at 4:54 AM, idiot_stimpy said:

My question to you is, what about a desire for freedom through spiritual practices? Without a desire to free ourselves from bondage, how can we start the journey to be free?

exactly.

 

I don't know.

 

From what i can tell this is one of the final gates on one of the paths to enlightenment:  Releasing the attachments to Desire. 

 

Desire can be good ( healthy ) or bad ( unhealthy ), of course.  Just like anything.  The desire you describe above,^^ is, I'm sorry to report, imho, not a healthy desire. 

 

An example of a  healthy version of Desire is:  wanting to help others towards their own freedom ( teaching ).  Or perhaps another example would be the attachment to the completion of a bridge that is being built, and the individual wants to complete the project, knowing how many people will be helped by it.  That sort of attachment is healthy.

 

Perhaps since you referenced Buddhism, I'll use that framework to answer your question... ( assuming I understand it ).

 

What you're describing is the difference between a Buddah and a Bodhisattva?  Isn't it?  I'm not Buddhist.  So forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn.  The Buddah has no attachments at all, none.   They are obliterated and annihilated.  The Bodhisattva, on the other hand, retains the healthy attachment to the Desire to Teach, to Help, and to Make.  But has no other attachments at all.  It is as if Desire is all that's left.  Healthy desire to help make and do, not unhealthy desire to exploit and dominate.

 

Hopefully that makes sense? 

 

...

 

So, yes there are healthy versions of desire, to help to make and to do virtuous deeds.

 

But, the desire for freedom, is not on my list of healthy attachments as far as I have seen.  I can give examples, but it would insulting to any "Believers in Christ" who may be reading this thread.  And I do not want to disparage their scripture.

 

Does that help?  Too wordy?

 

Sincerely,

[freeform]

Desire is a clunky word it's way too broad unless you have a teacher that can give a very specific definition that aligns with the tradition.

 

Desire is part of the three poisons in Buddhism. Desire, Aversion and Ignorance.

 

'Desire' isn't simply wanting a glass of water - it's more like a clinging - like an attachment to sensory desire. At the root of who 'you' are you may find a kind of deep hunger for some sensory stimulation... to feel good, for sexual gratification, attention, status, money, and all the sensory delights that money can buy...

 

While desire is a 'pull' - aversion is very similar, but more of a 'push' - a kind of dissatisfaction.

 

Ignorance is confusion, delusion - lying to yourself...

[manitou]

And yet, in Vasistha's Yoga that I'm re-reading, it talks about finding moderation.  As freeform said, 'aversion is very similar, but more of a 'push'.  I am one with an addictive personality.  With alcohol, I do have to stay away from the first one.  But when it comes to sugar and chocolate and things like that, I am doing my best to temper myself and walk away from the urge to grab a peanut butter cup.  I don't think aversion is the ticket there, I think it's ignoring the urge.  This is something new for me.  Normally I would cut out sugar or chocolate (or cannabis) and just walk away - aversion.  But I think that rather than it being a binary choice, I'm going to focus on the healthy instead and stay in a good mental place.  I'd love to just not have to think about it at all.

[Daniel]

10 hours ago, freeform said:

Desire is a clunky word it's way too broad unless you have a teacher that can give a very specific definition that aligns with the tradition.

 

Yes.  Thank you for pointing that out.  We have a name for it, but, ... this is going to sound weird ... I can't say it's name.  I'm ( forgive me ) duty bound to secrecy on this.

 

10 hours ago, freeform said:

Desire is part of the three poisons in Buddhism. Desire, Aversion and Ignorance.

 

Yes.  What I'm talking about is 'Craving+Ignorance' at a very high level.   And *Not* in the good way.  There's a name for it in Hebrew, but I can't say it or type it out.

 

OH!  How about this?

 

It's Craving+Ignorance of the worst sort, without a single drop of averice at all.  None.  The other two are full.  And the third is a bottomless pit.

 

That's "It".

 

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Daniel

[manitou]

Daniel, how do you define ignorance?  Of what?

 

And is it not possible that we are not fully liberated until all structure is dropped?

 

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by manitou

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, manitou said:

Daniel, how do you define ignorance?  Of what?

I'm having a very hard time answering your question without speaking in hebrew.

 

I'm sorry.

 

4 hours ago, manitou said:

And is it not possible that we are not fully liberated until all structure is dropped?

Yes I agree, but I'm missing the connection the relevance to this subject matter.

[Daniel]

The simple truth is this.

 

From what I can tell there is a very old something that exploits people, and this very old something found its way here to this forum.

 

I am on a similar website where a similar much much smaller scale event occurred.  No one has been harmed, unlike here.

 

While I have been here, on TDB, I have been collecting samples / examples from the posts on this forum and comparing them to posts on the other forum where I'm usually active.

 

They do appear to be a match.

 

If I'm right and they are a match, I have this other lesser being trapped and bound in the other forum, going nowhere.   I'm concerned that this binding will be weakened by disclosing any information about it. 

 

Like I said, this is a very old being.  PreAdam.  I'm not taking any chances letting it out of its box.  That means I have to be very careful with what I say about it, how I speak about it, and even when I speak about it.

 

But.... it is a lesser being.  So, ya know... just say'n.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Daniel

[helpfuldemon]

Im currently in a phase of non attachment/non desiring, and it wasnt by choice, exactly, except to say that I have renounced worldly things as being dissatisfying or out of reach.  I was never much of a go geter, and never acquired much, but I had my wants and they were satisfied, and part of my initiation was that people need to be satisfied before they are willing to contribute, for what good is a life unfulfilled?  What Ive learned is that it is good to want and to get, and there are things worth having, and things worth keeping and protecting, and this talk of non desire is foolish, and I think it is from a different Age, where it was harder to get what you want.  Also, in the wanting comes destructive means to acquiring, and that is another reason I think non attachment was spoken so highly of.  We live in a different world now.

 

As far as my life goes, I can be at peace with non wanting non having, but I dont want to be, but as I am unable to do anything else, I have to choose to embrace it.

[Daniel]

Thank you for that, @helpfuldemon.  It's a pleasure to meet you.

 

Your reply is Beautiful and Perfect.

[manitou]

On 7/6/2020 at 5:50 PM, Daniel said:

 

Yes.  Thank you for pointing that out.  We have a name for it, but, ... this is going to sound weird ... I can't say it's name.  I'm ( forgive me ) duty bound to secrecy on this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The relevance is in this statement.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by manitou

[Daniel]

30 minutes ago, manitou said:

The relevance is in this statement.

Aaaahhhh.....

 

I'm sorry, I'm duty bound to secrecy. 

 

Basically once I had acheived a certain level of wisdom knowledge and understanding, I took a vow of silence.  Anything Hebrew, Anything Torah, Anything Math related... all of it, I can't speak about it. because *I am not a Rabbi*  ( there are loopholes of course... always )

 

And honestly, knowing and understanding in the manner and scope that I do... I don't even want to talk about it, far and beyond the vow I've taken.

 

Yes, it is servitude, yes, it is submission, yes, it is the opposite of freedom.  I am bound, just the same as all the others.  Except that my slavery is by choice.

 

eta:  it does make conversations awkward at times though, I apologize for that.

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Daniel

[manitou]

 

I understand about the word.

 

Many find that as their knowledge of metaphysics increases, their structure diminishes.  That's what I was referring to.

I'm sure this is my own lack of knowledge talking.  Non-duality is a common theme here, and a structure requires an amount of compliance, which would be a dual action.

 

You appear to me to be someone that is seeking freedom.  I see an internal shakeup in the making.

[Daniel]

11 hours ago, manitou said:

 

I understand about the word.

Thank G-d!  Whew... that makes things easier.

  *blushing*

 

11 hours ago, manitou said:

Many find that as their knowledge of metaphysics increases, their structure diminishes.  That's what I was referring to.

Yes. Agreed.  Thank you for explaining it this way.

 

11 hours ago, manitou said:

I'm sure this is my own lack of knowledge talking.

I beg to differ.  I'm sure it's your significant Wisdom talking.

 

11 hours ago, manitou said:

Non-duality is a common theme here, and a structure requires an amount of compliance, which would be a dual action.

Aaaahhhhhhhhh, and there it is.

 

I am a Jew.  A finite created being essentially stapled to the material world until G-d Almighty chooses to render my material body no longer viable.

 

There is no non-dual practice for me.  Not as long as I am a practicing Judaism.  And that, my dear friend, is why we were talking past each other.  No matter.  Lesson learned.  I can allow myself the freedom to imagine a non-dual reality.  And I can conversate in those terms.  And still be Jewish. 

 

I need to be careful with my language, raise it up to the Daoist standard ( in a manner of speaking ) , then we won't speak past each other in the future.

 

Thank you again, @Manitou.  Thank you very very much.

[Daniel]

11 hours ago, manitou said:

You appear to me to be someone that is seeking freedom.  I see an internal shakeup in the making.

Seeking Freedom?  Nope.

 

Internal shake-up?  Darn-skippy.

 

Sent with love,

 

Daniel

 

.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Daniel

[helpfuldemon]

Desire was the original Sin of Eve.  It was her desire to eat the apple, and to be like God that was the sin, not rebellion.  

[Daniel]

44 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

Desire was the original Sin of Eve.  It was her desire to eat the apple, and to be like God that was the sin, not rebellion. 

I beg to differ.  Eve did not sin.  It's in the Hebrew hiding in plain sight.

 

Desire is not a sin.  Deception, double-speak, jibber-jabber, was the sin.  The serpent taught it to Eve, Eve taught it to her husband and the children.  That is original sin.  Double-speak.

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Daniel

[Daniel]

There are only 3 creations which have no holy properties at all:

 

1)  Double-speak

2)  Primordial Wrath

3)  Anger

 

Desire is not on that list.  Desire is required for procreation.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Daniel

[Daniel]

My Friends new and old,

 

Desire is not a problem if it is unwound.  It's actually rather useful when understood.  Please see below:

 

On 7/6/2020 at 5:50 PM, Daniel said:

It's Craving+Ignorance of the worst sort, without a single drop of avarice at all.

 

No avarice.  None at all. 

 

I have nothing against Desire, I hope I did not offend anyone if this was not clear earlier.

 

 

[manitou]

Desire is only a problem when it becomes craving.