Looks like a democratic tsunami up ahead. How should they behave?

[ilumairen]

Some random thoughts as a view on the subject slowly coalesces:

 

The ability to deny systemic racism may actually be a symptom of, and indication of the effectiveness, of just what it denies - systemic racism.

 

Police presence, documentation, and journalist contact, as seen in some recent cases doesn’t make someone less dead.

 

Ideals about not escalating violence tend to serve those with a tendency towards violence and those willing to forcefully use their power and position to maintain and/or abuse said power and position.

[SirPalomides]

Again, all I'm talking about is self-defense. Not escalating violence, but recognizing that the violence is already here, in potential and kinetic forms, and that in many situations being law-abiding and unarmed isn't going to save you. Non-violence has tactical application in some instances but it is not the cure-all some hoped it would be. Of course people shouldn't go strutting around and picking fights- that just gets people killed with nothing to show for it. If some hothead with Che Guevara fantasies shows up at your affinity group, politely turn them down.

 

Anyway, back to specific policy proposals- free college. I'm reading this article from Current Affairs which gives a good overview of the struggles for public education and how free college was widely seen as a next step until derailed by a variety of factors: https://www.currentaffairs.org/2020/07/whats-new-about-free-college

[Taomeow]

21 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

I am glad to see some American leftist groups are training with arms.

 

Which groups specifically? 

 

Here in CA the very people who always campaigned against the second amendment bought all the guns and all the ammo all of a sudden, leaving gun stores stark bare months ahead of the protests.  In March the sales of firearms in democratic CA skyrocketed by 900%.  People formed hours long lines to get their lock, stock and barrel.  Any idea which groups had this kind of foresight, and how exactly did they know?  "Leftist" is such an elastic term...  nice people believe it merely stands for all things nice in politics, but not-so-nice people define it by markers that elsewhere in the world, at least in the first world countries, would place them squarely at moderate right to far right and beyond.     

[SirPalomides]

Just now, Taomeow said:

 

Which groups specifically? 

 

It's mainly small affinity groups, but some well-known ones include the Socialist Rifle Association. Friends of mine have been part of local leftist/ anarchist gun clubs going back to the 00's. Some BLM protests have seen a marked presence of armed supporters in open-carry states (many of whom could use some pointers on gun safety).

 

Just now, Taomeow said:

 

Here in CA the very people who always campaigned against the second amendment bought all the guns and all the ammo all of a sudden, leaving gun stores stark bare months ahead of the protests.  In March the sales of firearms in democratic CA skyrocketed by 900%.

 

CA is the most populous state in the US, no? Go outside the Bay Area or LA area and it's not hard to find very right-wing people. So I imagine that accounts for a large part of it.

 

Just now, Taomeow said:

 

  People formed hours long lines to get their lock, stock and barrel.  Any idea which groups had this kind of foresight, and how exactly did they know? 

 

Maybe it's George Soros preparing his antifa army for the final Marxist takeover.

[Taomeow]

9 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

CA is the most populous state in the US, no? Go outside the Bay Area or LA area and it's not hard to find very right-wing people. So I imagine that accounts for a large part of it.

 

This seems to contradict your earlier assertion that it's leftist groups you are glad to see training with arms. 

 

Nevemind though.  Your next statement which I guess is supposed to be sarcastic   

 

10 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

Maybe it's George Soros preparing his antifa army for the final Marxist takeover

 

proves that I've no business participating in this thread.  Marxist takeover?  I've lived through the Eastern European aftermath of that, which is more than I can say about a whole bunch of my ancestors who died in the process and as a direct outcome (so I never had a grandfather, e.g.), and I can assure you -- I'm as sarcastic about the proposition as you are, but for an entirely different set of reasons.

[SirPalomides]

All I'm saying is, if CA firearms sales skyrocketed by 900%* in March as part of some coordinated effort to do ???, in connection with BLM protests, we should be seeing the attempted ??? happen pretty soon, if not already. That doesn't seem likely to me but I guess we'll see.

 

*citation needed

Edited July 9, 2020 by SirPalomides

[SirPalomides]

4 hours ago, zerostao said:

A Democrat tsunami is not the same thing as a progressive tsunami.

Establishment Democrats have not jumped on board with progressive initiatives. This was clear in the 2016 and 2020 democratic primaries. Establishment Democrats gaurd the status quo. Maybe there will be a 2 centimeter shift and that will be called progress.

 

 

 

About that 2 centimeter shift:

 

"We've Moved the Needle" But Far More Work to Do, Say Progressives as Biden-Sanders Panels Unveil Policy Blueprint

 

Of course a platform is only meaningful if there is intent and capability to actually try and implement it.

 

[liminal_luke]

On 9/7/2020 at 9:59 AM, ilumairen said:

 

The ability to deny systemic racism may actually be a symptom of, and indication of the effectiveness, of just what it denies - systemic racism.

 

 

Amen.

 

Overt racism has largely, though not entirely, gone out of fashion.  People these days are less likely to shout standard racial slurs, for instance, for fear of being seen in a negative light by a more socially conscious public.  What we´re left with is systemic racism, a more slippery, hidden kind of prejudice that´s harder to pin down, harder to see.  Racism has retreated out of sight where it can operate subconsciously.  This is both heartening and incredibly frustrating.  

 

My mom, a white woman, told me recently how she´s become newly aware of her own racism.  She remembers feeling afraid to ride an elevator alone with a black man.  Looking back, she feels that her fear was based on race and unjustified.  Her willingness to be vulnerable and share got me thinking about my own biases and prejudice.  I love that we were able to have this conversation.  Nothing blocks progress towards racial equality like those three little oft-repeated words: I´m not racist.  Racism is such a cultural bugaboo that nobody wants to admit to being party to it, not even a smidgen.  And yet almost all of us are.  

 

Black lives matter.  Some members of the movement by that name may have fomented violence at their protests.  They may have defaced property.  I am entirely against  both violence and vandalism, so I wish they wouldn´t, however justified their anger.  I believe that most police want to serve the cause of justice and do right.  (Am I naive?)  The answer to our racial woes is not to eliminate law enforcement.  What police officers and everybody else needs is a safe place where we can search our hearts and bring to light our biases without shame.  Progressive anti-racist vitriol can be counterproductive when it creates a hostile polarized social environment uncondusive to personal reflection and the quiet taking of responsibility.  Unless we give ourselves permission to become aware of our own racism we´re doomed to act it out.  

Edited July 9, 2020 by liminal_luke

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, SirPalomides said:

*citation needed

 

I'm not sure where Google put it since I've seen it, but what I did find instead when I went back trying to find that reference is Ammo.com statistics for a bunch of other states -- I hope these might be conductive to your believing me when I say I have indeed seen them about CA too.  Ammo.com aren't allowed to ship to CA so our modest 900% didn't make it to the list -- and a very modest figure it is compared to what the statistics referenced below tell you of a few other states: the leftist strongholds are as well, or better, represented as the rightist ones. 

 

State Ranking by Sales Volume		Most Popular Caliber by Sales Volume		2nd		3rd
State	% Increase		% Increase		% Increase		% Increase
1. Texas	+524%	9mm ammo	+1,016%	223 ammo	+2,478%	40 S&W Ammo	+1,321%
2. Florida	+435%	9mm ammo	+758%	223 ammo	+1,385%	45 ACP Ammo	+600%
3. Illinois	+400%	9mm ammo	+599%	223 ammo	+1,577%	45 ACP Ammo	+255%
4. Georgia	+334%	9mm ammo	+568%	223 ammo	+2,252%	40 S&W Ammo	+543%
5. Colorado	+746%	9mm ammo	+1,263%	223 ammo	+5,970%	45 ACP Ammo	+1,334%
6. Arizona	+628%	9mm ammo	+1,473%	223 ammo	+1,556%	45 ACP Ammo	+734%
7. Virginia	+242%	9mm ammo	+617%	223 ammo	+1,032%	40 S&W Ammo	+349%
8. Ohio	+469%	9mm ammo	+674%	223 ammo	+2,217%	40 S&W Ammo	+374%
9. Washington	+795%	9mm ammo	+1,377%	223 ammo	+1,539%	40 S&W Ammo	+538%
10. North Carolina	+430%	9mm ammo	+823%	223 ammo	+2,083%	40 S&W Ammo	+732%

 

https://ammo.com/coronavirus-impact-on-ammunition-sales

 

With all due respect, I don't think it's exclusively the far right who are driving the numbers way up above the clouds in every one of them. 

 

I can only envy people who are capable of making instant clear-cut enemies out of anyone who is not their political clone.  How simple their lives are.  For me it's never simple.  If I had to buy some kind of package politics, I would have to make enemies out of all my friends.  That's because one is far on the anti anti-Trump left (yup, there is such a thing -- ask Tulsi Gabbard), one votes Republican and makes equal-opportunity-offensive jokes all the time but teaches math in all-black schools in all-black neighborhoods while being white himself (chose this job out of conviction that good education matters and is willing to do something about it personally), one is a Jewish woman teaching English at a Muslim school to little immigrant kids who hit her with Islamic radical fundamentalist ideas reinforced in the family on a daily basis -- and manages to win their hearts and minds -- she absolutely hates all things socialist/communist/anarchist though -- then again, another one is a black woman who supports BLM and is a feminist but is otherwise extremely conservative -- she's a scientist working for one of the biotech companies, a Christian, and a vehement homophobe with extremely negative stance on the whole LGBTQ agenda.  I could go on and on and on.

 

But what about folks who don't stress me out with these controversies, the ones who buy prepackaged politics?  The caricature right or caricature left?  Well, I don't maintain friendships with either because I get nothing out of communicating with folks who are unable to think for themselves (regardless of whether their thinking is right or wrong, or right or left) and can only regurgitate whatever MSM of their choice has put in their head.   So, nobody to lose there.    

Edited July 9, 2020 by Taomeow

[helpfuldemon]

46 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Amen.

 

Overt racism has largely, though not entirely, gone out of fashion.  People these days are less likely to shout standard racial slurs, for instance, for fear of being seen in a negative light by a more socially conscious public.  What we´re left with is systemic racism, a more slippery, hidden kind of prejudice that´s harder to pin down, harder to see.  Racism has retreated out of sight where it can operate subconsciously.  This is both heartening and incredibly frustrating.  

 

My mom, a white woman, told me recently how she´s become newly aware of her own racism.  She remembers feeling afraid to ride an elevator alone with a black man.  Looking back, she feels that her fear was based on race and unjustified.  Her willingness to be vulnerable and share got me thinking about my own biases and prejudice.  I love that we were able to have this conversation.  Nothing blocks progress towards racial equality like those three little oft-repeated words: I´m not racist.  Racism is such a cultural bugaboo that nobody wants to admit to being party to it, not even a smidgen.  And yet almost all of us are.  

 

Black lives matter.  Some members of the movement by that name may have fomented violence at their protests.  They may have defaced property.  I am entirely against  both violence and vandalism, so I wish they wouldn´t, however justified their anger.  I believe that most police want to serve the cause of justice and do right.  (Am I naive?)  The answer to our racial woes is not to eliminate law enforcement.  What police officers and everybody else needs is a safe place where we can search our hearts and bring to light our biases without shame.  Progressive anti-racist vitriol can be counterproductive when it creates a hostile polarized social environment uncondusive to personal reflection and the quiet taking of responsibility.  Unless we give ourselves permission to become aware of our own racism we´re doomed to act it out.  

 

 

Again, things like this happen to unattractive people all the time, yet there is no conversation about how we regard homeless people, native Americans, overweight people, people who dont speak English correctly, disabled people...  black people arent any more special than these others, or are they?

[thelerner]

21 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

As Stokely Carmichael said, "In order for non-violence to work, your opponent must have a conscience. The United States has none.'

I see some truth in this, in that Gandhi and Martin Luthor King Jr inspired millions and caused political and actual reforms in the world, whereas it wouldn't have worked in say Nazi Germany or a repressive regime. 

 

I also see the fact that the marches and protests due to Floyds death are rocking America.  There is soul searching and changes going on.  Not immediate or as far as some of the Left would like, but reforms are happening.  Thus I think the US still has a conscience.  We also have push back but then doesn't every movement. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by thelerner

[SirPalomides]

29 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 That's because one is far on the anti anti-Trump left (yup, there is such a thing -- ask Tulsi Gabbard),

 

I'm mostly a fan of Tulsi Gabbard. Her stance on the Syria war was a brave and quite lonely one to take. It led to her being branded a Russian agent by establishment liberals, which seems to be par for the course for anyone questioning US foreign policy orthodoxy nowadays. I think she would be a smart VP choice for Biden but that will never happen.

Edited July 9, 2020 by SirPalomides

[liminal_luke]

22 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

 

Again, things like this happen to unattractive people all the time, yet there is no conversation about how we regard homeless people, native Americans, overweight people, people who dont speak English correctly, disabled people...  black people arent any more special than these others, or are they?

 

I think there is conversation about those groups but if you want more, by all means, start a dialogue.  The way to support the homeless, overweight, differently abled, etc is to support them.  As a fat old gay guy, I will wholeheartedly applaud your efforts.  Just remember, supporting these folks doesn´t necessitate the withdrawl of support for the cause of racial justice. There´s enough love to go around.

Edited July 9, 2020 by liminal_luke