Question on the dantians

[Paradoxal]

To preface: most of my knowledge on cultivation is learned via research, experimentation, and my own experiences. I do have someone who taught me the basics of the basics, but they have not taught me further, thus I likely have some common knowledge gaps. 

 

I've heard people talking about "forming" the dantians in the body as one of the major steps in cultivation. When I first started cultivating, I could already sense the lower dantian, and without attempting to form the other two, I can sense the middle and upper dantian in my body as well. With that in mind, is simply sensing it able to form the dantian? Or is the dantian part of the energetic body by default, and forming is a process that changes it? Or is it possible that I am deluding myself into thinking that what I sense is the dantian? I've been filling and taking from it for about a year now, so I find the idea that what I've been using isn't real rather unlikely, but if it is false, then it'd be best to know as soon as possible. 

 

Thanks for the consideration,

Cheers!

[Cleansox]

34 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

 is it possible that I am deluding myself into thinking that what I sense is the dantian? 

Yes. 

There are a few posts about that subject here. 

 

Basically: While you can feel sensations in those areas, some traditions explicitly state that you first build the structure before it is a dantian. 

 

And, from a Nei Dan perspective, a DAN tian requires dan, otherwise it is a tian (field). 

 

There are practitioners here who might write more about it, or perhaps just link to old threads on the subject, but this is the gist of it. 

[Nintendao]

I heard that some people have a bowl made of hands. I have hands, but I don't know if I have a bowl. I will easily put my hands together into a bowl shape, like as if to scoop up some water. I now have a bowl. I can fill this bowl with dry tea leaves. I can dump the leaves onto my head. It feels neat, but something's missing. I will add water to the bowl. The water keeps leaking out, but through continued perseverance I develop some particular dexterity to close all the gaps and hold the bowl level. It will likely take an even longer time, to keep adding a little bit hotter and hotter of water, before I build up enough to where I can actually brew some decent tea in there. Only then will I have formed the true bowl.

[freeform]

Unfortunately the likelihood of getting somewhere with the Daoist arts through one’s own experimentation is virtually zero...

 

It’s akin to managing to play a world-class sax solo - having never seen or heard a sax. But maybe having read a few descriptions from badly translated books that deliberately obfuscate the meaning and are completely misunderstood and misinterpreted by the vast majority of people.

 

It’s hard enough when you know exactly what you’re doing and have a teacher that has done it and is guiding you along!

Edited July 1, 2020 by freeform

[Cleansox]

56 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

But maybe having read a few descriptions from badly translated books that deliberately obfuscate the meaning and are completely misunderstood and misinterpreted by the vast majority of people.

 

There used to be a dude here that unraveled the true meaning of the book Taoist Yoga. 

 

But now that you mention it, everybody that actually had a teacher told him he was wrong, in multiple threads over quite a few years. 

[freeform]

13 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

There used to be a dude here that unraveled the true meaning of the book Taoist Yoga.

 

Classical texts are extremely tricky.

 

Context is everything. And there are multiple layers of context... For example in a traditional lineage you'd be presented with texts and their various layers of meaning as you progress... a text designed for the later stages, for example, will often contradict a text designed for earlier stages (just as a physics textbook for doctoral studies will often contradict a physics textbook at highschool level)... Sometimes a text will have an outer layer of understanding - and once you've achieved the process described, further study will reveal a deeper layer...

 

Similarly, some practices in the classics are designed for renunciates - monks or those on long term solitary retreat - and would cause a huge host of problems for practitioners with bosses to please, school runs to do and taxes to pay.

 

Another problem is when translators/commentators think - 'oh this sounds a lot like xxxx from another tradition'...

 

Also the texts generally don't describe practices - they usually describe the correct qualities that must be present ('calm unwavering focus' is just three words - but constitutes probably at least 5yrs worth of various practices to achieve) And they describe confirmatory sings (and often errors and pitfalls)... Usually, modern commentators confuse the confirmatory signs (eg seeing a bright light shining at you from in front of your forehead) and assume it is an instruction (imagine a light in front of your forehead).

 

And so simply going by the classics, it's almost impossible to make any real progress.

[thursday]

Does anyone want to write about experience with the Higher dantiens? Not upper dantien, but higher, above the head..

[EmeraldHead]

11 minutes ago, thursday said:

Does anyone want to write about experience with the Higher dantiens? Not upper dantien, but higher, above the head..

no such thing. the dan tiens are a post-natal structure. chi. Chi sticks to the body, around the body. As such it molds it's energy by the body. higher energies/shens provide depth to experience or consciousness and they do not mold by the body. altough meridians will eventually evolve past the body to imitate the higher shens expanding into the universe, they are more auric strings or tentacles that connect to the environment in a natural manner. they are not actual TIENS or DAN TIENs or any kind of nexus/pool/accumulation/centre/bucket/magnet

[thursday]

Perhaps to you there is no such thing.

[Cleansox]

34 minutes ago, thursday said:

Perhaps to you there is no such thing.

Perhaps calling them dantiens are wrong, that doesn't mean that they are not there. Can you sense both the string of pearls going up and the one going down? 

[thursday]

My teacher/lineage calls them Higher dantiens though and I was encouraged to work with at least the first one a while ago. I wasn't given much info.. I feel the first higher one infusing dantiens below with lighter energies..

[Cleansox]

White moon on the mountain peak. 

 

But you will have a better discussion about them in the hindu section. 

[freeform]

8 minutes ago, thursday said:

My teacher/lineage calls them Higher dantiens though and I was encouraged to work with at least the first one a while ago.

Different systems work differently - what lineage is this?

[Cleansox]

Frantzis: Dragon and Tiger medical qigong vol 2, p. 143.

"Toward the upper boundary of your etheric body above your head there is a mixing area where your etheric body connects with the energy of heaven. In that space, your body naturally exchanges energy with heaven." 

 

Or, to quote my teacher: "Just continue practicing." 

 

[thursday]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

Different systems work differently - what lineage is this?

 

I agree and I'm still practising with the Guild system.. we chat about it some time ago

[freeform]

Yes we did - wanted to check if that’s who you’re learning this from.

[thursday]

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yes we did - wanted to check if that’s who you’re learning this from.

 

Higher dantiens sounds familiar in classical Daoism? I guess within Daoism are also many different lineages and interpretations..

[EmeraldHead]

I thought classical Daoism talk about "purer breaths" not higher centers. Entirely different and cosmically and objectively higher levels of awareness/consciousness; As opposed to increasing already existing states forever in a horizontal type manner. Like going back to the rootless, rather than increasing your roots to the whole universe. So impure breaths are the rocket fuel but not the cultivation.

[freeform]

16 minutes ago, thursday said:

Higher dantiens sounds familiar in classical Daoism?

This wouldn’t be on the level of the Dantiens - the centres above the head are less ‘dense’ and more on the consciousness body level - more like the chakra system. 
 

These aspects are usually inaccessible unless you’re stabilised in samadhi level of concentration.

[Rara]

20 hours ago, Cleansox said:

 

And, from a Nei Dan perspective, a DAN tian requires dan, otherwise it is a tian (field). 

 

 

Do you have a translation for "Dan"?

[thursday]

5 minutes ago, freeform said:

This wouldn’t be on the level of the Dantiens - the centres above the head are less ‘dense’ and more on the consciousness body level - more like the chakra system. 
 

These aspects are usually inaccessible unless you’re stabilised in samadhi level of concentration.

 

Yes, lighter.. not denser, is how it feels. I have no experience with Samadhi. My current teacher wrote he has practiced and attained Samadhi states in a lineage he used to be part of.  He explained that there's an obvious difference between a Samadhi state and where the Guild system develops towards (when I inquired about Samadhi and the experiences I've had). Sensing the Higher dantien isn't what a beginner in the Guild system starts out with either.. I do have a foundation that allows for this.

[Cleansox]

6 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

Do you have a translation for "Dan"?

Elixir 

[Rara]

7 hours ago, freeform said:

Context is everything. And there are multiple layers of context... For example in a traditional lineage you'd be presented with texts and their various layers of meaning as you progress... a text designed for the later stages, for example, will often contradict a text designed for earlier stages (just as a physics textbook for doctoral studies will often contradict a physics textbook at highschool level)... Sometimes a text will have an outer layer of understanding - and once you've achieved the process described, further study will reveal a deeper layer...

 

Similarly, some practices in the classics are designed for renunciates - monks or those on long term solitary retreat - and would cause a huge host of problems for practitioners with bosses to please, school runs to do and taxes to pay.

 

Seriously, a good point. I might have to steal this for when others talk confusedly about Daoism. Facebook pages are great for that!

[Rara]

7 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Elixir 

 

In the back of my mind, it was there! One of those where I've seen "elixir field" around and not put two and two together 🙄

Edited July 1, 2020 by Rara

[Nintendao]

29 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

In the back of my mind, it was there! One of those where I've seen "elixir field" around and not put two and two together 🙄

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/48451-lg02-丹田-dantian-till-a-field-and-dig-a-well/

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/49210-lg04-金丹神仙-jindan-shenxian-golden-elixir-of-immortality/