Is truth relative?

[helpfuldemon]

Thats just it, I cant decide if its my truth or Gods.  I say outside source meaning another entity or organization, but its within us as well

[welkin]

Depends which God you're talking about. Keep in mind God is only a word in order to communicate across what we believe is that source. The god that most worship and give thanks to is not the true source. That being said, God's truth and your truth are one and the same. However, it isn't if the one who's reading this message hasn't found the truth within. 'He who has ears to hear, let him hear. '

[helpfuldemon]

I have my truth, and since its all God, it is Gods truth as well, but I really believe there is a higher truth than the one most people follow.  Perhaps then it is a combination of truths that our next place is based upon, something I am not convinced we get.

[welkin]

How can you know that your truth is true truth? have you given yourself up? have you given up your mind? That's the only way to true truth.

 

That being said, if you are willing to accept the truth imposed by others, that includes own as well. That's okay too. There's nothing inherently wrong with choosing what you choose. Only cause and effect.

 

The mind cannot observe. Only remember. Give up the mind, and you will discover truth.

Edited July 24, 2020 by welkin

[helpfuldemon]

Actually, I am of no mind, and I see that it depends upon what a person lives for, and what they will die for, and therein lies the actual truth- the act of living and survival.  From here we gather wisdom, and can declare what is true about our ability to survive in Nature.  Putting the passions aside, one can see clearly what is required for a species that is reliant not only on Nature, but one another.  Of course, things branch out all over the place, and we invent mighty tools and ideas to aid us, and in these things, sometimes the survival mechanism is in jeopardy.  

[welkin]

2 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

God is the mind, and with our minds we can know. 

 

26 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

Actually, I am of no mind, and I see that it depends upon what a person lives for

 

living and survival is relative to what you were taught is to live and survive. Even the things that you think are required to live between one another has been fabricated.

 

ironically, it seems that you are furthering the use of the mind in how one needs to understand what you are writing. The writing itself is very mind driven. However, if one wants to, they can take themselves out of the mind state and read or hear things without the unnecessary use of mind. Which is what an awakened group of humans will learn to do.

 

In fact maybe you're aware of this. But those who choose to deceive, will create a maze into their ideas and philosophies, so complex making it impossible for an individual to comprehend and develop. It creates a mind state of awareness, where it becomes about memorizing information and over analysis to the point where their mind and intelligence is their awareness, creating the complete opposite of consciousness. But instead a mind driven robot.

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by welkin

[helpfuldemon]

30 minutes ago, welkin said:

 

 

living and survival is relative to what you were taught is to live and survive. Even the things that you think are required to live between one another has been fabricated.

 

 

 

I dont view this as that complex.  As I stated, it depends on what you live for.  It seems obvious what we need to survive, when you think about Nature and hunger, shelter, medicine- the fact that nearly no one can manage to take care of these things all by themselves, you can see clearly what it takes to survive.  Prosperity is a different story;  human beings have had to reconfigure things to get our ability to protect ourselves from Nature to advance.  We are not in a primitive state any longer, and Im certain that this is because of the daring and probably lawlessness of certain individuals and groups, though ideally, I imagine we could have done without them.  The trend in philosophy over the past few hundred years has been that human beings dont simply live to survive, and a new spirit has been developed, one that actually helps us not only in enhancing the spirit of our existence, but also economically.  Again, not certain this was necessary, but it definitely aided us, and betrayed us.

[welkin]

Things get less complex for the mind, as the mind gets more complex. But what you just wrote is now more simple.

 

I agree things probably would have gotten taken care of themselves by our very nature even if it took millennia.

 

"We are not in a primitive state any longer, and Im certain that this is because of the daring and probably lawlessness of certain individuals and groups, though ideally, I imagine we could have done without them. "

This is a bit of a contradicting statement. No?

 

I'm pretty sure we've known that our purpose has been more than to survive for several thousand years. How do you know a new spirit developed is a spirit. I would associate it more to a robotic unnatural specimen. And that has been developing for many hundred of years, if not thousands. We are now getting to the development of what you're talking about for the past few hundred years, to where a transitioning from what we had and were as a species is now almost entirely gone. What connects to this earth, world, universe will only be but a thought and an idea.

 

[CloudHands]

Great question.

 

There is an absolute necessity to separate two worlds : the world of scientific knowledge and the world of personal experience/beliefs.

 

For the first one there is no absolute truth, everything is and must be questionable. There is only probability. When a fact is proved a certain number of times it is considered statistically valid. That's the way you put someone on the moon.

 

For the second one (let's call it self-truth)... it's only up to personal conviction, belief. As people tend to (virtually) find what they want to find, we are prone to auto-validation/confirmation. This is a very natural/common way to behave and actually it limits us more than anything else.
Often when one considers he's achieved this or that he could go further, deeper.

 

I think it is very important not to rely on only one philosophy. Writings done by humans should not be considered sacred there is always a bias.

• the Dao De Jing was written before democracies, so its political sight is highly arguable.
• the US constitution was build by wealthy toward the right of individual possession, how fair and helpful on a larger scale it is is debatable.[/spoiler]

 

Different philosophies often consider different layers of the reality that are additives, together they allow some depth. My understanding is that one source will not provide "everything" it can provide a kind of simplification or certainty for someone who is looking for it.

 

And of course... same goes with personal experience.
Occurrences of things, facts are not equally distributed : there are series so you can't expect to embrace a representative vision of the world at any moment. Plus, the individual himself is fully biased by his/her roots as well as his/her will.

 

So the emptier you will be, the less bias you will have.

and when empty will you still have an opinion about all that ?

Should you have an opinion ? Maybe !

Layers !

Edited July 24, 2020 by CloudHands

[helpfuldemon]

5 hours ago, welkin said:

 

 

I'm pretty sure we've known that our purpose has been more than to survive for several thousand years. 

 

Id love to hear what you believe we have decided our purpose to be.  From my perspective, I believe that we have been aided by a greater power, whether it is the creator or not, I call it God.  The idea of God and our origin has been with us for a long time, and it is the cause of our curiosity and innovations.  Is this our purpose, to wonder and discover?  If a God has been aiding us, or did create us, then our purpose lies in its hands, and what reason do you suppose it has for us to exist?

[Daniel]

10 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

the karma we carry

... also includes the harm a child causes to the mother during child birth ...

 

No one is perfectly innocent; we all carry karma; everyone suffers and everyone causes suffering.

 

10 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

If I looked at Nature, Id say there is no karma

 

A seed does not harm the mother plant.  Also the amount of actual suffering any plant experiences is nominal regardless of what happens to it in nature.

 

An animal causes suffering when born and can do harm significant harm.  But it does not choose to do harm, it is choosing to survive.

 

The result is what appears to be a natural world without Karma.  But it is there.   The natural world appears the way it is (more life than death) only because the karmic effects of animals and plants are less harmful and less intentional.  Humans on the other hand do a lot of harm and intentionally cause a lot of suffering for themselves and others, therefore the Karmic ramifications are more overt and easy to see in Humans as compared to Nature.

10 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

God is the mind, and with our minds we can know.  And should we know, we should see what is necessary for survival, and what is good

Maybe someday...  maybe...

 

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Daniel

[welkin]

4 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Id love to hear what you believe we have decided our purpose to be.  From my perspective, I believe that we have been aided by a greater power, whether it is the creator or not, I call it God.  The idea of God and our origin has been with us for a long time, and it is the cause of our curiosity and innovations.  Is this our purpose, to wonder and discover?  If a God has been aiding us, or did create us, then our purpose lies in its hands, and what reason do you suppose it has for us to exist?

 

Even though the people working for that very power made this movie. They' still give you the truth because they believe there's nothing you can do to stop it or won't even discover what it truly is. but it's simple:

 

“The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.

"That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind."

 

What the purpose of that bondage is, is yet to be revealed. most play into that bondage no matter how small the role. To live for one's own peace and do nothing against that bondage is to live for that very purpose of bondage. They will never awaken. only be a part of a dream within a dream.

 

we didn't decide what our purpose to be. it was decided for us. 'a' god decided our purpose. Long time doesn't mean all time or forever. You're right, we got hijacked into certain curiosity and innovation. which means losing free will. i don't believe we naturally don't have it though.

 

people aren't willing to die to create a new world. and i'm not speaking about a physical death. Die before physical death and truth will slowly be revealed. As Mufasa says, "Remember"

 

 

[helpfuldemon]

So if we are slaves what kind of lifestyle do you profess that we should lead?  What changes would you like to see?

Edited July 24, 2020 by helpfuldemon

[welkin]

Many things would be the same. more than many things would be different. we would advance much faster in every facet for the positive progress of our evolution.

[helpfuldemon]

And what is your vision that we are evolving into?

[welkin]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

And what is your vision that we are evolving into?

 

We're not. We're devolving currently. I have no vision of what we would evolve into. That's up to us to decide.

[helpfuldemon]

So you would do some thing, some way, to lead us in some direction lol.  Well, youre no Martin Luther King.  Jokes aside, when I think about the idea of slave, I imagine it is being forced to do something we dont want to do, or to do something that does not pay us what we deserve.  In our society it seems that the lower paid people deserve more, but I think they can get by for the most part.  The only real unaffordable thing is health care, and I dont have the answer for that.  As far as being forced to do things, there are the needs of life- we must work to pay for our existence, and we must work to pay for the things we want and need.  We can get by without the wants, but the needs have to be met, and unless you can conceive of an economic system that rewards people for working that is better than what we have, we are stuck with what we have.  Nothing is going to come for free, unfortunately, so work must be performed.  What other things are we required to do?  I imagine it is things that have to do with our duties.  Well, our country doesnt require us to do a lick, so you cant really say that applies.  The laws prevent us from certain actions, did you have some in mind that you want to dismantle?  I dont really know how we are slaves, except out of necessity. From another perspective, we do seem to be bound to other peoples definition of beauty and grace.  I find that many people simply are not that brave when it comes to creating friendships and relationships.  They arent that creative, either.  Are we bound to some type of social standard for interaction?  To some degree, yes.  We are limited by the vision of our artists, and that includes the artists of religion.  These things define communication.  Does it work?  To some degree, yes, but I believe, again, that people lack bravery.  We also lack the ability to declare our intentions and desires.  And then of course there is failure, and the ensuing depression that prevents us from getting back on the horse.  

[welkin]

I won't do anything. i'm just passing by. You're right i think we're far too deep within the system to do anything about it. The only way to stop it is destruction. Maybe that's why advanced ancient civilizations fall. By some miracle, maybe it will be avoided and we can continue forward.

[helpfuldemon]

It depends on the civilization youre talking about.  Some of them simply had poor laws.  A lot of them were upset by other war faring monarchs and never had the chance to mature.  We live in a golden age, our tools and amenities have never served us so well.  We arent threatened by warlords and we hold our leaders accountable.  We also have plenty of freedom.  

[old3bob]

14 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

It depends on the civilization youre talking about.  Some of them simply had poor laws.  A lot of them were upset by other war faring monarchs and never had the chance to mature.  We live in a golden age, our tools and amenities have never served us so well.  We arent threatened by warlords and we hold our leaders accountable.  We also have plenty of freedom.  

 

the cup can be half full or half empty depending on where one is located....Btw. rose colored glasses can't protect one from a conventional or atomic blast.

Edited July 26, 2020 by old3bob

[Daniel]

23 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I dont really know how we are slaves

 

Well, you may not be... but many are.  Allow me to try to explain?

 

All the world religions can be ( in general ) separated into two main categories:  Those who seek inward, and those who seek outward.  The western approach is generally outward, where the locus of control is external to themselves.  The eastern approach is generally inward, where the locus of control is internal inside themselves.  Western devotes itself to a God or Gods, Eastern devotes itself to Realization of the Self.  In general

 

Devotion to a deity requires service.  I cannot think of a single example to the contrary.  Each deity has its own preferences and desires for its devotees.  And if a person chooses this deity and consents to the service/ritual/rules that govern conduct as prescribed by the deity then it doesn't appear as slavery.  It appears as servitude.  The only difference is consent.

 

If the individual has never been exposed to the underlying concepts of Self realization, or worse, they are taught to fear it, then that person is essentially in servitude without consent.  If the individual comes from a family where generation after generation is ignorant of the inward seeking religions and practices, then the result is essentially a culture of people who are being born into a family that is devoted to deity without the individual's consent.  This family/culture therefore propagates and advocates for slavery:  Service without consent.

 

Thus, without real consent, a child born into a family of "Believers" can be accurately described as a slave.  That's the logical chain that describes why a label of "slave" can be accurately applied to many modern spiritual people.  It's because their service is not offered freely.  Even if the individual thinks they are consenting to the religious practice, it's a false choice.  The choice is made without having full knowledge of all the choices and their ramifications ( if there are any at all ).   The result becomes very much like slavery when viewed from the outside.

 

{{ ... That said, there's an equally compelling argument that can be made that describes an ignorant fearful person as free and clear and happy.  It involves redirecting fear into awe and into excitement, and combining it with elements of love and surrender... etc.. }}

 

Does that help clarify this idea that many humans are slaves until they accomplish/achieve Self-realization?  Without knowledge and understanding of Self, an individual cannot make a true choice, a free choice, whether or not to be devoted to a deity.  Thus the many people who are not enlightened to themselves are not truly consenting to the preferences of their deity, and that makes them a slave out of ignorance and fear of retribution.

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Daniel

[welkin]

Maybe the rats will survive the destruction. Maybe not...

[Daniel]

... kinda like Muadib, the desert mouse, and His Fremen?

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Daniel

[welkin]

the question is not how or what actions are being done. it's why it's being done. perhaps the patterns will lead to the answer. let's keep playing

 

14 minutes ago, Daniel said:

... kinda like Muadib and His Fremen?

 

Oh yes, i remember this when i was in acting and film school.

[welkin]

this is a great speech