Looks like a democratic tsunami up ahead. How should they behave?

[Encephalon]

Put another way, what types of progressive legislation would you like to see  initiated?

Seems like just about everything seems like a candidate for reform, from ag and food policy to health care, land use to education, the Green New Deal to another Homestead Act.

 

 

[SirPalomides]

I don’t think there will be a Democratic tsunami. Even if there is, it will consist mostly of center-rightists like Biden who will do nothing effectual to address climate change, healthcare, systemic racism, etc. They will prolong pointless wars to enrich their friends in the military industrial complex. It’s true there are a lot more candidates talking about green new deal, m4a, etc. but these are just words without well-organized grassroots pressure- and the left is very weak and fragmented. The oligarchy is vicious and well-organized. Trump is just a symptom. Real change in the US is not going to come from the ballot box. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by SirPalomides

[helpfuldemon]

I dont know.  Im a white male living in the middle of the country where there is mostly peaceful Christians so I have no complaints.  Im not that sensitive to global warming (or informed enough) to worry about the green new deal, but from what I know about it, it makes sense, and should be a good revenue building industry- though what it would do to the other industries that arent green, IDK (probably why its not happening). 

 

I have no complaints about my rights, but I read that the ratio for black people dying at the hands of cops compared to white people is 3 to 1, and that says something, but its not just about racism, its probably got to do with the fact that since blacks have not had the opportunity and history to create wealth like Caucasians, there is more poverty, and with poverty comes crime- not that it HAS to include crime, but those without have to find some means to acquire the goods that they need to live.  I was under the impression that we had conquered the school zoning problem but maybe not, maybe poor districts have poorer schools still.  It takes more than an opportunity for an education- it requires a safe home environment for learning, and when the house is poor or there is crime, there isnt the chance to learn in peace or be inspired to believe that education is the way out of poverty.  Things to address in this light is single parent homes with deadbeat dads not paying child support, so I am all about more welfare for these people, but we all know how the right feels about welfare.  Trying to adjust premarital sex or marriage to the father of your children isnt going to work.  Maybe if we stopped letting our youth culture promote sex and drugs things would be different.  Education is always paramount to adjusting these things, and I am all for contraception education.  I came up with a method to teach kids how things work but was told that is already implemented in schools, so Im out of ideas.  I just hope the democrats continue with their aiding education and welfare for the less privileged.

 

Its still sad the way the religious right is failing their ideals with their voting measures, mostly because they are against abortion, but also because they believe that the little man needs to take care of their lives and livelihood on their own by adopting the morals of the religion.  This is true to some degree but not everyone takes this on, and in the land of the free, we have to take care of everyone from a religious perspective, and not hold to the belief that if we take care of the Man, the Man will take care of us.  Its written into our constitution that we should be taxed to aid our people, and there should be enough money to go around to help everyone.  

 

As far as health care goes- I dont see a way to stop them from raising the costs so high when it is covered by the government.  Unfortunately people with free health care go to the doctor a lot from what I have seen.  Who am I to tell them they shoudnt be concerned about their health?  Its too bad that the health care association takes advantage, but health care has always been expensive.  

 

 

[ilumairen]

This worthy topic is being temporarily locked, pending moderator review.

 

Edit to add: after a couple posts not keeping with the spirit of the forum were hidden the topic has been reopened.

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by ilumairen

[thelerner]

nvr mnd

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2020 by thelerner

[doc benway]

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[bax44]

global warming, like "systemic racism" are emotional buzzwords and nothing more, to ellicit emotional reactions from people who need a cause to fight for to justify their victim mentality.

 

https://www.cfact.org/2020/06/29/book-review-apocalypse-never-by-michael-shellenberger/

 

This guy , who was once involved with Obamas environmental committee, has seen the light and pretty much destroys the myth that we are all gonna die in the next ten years from the climate "crisis". He has recently been censored in a lot of left leaning internet hotspots(shock).

 

The way to a cleaner, sustainable planet is not to eliminate fossil fuels and nuclear power, but rather to expand their use, especially in developing countries to bring economic growth and prosperity, the way such sources did for the developed world.

This is one of the primary themes in the new book, Apocalypse Never, written not by a “climate denier” or “corporate shill.” Instead, author Michael Shellenberger is a 30-year environmental activist with street cred in various causes including saving California’s redwood forests and co-founding a “progressive Democratic, labor-environment push” in 2002 for the New Apollo Project, a renewable energy initiative that long predated the Green New Deal. He also is a Time magazine “Hero of the Environment.”

[ilumairen]

And now we are locked again, pending further review.

 

Edit to add: The first sentence of the preceding post led to some moderator discussion, until the posting member was banned for refusal to edit a post in another thread and cursing out the mod who requested the edit - thereby rendering the discussion somewhat moot.

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by ilumairen

[Encephalon]

I could have framed this thread differently, perhaps by suggesting a conversation about what kind of legislation we would like to see here in America that empowers people rather than corporate interests.  It may not be a practical or manageable feat here; I believe that my political longings are sound and consistent with my spiritual convictions, but I suppose anyone could make the same claim. 

 

I'm intrigued by the book suggestion "Apocalypse Never."  I'm a committed progressive, a democratic socialist, but  I'm always on the lookout for scholars who reveal the logical weaknesses of forceful arguments, including my own.  The world depends on it.  I'm not so sure we can dismiss systemic racism. It may not reverberate equally throughout our culture but it can get mighty concentrated in some corners.  In the thick of Los Angeles, I'm soaking in it.

 

The dissenting views regarding global warming should be expected in a world that has long dismissed the fact of impermanence of all things, including earth, oil, consumer capitalism.  I can't wait to read the book; I could use a healthy dose of legitimate optimism. From what I've gathered from reviews, it appears the author remains optimistic about humanity's ability to grow up and enthusiastically replace consumer capitalism with something ecologically tenable.  That seems likelier than some green technology breakthrough. 

 

I have a 9-year-old daughter.  I'm ready for solutions! 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Encephalon
TyPoS

[helpfuldemon]

To me racism has to include discrimination and unfortunately people hate for all kinds of reasons.  All kinds of people are discriminated against all the time.  Its unfortunate that the color of someones skin automatically includes certain preformed opinions that we term racist.  The same is true on the reverse side though.  Racism gets all the press but what about discrimination against over weight people, or poor people in general, or unattractive people, or uneducated people?  

[Encephalon]

Well, I'd love to get the original thread on progressive legislation started again, seems like a perfect topic for assessing political longing and imagination.  So many opportunities to fix current problems, to bring our culture closer to an enlightened state (a couple centimeters closer).

I think it was Ghandi who said those who don't recognize the relationship between spirituality and politics understand neither.  They are different expressions of values, different orders of magnitude.  I hope this can unfold in here without acrimony, but if not, I'll cease and desist.

 

[SirPalomides]

I think universal healthcare and some expansion of the social safety net are bare minimum reforms for the US to become a livable place for many people. In other countries, in the face of labor and other leftist movements, the ruling class saw such concessions as acceptable to stave off deeper social unrest and buy time for capital. Because the US left is so weak, such concessions are unlikely to happen soon. A strong grassroots left is essential. And they need to be organized and, where necessary, armed for self-defense. Right-wing militias may look stupid and incompetent but they can be put to deadly use in the right circumstances.

 

In the matter of foreign policy, the phased withdrawal of US troops from their myriad placements abroad and deep cuts to "defense" spending are necessary, with well-planned provisions for the reintegration of demobilized soldiers to civilian life.

[Welcomer]

1 hour ago, SirPalomides said:

I think universal healthcare and some expansion of the social safety net are bare minimum reforms for the US to become a livable place for many people. In other countries, in the face of labor and other leftist movements, the ruling class saw such concessions as acceptable to stave off deeper social unrest and buy time for capital. Because the US left is so weak, such concessions are unlikely to happen soon. A strong grassroots left is essential. And they need to be organized and, where necessary, armed for self-defense. Right-wing militias may look stupid and incompetent but they can be put to deadly use in the right circumstances.

 

In the matter of foreign policy, the phased withdrawal of US troops from their myriad placements abroad and deep cuts to "defense" spending are necessary, with well-planned provisions for the reintegration of demobilized soldiers to civilian life.

I like everything you said except for the 'where necessary, armed for self-defense.  I'd rather they call the police or journalists and have cameras out to record infractions. 

The Right wing militias do look stupid and when they use force it usually backfires.  Plus you can't control the extremes in your own movement, the violent ones give the other side ammo to dismiss and tar the entire movement..  

[ilumairen]

6 minutes ago, Welcomer said:

I like everything you said except for the 'where necessary, armed for self-defense.  I'd rather they call the police or journalists and have cameras out to record infractions. 

 

 

I saw a press conference given by a Florida law enforcement officer when some protests around the country were being used as cover for criminal activity. He was very direct about the people in his jurisdiction not only being armed, but encouraged to act in defense of their homes should somebody be foolish enough to try to forcefully enter. I don’t think there are so many home invasions here..

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by ilumairen

[SirPalomides]

34 minutes ago, Welcomer said:

I like everything you said except for the 'where necessary, armed for self-defense.  I'd rather they call the police or journalists and have cameras out to record infractions. 

 

The police and right-wing paramilitaries overlap, if not in personnel then at least in ideological commitment. They are not trustworthy. It was the police and FBI who systematically targeted black leadership in the 60's and 70's for murder and incarceration, infiltrating and destroying leftist movements. They are not friends. An unarmed left is ripe for slaughter, as shown in Indonesia 1965 and many other examples around the world.

 

 

[thelerner]

No one is slaughtering the unarmed left in the US.  While we'll always have some examples of police brutalities its not the 60's or 70s.  I have sympathy for the antifa movement but truth is by punching a couple bad guys in the face they gave the Alt-Right a huge boogie man to rally and fund raise against; a threat and a Cause.  Not worth it. 

 

The mindset of considering police as the enemy is not helpful.  Not calling looters and vandals criminal, likewise is not helpful.  Pulling weapons and marching armed in the current environment will not help any cause, imo.  

[SirPalomides]

The left in the US (not the liberals, the left) is weak, fractured, and ineffectual, hence no need for severe repression. You can thank COINTELPRO and the Reagan reaction for some of that. That will change if the left becomes organized and effective, at which point the need to defend against the state and allied paramilitaries will be real. That's when the old COINTELPRO methods get dusted off and revamped. That's not paranoia, that's the teaching of history. 

 

I am glad to see some American leftist groups are training with arms.

[senseless virtue]

1 hour ago, SirPalomides said:

I am glad to see some American leftist groups are training with arms.

 

I would be glad to see private people interested self-defense, hunting, and marksmanship to learn basic skills in using handguns and hunting rifles. Anything more is excessive unless you train with the military or tactical police squads.

 

More about that going overboard department: People congregating under political and otherwise intentionally factional banners to train with arms is just bullshit. Think about for a moment what kind of seeds you are sowing and what kind of moral panic it would create, especially if it turns out to include actual combat training. If you want to foster peace and really bring people together then forget guns — unless you want to have a traditional shotgun wedding.

[SirPalomides]

As Stokely Carmichael said, "In order for non-violence to work, your opponent must have a conscience. The United States has none.'

[senseless virtue]

It's disappointing to realize that there are members here on the Dao Bums hinting violence as a key factor in building a better world for everyone.

 

Quote

If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

— Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

 

Take the following in contrast with the quote above:

 

8 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

As Stokely Carmichael said, "In order for non-violence to work, your opponent must have a conscience. The United States has none.'

 

This quote masquerades as moral outrage, but it is stopping short of calling another group of people sub-humans. Then I recall you have history of systematically defending the People's Republic of China despite its obvious abuses against specific ethnicities. For you to not to be a hypocrite in this instance you should also be crying for the armament of the Uyghurs and Tibetans who are suffering right now at the hands of a highly organized government lacking conscience and good faith.

 

https://madeinchinajournal.com/2020/07/07/what-about-whataboutism/

[SirPalomides]

What a curious attempt to derail the thread into an ad hominem attack

[senseless virtue]

9 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

What a curious attempt to derail the thread into an ad hominem attack

 

Please look in the mirror very carefully. No one likes hypocrisy, and exposing hypocritical standards is not any sort of "ad hominem attack."

 

I made a strong ethical point about not mixing guns and practical street-level politics because we don't want to encourage or escalate violence, now do we?

 

Then you cited a political fighter disowning non-violence and calling the US immoral. It's completely relevant and clearheaded to call out your own shilling for the Chinese government in this regard.

 

You have showed much wisdom outside of political topics, so what's stopping you from applying the same principles of lucidity and kindness here?

[SirPalomides]

If you want to make a thread about me, start it. Otherwise stick to the problems of US politics. Citing my alleged hypocrisy with reference to a separate topic makes the argument about me. Much as I love talking about myself, not what this thread is for. 
 

I note that I mentioned the need for armed self-defense of leftists “where necessary” and not as a panacea or substitute for the hard work of organizing. It is not a strategy or a program. By itself it is meaningless. But, again citing the long record of the American state in systematically attacking even slightly effective leftist movements (including the non-violent ones) and employing right-wing proxies with plausible deniability, it is beyond naive to deny that it will be needed. “It can’t happen here” is the perpetual mantra of victims of eight-wing violence around the world. This has nothing to do with vilifying groups of people (pace Solzhenitsyn) but of recognizing the reality of a system propped up on extreme violence and willing to use more to preserve itself even against moderate reform. 
 

The apparent ascendancy of BLM is due to the growing recognition and anger at how police lynch black people using flimsy legal pretexts (or none at all) and that they are bulwarks of white supremacy. Telling American leftists to just call the police in case of trouble in that context just sounds surreal.

Edited July 9, 2020 by SirPalomides

[doc benway]

MODERATOR NOTICE

 

Please stay on topic and avoid ad hominem arguments.

The moderation team does not intend to work very hard to allow political discussions here. If they get heated or personal, they will be shut down. While politics and spirituality may be inextricably linked, the luxury of discussing politics here is dependent on the ability of all participants to remain respectful and civil. Thank you for your understanding and for helping us to make this a safe and supportive platform for everyone.

Edited July 9, 2020 by steve

[zerostao]

A Democrat tsunami is not the same thing as a progressive tsunami.

Establishment Democrats have not jumped on board with progressive initiatives. This was clear in the 2016 and 2020 democratic primaries. Establishment Democrats gaurd the status quo. Maybe there will be a 2 centimeter shift and that will be called progress.

That's at the national level. I think there is hope that at the state level, progressive change is more likely ; Especially California and the west coast. Homestead acts vary greatly state to state and usually are found in the more conservative states, ie Kansas.

I've been searching for a couple years, (much longer) researching which state laws and programs are a better fit for my own personal taste. It's not easy. I think the approach of finding a state that already has favorable laws and programs existing is more expedient than staying in place waiting hopefully for favorable changes to happen through potential legislation.

Imo how they should behave will not resemble how they act. Promises in the year of election are often soon set aside and tabled in sub committees.

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by zerostao