Is truth relative?

[Iskote]

On 7/15/2020 at 4:53 AM, helpfuldemon said:

Is truth relative?  Is it really all in the eye of the beholder?  Are there any absolutes, and if so, what are they based upon?

 

People can easily get them self into playing mind and word games; but, if they are wise, 

they will look both ways before crossing the street, they will be very careful when 

handling a knife or a gun, and they will try to avoid stepping off the edge of a high cliff. 

 

For practical purposes, truth is that which, to the best of our ability, holds to be invariably true when

subjected to sound and reasonable observation and tests. As awareness and understanding

increases, what is held to be true may sometimes be modified to fit the new observations and new understanding,

but we must adhere to whatever our current level of understanding indicates to us is true at any given point, or

we certainly risk walking off the edge of a high cliff to our own demise, so to speak.  Individuals or 

groups of people may hold to some differences in what they experience to be true, but a wise person learns

to clearly differentiate between what belief dictates to be true, and what holds to be true outside of any particular belief system. 

 

We should not hold rigidly to our current understanding, whatever that may be at any given point in time,

but we should respect and make use of our current understanding so as to try to avoid doing foolish and harmful things as much as we are able. 

 

Those who do foolish and harmful things, whether harmful to them self or harmful to others, will have 

to pay the price for their actions in one way or another, whether they realize it or not. 

In my own personal observation, the more a given individual's understanding and awareness increases, 

the less they will do harm to them self and to others. 

 

Beware of falling into the trap of endless mind and word games. 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Iskote

[Daniel]

On 7/15/2020 at 3:53 AM, helpfuldemon said:

Is truth relative?  Is it really all in the eye of the beholder?  Are there any absolutes, and if so, what are they based upon?

What does the DDJ say about it? 

 

I'm guessing it would say 'no'.  But I could be wrong...

 

Reality is subjective ( hence the word 'relative' )

Truth is objective.  ( not relative )

 

There is only one Truth in a similar manner that there is only one Eternal Dao.

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Daniel

[Cleansox]

3 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Good is to aid, to create, to nurture, to educate, to protect, to inspire.

 

Evil is to oppose, to destroy, to thwart, to deceive, to steal, to harm, to humiliate.

 

Congrats, nature is evil. 

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

 

There is only one Truth in a similar manner that there is only one Eternal Dao.

 

Can that Truth be named? 

[thelerner]

6 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Good is good, and Evil is evil- and we usually fail at the greatest good, though we believe we intend well, we are also prone to evil.  Such is our condition.  To be extraordinary is to be a master of good or evil, and that requires health and knowledge, and strength and power.  

The paradox is-  much evil is done in the name of Good.  You see that happening in Nationalism and sometimes religion.  Communism is beautiful in theory but in practice it quickly turns increasingly authoritarian. 

 

Often Wu-wei is best.  Doing nothing.  Respecting the actors.. letting them sort things out by themselves.  Messy but rules from above, even when benign, can backfire badly. 

 

Not always, devils are in the detail, but good action is flexible.

[Daniel]

21 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Can that Truth be named? 

I don't know, tbh.  However, I would refer you to my carefully worded statement:

 

"There is only one Truth in a similar manner that there is only one Eternal Dao."

 

"

[Cleansox]

I suspected that Truth would end up there, in the unmanifested, and not really being relevant in the manifested world. 

[ilumairen]

18 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Can that Truth be named? 

Playing along, I would name it “change.”

 

3 hours ago, Cleansox said:

I suspected that Truth would end up there, in the unmanifested, and not really being relevant in the manifested world. 

 

And if Truth is the dynamic, potential for, and (to the extent one is able) understanding of change, would this still be irrelevant in the manifest world?
 

Going Buddhist on you, do you have any particular thoughts on, or understanding of, “emptiness is form; form is emptiness?”

[ilumairen]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

I don't know, tbh.  However, I would refer you to my carefully worded statement:

 

"There is only one Truth in a similar manner that there is only one Eternal Dao."

 

"

Back to chapter 1, eh? 

 

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
     this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.

 

[old3bob]

which particular ray of light coming from the the sun is a true ray of light?

[Paradoxal]

On 7/15/2020 at 6:53 AM, helpfuldemon said:

Is truth relative?

It depends. 

 

On 7/15/2020 at 6:53 AM, helpfuldemon said:

Is it really all in the eye of the beholder?

It depends.

 

On 7/15/2020 at 6:53 AM, helpfuldemon said:

Are there any absolutes, and if so, what are they based upon?

It depends. 

 

"There are no truths, this statement included" is a good topic to internally ponder to find the answer you are looking for. If you want a wordy and inadequate answer, then you are looking at the finger instead of the moon. The same can be said for good and evil, really. 

[old3bob]

"Do You Swear to Tell the Truth, the Whole Truth and Nothing But the Truth?"

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, ilumairen said:

Playing along, I would name it “change.”

Oh, very nice... Well played.

 

4 hours ago, ilumairen said:

“emptiness is form; form is emptiness?”

{ ... attempting to understand ... }

The map is not the territory?

[old3bob]

emptiness is so jam packed, but not to worry it still has room for peanut butter... (edited)

Edited July 21, 2020 by old3bob

[natural]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

"Do You Swear to Tell the Truth, the Whole Truth and Nothing But the Truth?"

I have been known to swear,

 

(in the olden days use cuss words...)

 

and leaving nothing out may both take some time,

 

and shock all but the most :

 

Mature,

 

Liberal,**

 

**(traveling in the 70's,

with my not so liberal Aunt and Uncle

on a highway in Arizona,

during Spring break,

a car full of youngsters,

-damn carpetbaggers mind you-,

passed my uncle's car. 

and whilst doing so

both

the front seat passenger

and rear seat passengers,

dropped their drawers 

shining a few full moons ..

Uncle wrestled a pistol,

a large caliber revolver,

from what we called the

"glove box"

my uncle,

grabbing the gun,

and drawing down,

on the miscreants, 

taught me high speed pursuit

techniques to avoid...

and added to my vocabulary*

encouraged a new 

unofficial land speed record?

 

Well travelled,

 

Unapologetic,

 

*A major part of my education on western swear words, and how not to drive.

Edited July 21, 2020 by natural

[old3bob]

As young immortal teenage surfers we used to moon people while traveling the highways on the way to the beach;  (with girls who happened to be in nearby cars giving mixed reactions ranging from applause to disgust)  so could that mean  I will get mooned five times per karma in a future life  for every one time I pulled the stunt in this life?  Some say karma gains mass as it rolls downhill if you don't nip it in the bud -- so maybe I could put a sign in my car window saying, "please moon me now instead of 5 times later"...

Edited July 21, 2020 by old3bob

[ilumairen]

20 hours ago, Daniel said:

{ ... attempting to understand ... }

The map is not the territory?

To my way of thinking, it is a Buddhist way of pointing to the inseparability of mystery and manifest.

 

I quite like this “map is not the territory,” so very much like words are not the experience they are utilized to express.

[Daniel]

13 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

To my way of thinking, it is a Buddhist way of pointing to the inseparability of mystery and manifest.

Pardon the question, but, are you Buddhist?

[ilumairen]

13 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Pardon the question, but, are you Buddhist?

No, I’m not Buddhist, although there are aspects I resonate with, and I do a number of Bön practices which I find beneficial.

[old3bob]

On 7/22/2020 at 8:14 AM, ilumairen said:

 

" I quite like this “map is not the territory,” so very much like words are not the experience they are utilized to express."

 

 

I suggest not  limiting the power of certain spoken words from certain sources and more so with sung words for they too can be very much a part of an experience (and in some cases be key) besides just being used as conceptual or intellectual maps or exercises...

Edited July 23, 2020 by old3bob

[old3bob]

for instance the universe or multiverse would not exist unless its weaving into being with sacred song was not included... Om, (silence and roaring)...a weaving of the first and purest prana/light into further forms.

 

(which is my witness)

Edited July 23, 2020 by old3bob

[dwai]

On 7/15/2020 at 5:53 AM, helpfuldemon said:

Is truth relative?  Is it really all in the eye of the beholder?  Are there any absolutes, and if so, what are they based upon?

In order to understand that, we have to consider the following --

• What we generally consider as knowledge, is on the basis of a framework of categorization.
• A framework of categorization is essentially a way to identify and label phenomena (things, emotions, experiences, people, etc) -- let's call it a Categorical Framework. 
• This categorical framework varies on the basis of many criteria, such as genetics, region, environment, culture, species, etc. Some things we inherit from our biology. Others can vary widely. 
• There are only truth-claims in the context of categorical frameworks. Two frameworks can produce completely different interpretations/inferences about the same observed phenomenon. Take TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) vs Western Medicine for example. Each has a very different approach, and often quite radically different worldviews (categorical frameworks). Is that to say that TCM is wrong and Western Medicine is right? Or vice versa? No...we can't, because ymmv depending on what the nature of your ailment is. 
• If we start considering cultures, etc different from those we consider our native ones, there will be radically diverse perspectives. 

[welkin]

On 7/18/2020 at 11:28 PM, helpfuldemon said:

 

If truth is relative, and cultural bias, then that sort of defeats the law of karma and reincarnation, no?

 

True Truth is not relative. Relative and culturally biased truth, is relative and cultural biased truth. Do you know the law of karma and reincarnation? Or is all we know about them what's been written about?
 

[helpfuldemon]

Im torn.  I believe that if there is reincarnation, the karma we carry is based on my truth and whether I obeyed it or not.  Im also a believer in a social absolute regarding another persons liberties and health and property.   If I looked at Nature, Id say there is no karma, but I believe human life is granted a higher ability by an outside source; God is the mind, and with our minds we can know.  And should we know, we should see what is necessary for survival, and what is good.

[welkin]

i like this playground. Great opportunity to sharpen one's claws.

 

How do you know god's in the mind. you just said that human life is granter higher ability by an outside source. that's contradicting. How do you know your truth is your truth. what if your truth isn't your truth? So basically not obeying your truth, could mean not obeying someone else's truth. But you said your karma is based on that. Are you saying that your karma comes as a form of punishment from an outside source, who's truth you did not obey?

 

hmmmm