Are there evil master?

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

There is no duality, you can have good without evil.  We only compare the two because they are opposites.  They arent reliant upon one another to reach understanding.

 

A view that is cute--but doesn't hold light when challenging Taoist philosophy on a Taoist site. 

 

You might be referring to polarity more than duality. 

[helpfuldemon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvjUnqBYeTA

[freeform]

Good and evil are emotionally charged. We ‘love’ good and ‘hate’ evil... From a sort of societal or political perspective this sounds reasonable. But from a spiritual cultivation perspective this is problematic.

 

When instead you approach it through a calm, equanimous mind you can start to see the underlying causal relationships in the full spectrum of what ‘greed’ really means.
 

You can start to see the utility underlying greed... if you didn’t have this greed impulse you simply wouldn’t survive in a world of very limited resources... But in the context of spiritual cultivation, you can also see how it creates a division in self and means it’s impossible to get very far... and that as your internal power grows how this impulse can become inflamed and subvert your actions and cause harm to self and others... etc

 

Things are always more complex and nuanced than our thinking, categorising mind likes to make...  

[welkin]

mind mind mind mind mind. act act act act act.

 

Is there anyone who knows anything that didn't come from someone or somewhere else? what a miracle that would be.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by welkin

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Good and evil are emotionally charged. We ‘love’ good and ‘hate’ evil... From a sort of societal or political perspective this sounds reasonable. But from a spiritual cultivation perspective this is problematic.

 

When instead you approach it through a calm, equanimous mind you can start to see the underlying causal relationships in the full spectrum of what ‘greed’ really means.
 

You can start to see the utility underlying greed... if you didn’t have this greed impulse you simply wouldn’t survive in a world of very limited resources... But in the context of spiritual cultivation, you can also see how it creates a division in self and means it’s impossible to get very far... and that as your internal power grows how this impulse can become inflamed and subvert your actions and cause harm to self and others... etc

 

Things are always more complex and nuanced than our thinking, categorising mind likes to make...  

 

“A villain acts, a hero reacts. Heroes are loved in some points of history until they are recast as villains, villains always believe that they are heroes in their own minds. So if I must be called a villain to challenge the power structures and status quo, then let me be evil.” - Marilyn Manson

[welkin]

I wonder if God watches us from above and wonders, how foolish can man be believing in things they don't even question the origins of. But instead relies on his limited perspective and mind to not only determine truth, but to also create absolute intelligent philosophies that sound true to every other man.

 

I for one am guilty as charged.

[Earl Grey]

I wonder why anti-intellectualism is seen by some as a sign of possessing greater intelligence. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Earl Grey

[old3bob]

we human beings with various degrees of conscience and consciousness  may do anti-dharmic, ignorant or even willfully evil things at different times in our lives yet we can end up making amends and corrections when karma comes knocking -- such a dynamic does not apply to the the far darker demonic evil which can not be be reasoned with,  nor can it be  put into or compared with any kind of human context with clever and well reasoned philosophy, and to do so is dangerous folly... such evil has only one blinding need and that is to rend, crush, torment and or kill without conscience driven by an insatiable black-hole like hunger that must be fed without being particular, thus it gives no quarter to its prey;  whereas most human beings in conflict with another human being can give quarter, or consider a truce if it were possible and or of mutual benefit in some way.  Btw, Eastern and most religions have Dharma protectors mentioned in their teachings and such beings stand with indomitable will against the demonic forces, for an indomitable will anchored in piercing truth is the only power the demonic forces shy away from!  

Edited July 10, 2020 by old3bob

[welkin]

it's not anti intellectualism, it's anti- insurmountable emphasis on intellect. Because it is the very intelle or (hypothesis), that is so easily penetrable, that reveals one's level of consciousness. To live through intelle is to live through hypothesis, and yet one does not live through it as hypothesis, and instead as knowing. Which then not only limits their level of consciousness, but also reveals to a conscious individual what level of conscious opportunity that person has. Then what describes or gives a person that consciousness? How can one know if one only knows one way to know? 

[welkin]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

we human beings with various degrees of conscience and consciousness  may do anti-dharmic, ignorant or even willfully evil things at different times in our lives yet we can end up making amends and corrections when karma comes knocking -- such a dynamic does apply to the the far darker demonic evil which can not be be reasoned with,  nor can it be  put into or compared to any kind of human context with clever and well reasoned philosophy, and to do so is dangerous folly... such evil has only one blinding need and that is to rend, crush and devour without conscience per an insatiable black-hole like hunger that must be fed without hesitation, thus it gives no quarter to its prey;  whereas most human beings in conflict with another human being would give quarter, or consider a truce if it were possible and or of mutual benefit in some way.  Btw, Eastern and most religions have Dharma protectors mentioned in their teachings and such beings stand with indomitable will against the demonic forces, for an indomitable will anchored in piercing truth is the only power the demonic forces shy away from!  

 

This sounds true. Lots of that has been witnessed already. So much so that it oozed into every corner of the earth including this forum. It even hurt people for no reason at all but what you describe. But maybe, justice still exists. and it has its own divine timing. Who knows.

[Earl Grey]

9 minutes ago, welkin said:

it's not anti intellectualism, it's anti- insurmountable emphasis on intellect. Because it is the very intelle or (hypothesis), that is so easily penetrable, that reveals one's level of consciousness. To live through intelle is to live through hypothesis, and yet one does not live through it as hypothesis, and instead as knowing. Which then not only limits their level of consciousness, but also reveals to a conscious individual what level of conscious opportunity that person has. Then what describes or gives a person that consciousness? How can one know if one only knows one way to know? 

 

Sounds like conflating a hypothesis with assumed parochialism and forgetting that the mind abstracts and inducts to fill in the gaps. Often these can lead to independently arriving at similar conclusions or mere conjecture, but nobody is limited to hypothesis as the word itself posits a pre-existing idea.

 

Good is explained relative to what is not good. Good is relative. Evil is relative. 
 

The mind only projects what it can abstract and even without a hypothesis, it has its own independent analysis based on survival and experimentation, cost-benefits, knowingly and unknowingly. The species deems what is “evil” and “good” beginning with this, then as abstractions become more complex, it posits relative to what is perceived and presumed.

 

Nothing to do with being “limited by hypothesis.”

[welkin]

12 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Sounds like conflating a hypothesis with assumed parochialism and forgetting that the mind abstracts and inducts to fill in the gaps. Often these can lead to independently arriving at similar conclusions or mere conjecture, but nobody is limited to hypothesis as the word itself posits a pre-existing idea.

 

Good is explained relative to what is not good. Good is relative. Evil is relative. 
 

The mind only projects what it can abstract and even without a hypothesis, it has its own independent analysis based on survival and experimentation, cost-benefits, knowingly and unknowingly. The species deems what is “evil” and “good” beginning with this, then as abstractions become more complex, it posits relative to what is perceived and presumed.

 

Nothing to do with being “limited by hypothesis.”

 

C14: from Latin intellectus comprehension, intellect, from intellegere to understand; see intelligence.

 

Seems to be coming from ones ability to see it, not know it. therefore if someone can seem more intelligent than you, then you would believe that that is knowledge or truth, even though you don't know its origin. hence a hypothesized belief.

 

"Good is explained relative to what is not good. Good is relative. Evil is relative. " that is a belief rather than a truth, because that idea is not known unless one is taught that, thinks that or believes that. rather than experiencing that.

 

If one's survival relies on doing 'evil' or what would be considered that. For the sake of simplicity, meaning killing or stealing. Then one may not be any more intelligent than an animal. Or lacks the creativity of consciousness to find another way. 99% of the time there is another way, yet more than 50% of the time the former action is taken. because it's easier. To which then there is a predator and a prey. Yet we humans like to believe we are above animals

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by welkin

[Zhongyongdaoist]

6 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

I wonder why anti-intellectualism is seen by some as a sign of possessing greater intelligence. 

 

Actually it is  complex process with its its modern roots in the revival of Epicureanism starting around 1600 and developing within the context of the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation. It develops in a complex way with an important inflection point around 1800 and emerges in the Nineteenth Century as the conflict between "reductionism" the foundation of modern intellectualism and Romanticism, the rebellion against materialistic science and ideological reductionism.  Explicating this would require a lengthy exposition which I don't have time for, but if someone is actually interested I can recommend some books that would be helpful in understanding the process.

 

ZYD

[Earl Grey]

Just now, welkin said:

 

C14: from Latin intellectus comprehension, intellect, from intellegere to understand; see intelligence.

 

Seems to be coming from ones ability to see it, not know it. therefore if someone can seem more intelligent than you, then you would believe that that is knowledge or truth, even though you don't know its origin. hence a hypothesized belief.

 

"Good is explained relative to what is not good. Good is relative. Evil is relative. " that is a belief rather than a truth, because that idea is not known unless one is taught that, thinks that or believes that. rather than experiencing that.

 

If one's survival relies on doing 'evil' or what would be considered that. For the sake of simplicity, meaning killing or stealing. Then one may not be any more intelligent than an animal. Or lacks the creativity of consciousness to find another way. 99% of the time there is another way, yet more than 50% of the time the former action is taken. because it's easier.

 

Misquoting a definition to suit your hypothesis—straw man.

 

Also: look into anthropology and child psychology—babies are already inherently compassionate and altruistic, as it is the default state and also parallel to Confucius believing man is inherently good. There are more benefits from helping others and forming a hive mind and collective good rather than tribal mentality of separatism.

[Daniel]

@Scholar,

 

I have not read the other replies, however, I am guessing by scrolling past the others who have contributed that you have been given excellent information and guidance.

 

Here's mine:

 

You asked:

"Are there evil master?

People that actually posses giant amounts of spiritual powers and uses it for the evil ?

Is there such a thing ?

Or evil people lack the work ethic to get to this level?

 

Each one is a good question all on its own.  However, grouped together, there is one simple answer that I can offer, maybe?

 

The answer is no.  There are no evil masters, if I understand precisely what you are talking about.  None.  But it's not due to lack of work ethic, it's a property inherent in The Dao.  Those who do evil are always building themselves a cage at the same time that they are performing evil deeds.  They don't know this, they cannot see the futility, the chain that keeps getting tighter and tighter constricting like one of those "chinese finger traps". 

 

It is the ultimate and most eternally ignorant thing to do.... Evil.  It's a trap.  It works just like the finger trap above. That's why I vote:  There are no evil masters.  They cannot be "masters" by definition.  They're evil deeds surround them and constrict them and the more they wriggle for freedom the tighter the binding becomes.

 

@Scholar, does that help answer your question?

 

Edit to add:  hopefully this info was not redundant to info provided from the others who replied.  I will go read them now.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Daniel

[welkin]

2 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Misquoting a definition to suit your hypothesis—straw man.

 

Also: look into anthropology and child psychology—babies are already inherently compassionate and altruistic, as it is the default state and also parallel to Confucius believing man is inherently good. There are more benefits from helping others and forming a hive mind and collective good rather than tribal mentality of separatism.

 

I'm confused as to where this contradicts anything i say. If anything i'm in agreement with half the paradox you just stated. can a hive mind only be good for few? or is a hive mind good for all naturally? whom decides it's good for all? The few that know it all? hmmmm

[Daniel]

On 7/7/2020 at 5:37 AM, freeform said:

So in this way sometimes when a person gains some freedom and power through internal practice, they discover all these subtle very selfish (if not malevolent) aspects within themselves... and if your path doesn’t teach you how to transform your nature - or at least abide strictly by a moral code - then it’s possible to let these malevolent, selfish aspects run the show... And so in this way internal practice can actually produce a malevolent action...

@Scholar...  THIS ^^^^

 

That's the best answer, imho.

[Daniel]

I agree with everyone here who is rendering the terms good and evil as dysfunctional.

 

I prefer the terms Zealot vs. Pious.

 

See below:

 

Zealot is a better description for the english word that is commonly used : Evil.

Pious is a better description for the english word that is commonly used  : Good.

 

Thoughts?

 

If that works for the OP, it might help a lot in understanding what's going on from a Daoist perspective.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Daniel

[welkin]

deception is naughty

 

Through terminology that can only be interpreted by one side.

 

wait, why is one of my eyes smaller than the other?

 

wait, why is Lady Gaga covering her right eye?

 

nvm. she just had an itch.

 

Hmmm, The doctor states everyone has an itch on that side.

 

Wait is that because it's smaller??

 

Wait, what was the point of this all again!??

 

Damnit,

 

See you next time on the next episode... of Dragon Ball Z

Edited July 8, 2020 by welkin

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, welkin said:

 

This sounds true. Lots of that has been witnessed already. So much so that it oozed into every corner of the earth including this forum. It even hurt people for no reason at all but what you describe. But maybe, justice still exists. and it has its own divine timing. Who knows.

 

universal justice does prevail in the long run because it is rooted in truth, an unbreakable inviolate truth of Spirit, whereas evil is only a stealing, dangerously corrupting thief with no root...  and I'd say that refutes the half baked idea of opposites but equals.

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, welkin said:

mind mind mind mind mind. act act act act act.

 

Is there anyone who knows anything that didn't come from someone or somewhere else? what a miracle that would be.

 

 

 

 

 

is this a trick question ?

 

What, are we supposed to know some things 'from the void ' ?     Even if I know something that comes from myself alone and no one else  ....  well, I am someone , so that doesnt count .  And anything outside my self is 'somewhere else' , so that doesnt count either .

 

or maybe you would like to rephrase the question ?

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, welkin said:

I wonder if God watches us from above and wonders, how foolish can man be believing in things they don't even question the origins of. But instead relies on his limited perspective and mind to not only determine truth, but to also create absolute intelligent philosophies that sound true to every other man.

 

I for one am guilty as charged.

 

Thats apparent !  

 

Did you question why you  '  wonder if God is watching you from above  '  ?

 

(I am not a big fan of that idea .... I am more the  .... 'in your face ' kind of rebel

 

Spoiler

 

 

 " .....   so ?

 

I got some sand in my swimmers   fer Gawd sakes  .... go mind your own business ! "

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Regarding evil masters

 

Lets not forget  GSMaster

 

 

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

'in your face ' kind of rebel

+1, me too.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Daniel

[welkin]

i wonder if what's happening in the world is evil. it would be nearly damn impossible to stop it huh? good thing it's only nearly impossible. but i feel like that's why the answer is yes, there are evil masters.