It is known

[Nungali]

35 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Here we go again...

another six-thousand-year-old powder keg exploding for the six thousandth time.

 

 

Or as the not recognized by nearly any country independent republic calls itself,

 

 

 

Azerbaijan  is also on the west of  Armenia .... Armenia divides  Azerbaijan ? ? ?      I never knew that ! 

[SirPalomides]

Yeah that's the Nakhchivan exclave. Sometimes dueling empires, ethnic cleansing, and nationalism combine to create some really stupid-looking maps.

[Taomeow]

If 2020 was a movie, it would have been "The Room."

[Taomeow]

.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Taomeow

[Taomeow]

Altogether elsewhere, two anniversaries today -- one starting an era, on October 4, 1957,

the other one ending it, on October 4, 1993.

 

  

 

[shunka]

I new of the crisis in Moscow, but I had completely forgotten

" Tanks of the Taman Division shelling the Russian White House on 4 October 1993 "

 

thanks

 

learn from history, or be doomed to repeat it.

shunka

[Taomeow]

Air advisory in our parts -- close windows, avoid outdoor activities, run an air purifier (everyone is expected to own one for every room I guess), wear a mask, or better yet, try not to overdo it with breathing, it's not that good for you these days.  Air quality index is dancing around 200, main pollutant being PM2.5 -- "particulate matter" -- the bashful way to say incinerated matter -- and our glorious governor is busy saving us all by manifesting laws that will ban cars by the year 2035.  Obviously banning tinderboxes of dead trees right about now is not a priority -- after all, it has zero chance of generating any good housekeeping credits. 

 

That plastic doll  elected official always has his priorities straight.   His latest pull on the strings of his constituent puppets who adore being micromanaged: when dining out with your family, wear a mask in between bites.  He literally said that in his tweet.  And suggested to minimize the times you take it off.  I guess I could meet that goal by swallowing the steak whole, that would minimize the mask-off time in between bites, but I think I better practice at home first, seems like a rather arcane skill to acquire, and I'm no stranger to arcane skills acquisition.

 

And to think I was  the first person in California to put the mask on, way back in early February.  Against the prevalent message of the time from our health czars repeated many times by all the talking heads -- "masks are useless and increase your risk of getting infected, but it's just a flu anyway, stop spreading panic."   

 

There's two Chinese proverbs we live by.  "Locking the stable after the horse has escaped."  "Closing all doors against thieves when the thieves are already inside the house."   

[Taomeow]

A statue of Mikhail Gorbachev erected in Germany, of all places.

That thing he holds in his hand which puzzled me at first (I remember Gorbachev very well but this brought back absolutely no associations) merited some research.  Turns out it's a symbolic sign, specifically, a Mason's gavel.  "Hand on heart" is another symbolic gesture of the same affiliaton.  Well...  butter me both sides and call me a conspi  biscuit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

Almost made me cry.  

 

[Nungali]

Dont take a drive across inland Australia then !

 

Its one of the things that bugs me even  around here . Many of the paddocks dont have enough trees . In summer I drive past  cattle huddled up together in the heat trying to find  shade shelter under a lone tree    .

 

I even nearly had a physical fight over it !  (only didnt happen as Mr 6'3" 'bully boy' backed down ) .  My stupid neighbour had a goat that he was abusing   (of course he said he wasn't and other morons said that was 'harsh language ' ) but I had already saved goats life once  and what a scene that was , it was really difficult, but I did it , later we collapsed in exhaustion together  - so that bonded us closely .

 

Anyway, the dickhead kept tying goat up in bad places and going out all day, so I visit goat make sure there was water, give  him a pat and scratch and move him to a shady tree. 'Owner'     would tie him to a dead tree in the  sun    wtf ? !

 

So we (me and other good neighbour ) decided to chop down the dead tree for firewood, knobface comes drives past in his huge 4wd, stops, comes over  and starts screaming " Dont chop down that tree thats my goat tying up tree ! "

 

Me;  "  But there are trees all around this field and a few in the middle where he can be tied instead, that way he can go in and out of the shade as he needs to, also the grass is better there and he can eat the low leaves  on the tree , out here its dry and hardly any grass ." etc .   But he stars yelling and acting crazy so I advanced on him and told him to fuck off, which he started to . Nice neighbour was freaked out by him  so we decided to through the towel for the day, so I left. Then I hear dickhead yelling again, he waited till I left and went for the  calm guy, so I came back and told him if he  wants to start trouble , here I am .  he left again .

 

next day, goat is tied to dead tree and in the sun   what the hell !  

 

So I moved the goat, got other neighbour, chopped down the tree, got the firewood, pulled the rest up around the stump and set fire to it.

  The he comes home from work, driving by and sees our  bonfire      . 

 

Even the nicest seeming people I have witnessed treating animals  like some distributor of goods or product and not a fellow living being . just a  milk distributor to be 'used' for our advantage  .... I really dont get it !

 

- sorry for the rant , its  sore spot that your picture triggered .

 

Here is one of the better  fields ;  green grass , plenty of shade ,   forage as well as grazing , a swimming hole .

 

 

 

The 'Murray Grey' stud I used to live near even had   'sawdust pits '  for  them to roll in . 

 

 

[Taomeow]

@Nungali Thanks for the story.   And for standing up for the goat. 

[Taomeow]

The episode with the fly on Pence's head gives new meaning to the Latin proverb,

Aquila non captat muscas.  

 

Then again, who's to say it wasn't a micro-drone demonstration by an intel company showing off its capabilities to those who would know what they're looking at?

 

After all they're the real "aquilas" in this whole equation with way too many unknowns.    

[Taomeow]

In 1959, Richard Nixon, then vice-president, visited the USSR, attending the opening of the exhibition "Industrial Products of the USA" in Moscow.  A debate between him and Nikita Khrushchev then took place in the general area of the exhibited kitchen, each arguing for the advantages of their respective systems.  Khrushchev's closing statement was, "Your grandchildren will live under communism."  To which Nixon replied, "Your grandchildren will live in freedom."  

 

Unlike the silent Brezhnev (to the right of Nixon in the photo, looking as though he's already plotting his move against Khrushchev) who was unable to join in the debate due to zero English proficiency and no interpreter assigned, the dishwashing machine on display, a commodity absent from the USSR, de facto participated on Nixon's side as a harbinger of that future freedom -- at least from washing dishes by hand.  60 years later, 11% of the population of Russia do own that machine.  So it looks like Nixon's prophecy was somewhat more accurate. 

 

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

 

Happy We Just Took Alaska Day

On October 18, 1867, the U.S. formally takes possession of Alaska after purchasing the territory from Russia for $7.2 million, or less than two cents an acre. The Alaska purchase comprised 586,412 square miles, about twice the size of Texas, and was championed by William Henry Seward, the enthusiastically expansionist secretary of state under President Andrew Johnson.

[silent thunder]

How utterly alien... the 'whole notion of 'ownership' of 'any thing' is absurd in the extreme to me.  and 'ownership of land?!' its presence as a concept in our cultural mind is to me a symptomatic expression of a deep, horrifying species wide mental delusion. 

 

In my experience of life, if i own one thing, it's my presence. 

 

And even my presence, of which this body is the main evidence thereof... i suffer no illusion that 'i' own this body. 

Not if ownership implies meaningful control.  But the awareness of my presence... this is always with 'me'.

 

Everything, anthing else?  Preposterous.

 

My birth, my growth to manhood, my daily body sensations, digestive processes, hearing, eyesight, hormone production, neurochemical interactions... pfft... i own this?  My emotions, the majority of my thoughts?  Even my awareness may be coopted and coerced, or sublimated at times.  

 

Anyone who can stand on the land and say 'I  own this because i paid paper money to get this paper deed that says I own it.'  *head shakingly lost*

 

When in reality the paper money paid by 'the owner', created influence among the people who wrote the paper deed.  These people are connected to and have access to the 'State Sanctioned Gang' (military/police) who can use violence legally so long as they 'uphold the law'. 

 

And thus, in order to initiate any level of atrocity for whatever means one may desire... one merely needs to 'make it legal' and then it will not only be carried out, but if opposed by anyone, that one may be declared 'unpatriotic' and persecuted by same process...

 

Deeply sick is the human notion of ownership to me.  One of our most disturbing traits.

 

 

I contend two of the most remarkably and horrifically impacting events of human history to our overall arching storyline... were the conceptualization of land ownership and (taxes required to be paid in order to live on said land) and the concept of paper money. 

 

Nauseous stuff.  Deeply unsettling in its inherently and seemingly unquestioningly unconscious loyal adoption of it in all 'civilized' cultures.  Funny how deeply uncivilized civilization seems to me.

 

[silent thunder]

Animals outline their territories with their excretions.

Humans outline their territories by ink excretions on paper.
~  Robert Anton Wilson

 

Every political border represents the point where two rival gangs

eventually grew tired of killing each other and agreed to stop.

(paraphrased)

[old3bob]

Many native peoples of ancient times (who did not have paper money) also fought and killed each other on horrific scales!  Imagine the ancient Hawaiians who lived in a very plentiful and moderate paradise killing each other left and right until they were more or less unified under King Kamehameha.  Anyway I submit that various forms of co-operation per forms of government related to sharing natural resource's and promoting livable, decent norms among people are not inherently corrupt they just and often become that way without very wise, careful and humane people keeping up same.

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

Many native peoples of ancient times (who did not have paper money) also fought and killed each other on horrific scales!  Imagine the ancient Hawaiians who lived in a very plentiful and moderate paradise killing each other left and right until they were more or less unified under King Kamehameha.  Anyway I submit that various forms of co-operation per forms of government related to sharing natural resource's and promoting livable, decent norms among people are not inherently corrupt they just and often become that way without very wise, careful and humane people keeping up same.

 

I am not familiar with ancient Hawaiian history, but elsewhere, kings, with the help of their historians, liked to retell and rewrite history and make up stories about how bad it was before they came, how base and murderous and miserable everyone was before they made everyone peaceful and happy and civilized, their only purpose in life of course.  So I would take those narratives with a grain of salt the size of Mount Everest.

 

I am familiar with the state of affairs in Alaska though.  At the time of the first European contact, when Russian explorers arrived in 1741, native peoples had been living there in peace for 14,000 years.  In the harshest of environments where everything was scarce -- without dying out, killing each other, or invading their neighbors' lands.  It's the same story everywhere...  you could insert "Australia" or "the Americas" or any place on the globe, it's always the same story. 

 

It started with traders, who at first just peacefully cheated the natives out of their livelihood -- the people they encountered, from the accounts I read, "were so primitive that they didn't know how to lie," and consequently didn't suspect the newcomers of lying because it wasn't part of their cognitive frame of reference.  The newcomers rejoiced -- it was easier to manipulate those innocents than anyone could imagine, because they fucking believed everything they were told!  They were used to hearing the truth from each other, they had no immunity to deception. 

 

Then the newcomers proceeded to extract their goods without bothering with excuses anymore.  Hostages and slaves were taken, families split and forced out of their villages.  Some populations were promptly destroyed by Old World diseases against which they had no immunity -- e.g. 80% of Aleuts within two generations.  And then organized religion took care of demolishing the ancient cultural traditions of the "heathens."  And then dietary laws arrived -- they were forced to learn to eat bread or else starve or get executed (they never ate grains before), and were introduced to alcohol for which they also had no immunity (or rather, lacked certain enzymes that allow the long-drinking populations to process their alcohol without necessarily becoming alcoholics) so alcoholism became rampant among survivors.  Such great blessings.  Of course the perpetrators tell the story differently...  

[Taomeow]

In the Soviet times, there was a joke everybody knew.  A journalist interviews a Chukchi (a native of both Chukotka, which Russia retained, and Alaska which it sold).

 

"How did your people live before the revolution, under capitalism?"

"We lived very badly.  We only knew two feelings -- cold and hunger."

"And how do your people live after the revolution, under socialism?"

"We live very well.  We now know three feelings!  Cold, hunger, and deep moral satisfaction."

 

The joke was based on the cliche often used by the party leaders who always reported this and that "with a feeling of deep moral satisfaction."    

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

I am not familiar with ancient Hawaiian history, but elsewhere, kings, with the help of their historians, liked to retell and rewrite history and make up stories about how bad it was before they came, how base and murderous and miserable everyone was before they made everyone peaceful and happy and civilized, their only purpose in life of course.  So I would take those narratives with a grain of salt the size of Mount Everest.

 

I am familiar with the state of affairs in Alaska though.  At the time of the first European contact, when Russian explorers arrived in 1741, native peoples had been living there in peace for 14,000 years.  In the harshest of environments where everything was scarce -- without dying out, killing each other, or invading their neighbors' lands.  It's the same story everywhere...  you could insert "Australia" or "the Americas" or any place on the globe, it's always the same story. 

 

It started with traders, who at first just peacefully cheated the natives out of their livelihood -- the people they encountered, from the accounts I read, "were so primitive that they didn't know how to lie," and consequently didn't suspect the newcomers of lying because it wasn't part of their cognitive frame of reference.  The newcomers rejoiced -- it was easier to manipulate those innocents than anyone could imagine, because they fucking believed everything they were told!  They were used to hearing the truth from each other, they had no immunity to deception. 

 

Then the newcomers proceeded to extract their goods without bothering with excuses anymore.  Hostages and slaves were taken, families split and forced out of their villages.  Some populations were promptly destroyed by Old World diseases against which they had no immunity -- e.g. 80% of Aleuts within two generations.  And then organized religion took care of demolishing the ancient cultural traditions of the "heathens."  And then dietary laws arrived -- they were forced to learn to eat bread or else starve or get executed (they never ate grains before), and were introduced to alcohol for which they also had no immunity (or rather, lacked certain enzymes that allow the long-drinking populations to process their alcohol without necessarily becoming alcoholics) so alcoholism became rampant among survivors.  Such great blessings.  Of course the perpetrators tell the story differently...  

 

well there are many  examples of native peoples getting along and also of them being in bloody wars with each other.

For instance many of the north American Indian nations once had serious wars or at least battles with each other,  and so did many of the south American native peoples.  (at different times in history)  There are also many accounts of early tribes on the European continent at war, wars among native peoples on the African continent including those of Egyptian history, wars among Mediterranean or early middle eastern area peoples,  etc., etc..  

Edited October 18, 2020 by old3bob

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

How utterly alien... the 'whole notion of 'ownership' of 'any thing' is absurd in the extreme to me.  and 'ownership of land?!' its presence as a concept in our cultural mind is to me a symptomatic expression of a deep, horrifying species wide mental delusion. 

 

In my experience of life, if i own one thing, it's my presence. 

 

And even my presence, of which this body is the main evidence thereof... i suffer no illusion that 'i' own this body. 

Not if ownership implies meaningful control.  But the awareness of my presence... this is always with 'me'.

 

Everything, anthing else?  Preposterous.

 

My birth, my growth to manhood, my daily body sensations, digestive processes, hearing, eyesight, hormone production, neurochemical interactions... pfft... i own this?  My emotions, the majority of my thoughts?  Even my awareness may be coopted and coerced, or sublimated at times.  

 

Anyone who can stand on the land and say 'I  own this because i paid paper money to get this paper deed that says I own it.'  *head shakingly lost*

 

When in reality the paper money paid by 'the owner', created influence among the people who wrote the paper deed.  These people are connected to and have access to the 'State Sanctioned Gang' (military/police) who can use violence legally so long as they 'uphold the law'. 

 

And thus, in order to initiate any level of atrocity for whatever means one may desire... one merely needs to 'make it legal' and then it will not only be carried out, but if opposed by anyone, that one may be declared 'unpatriotic' and persecuted by same process...

 

Deeply sick is the human notion of ownership to me.  One of our most disturbing traits.

 

 

I contend two of the most remarkably and horrifically impacting events of human history to our overall arching storyline... were the conceptualization of land ownership and (taxes required to be paid in order to live on said land) and the concept of paper money. 

 

Nauseous stuff.  Deeply unsettling in its inherently and seemingly unquestioningly unconscious loyal adoption of it in all 'civilized' cultures.  Funny how deeply uncivilized civilization seems to me.

 

 

 

Have you read   'Man Friday'  ?   You would love it !   Its the Robinson Crusoe story, but this time, written from Friday's perspective .    chapter called ' In which I learn the meaning of 'yours' and 'mine',  an hilarious , poignant, enlightening, sad and revealing chapter , like many others in the book .   Friday spends some time in meditation on the issue; its a real riddle for him ; " What could it be , what could be for only one person and no one one else ?   .... A man's death ?  No, that is for the whole tribe  .....     

 

Crusoe tries to help ;   " That hat you are wearing  is MY hat , it is NOT Friday's hat , it 'belongs' to Master . "

 

" Oh , but Master , the hat does not know that , it sits on Fridays head very well, and it shades his face from the Sun, just like it does to Master . Why should not Friday use the hat as well  ? "

 

" Because its MINE  !    Its special to ME not you !  I OWN it ! "

 

"  Does it have some type of Master magic in it  ... "

 

"  I told you before,, that native superstitious stuff .... wait ... yes, thats it .... its FULL of Master magic , it will make you like Master ! "

 

 Friday takes off the hat and flings it on the ground .

 

Crusoe :  "   And the coat "   ... he flings that off ... "And my goatskin umbrella . "   ... he throws it away .

 

(next chapter 'How I learnt to wear trousers and become a Christian ' )

 

Spoiler

 

 

)

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Animals outline their territories with their excretions.

Humans outline their territories by ink excretions on paper.
~  Robert Anton Wilson

 

Every political border represents the point where two rival gangs

eventually grew tired of killing each other and agreed to stop.

(paraphrased)

 

Wilson also said  ;

 

Animals defend  their territories by throwing their excretions at others . -  Humans defend their territories by throwing canisters of explosives and toxic chemicals at each other

[Taomeow]

44 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

well there are many  examples of native peoples getting along and also of them being in bloody wars with each other.

For instance many of the north American Indian nations once had serious wars or at least battles with each other,  and so did many of the south American native peoples.  (at different times in history)  There are also many accounts of early tribes on the European continent at war, wars among native peoples on the African continent including those of Egyptian history, wars among Mediterranean or early middle eastern area peoples,  etc., etc..  

 

Have you ever come across my thread titled "Sumer: the "black-headed" vs. the "red-faced?"  Don't want to repeat myself, both me and the (mostly wonderful) contributors (if you jump over a few attempts at derailing by now-defunct trolls -- though a bit of the legacy seems to have been left behind, the picture that comes up when I post the link below was supplied by one of them) -- 

 

as I was saying, we were going in some (occasionally considerable) depth over the civilized vs. indigenous/tribal/original human differences in modus operandi and social dynamics in early history that resulted in the former completely destroying the latter and creating the world as we know it.  Something that didn't happen in at least 1.5 million prior years of our co-existence with each other  (or 2.5 million if you prefer the latest assessments).   

  

 

[silent thunder]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Wilson also said  ;

 

Animals defend  their territories by throwing their excretions at others . -  Humans defend their territories by throwing canisters of explosives and toxic chemicals at each other

Very true.

 

George Carlin equated bombs and bullets (which are dick shaped) to being created because of pants and men with small cocks.

 

If we suspect someone else, might have a bigger cock... we might just have to bomb them, with bombs, shaped like dicks... fired by guns, shaped like dicks, by men with small cocks, wearing pants...

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Have you ever come across my thread titled "Sumer: the "black-headed" vs. the "red-faced?"  Don't want to repeat myself, both me and the (mostly wonderful) contributors (if you jump over a few attempts at derailing by now-defunct trolls -- though a bit of the legacy seems to have been left behind, the picture that comes up when I post the link below was supplied by one of them) -- 

 

as I was saying, we were going in some (occasionally considerable) depth over the civilized vs. indigenous/tribal/original human differences in modus operandi and social dynamics in early history that resulted in the former completely destroying the latter and creating the world as we know it.  Something that didn't happen in at least 1.5 million prior years of our co-existence with each other  (or 2.5 million if you prefer the latest assessments).   

  

 

 

I have not been to that thread...but I agree that ancient man was probably way to busy (and small in numbers) trying to survive the elements and wild creatures to have much occasion for warring with each other; if that is what you mean?  Having said that there was still resource competition that must have sometimes turned deadly since those ancients also had weapons that were used for more than just hunting.   (per ancient human bones found with weapon injury marks or crushed skulls. Also how far back we want to go in time and place to determine or draw a line as to what indigenous/tribal peoples means seems rather debatable)