The taboo of enlightenment

[dwai]

5 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

And so the alternative is to not want?  And what is that like for you?  Is it cowardly to reject desire and responsibility?  What is the idealic life with your method?  Does it provide for a better society and civilization?  Is it enjoyable, or is that just the point, that it shouldnt be?  Is it worth living?  What has value from your perspective?  

Why not learn to distinguish between wants and needs. After one's needs are met, the wants can be turned towards more altruistic objectives...

 

Instead of, "I want that red Ferrari", why not make it, "I want to help my fellow human live better lives by helping them fulfill their needs."

You get the drift, I hope?  

 

Why do you equate life and worthiness of it thereof to it being "enjoyable" (I sense you conflate enjoyable and pleasurable). That's why I asked, what do we consider pleasurable? 

 

The criteria for "pleasure" varies. Some might find a life of sensual fulfillment pleasurable (wine, sex, material possessions). Others might find pleasure in more subtle things (art, music, food, etc). All of them are in the end a pursuit behind ephemeral things. 

[helpfuldemon]

Wanting to assist in people acquiring their needs is still wanting.  It still brings pleasure to see your Will being done.  Non attachment is only good for protecting ones self from the inevitable end of whatever one is enjoying.  The downside is that it creates apathy and that might lead to cruelty.  Better, I imagine, to want and to appreciate what we gain, and protect it, nurture it, and die defending it.  Some of what you are suggesting is submissive, and in life there is power and dominance, and submission and acceptance.  Which is more satisfying is up to you, but in the end, the strong lead and decide on the choices available to the submissive, and someone needs to be dominant and make decisions, and lead.  Is it struggle and suffering?  Yes, this path is more difficult.  It requires intelligence, courage, strength and creativity.  It is why these people get rewarded.  The reward for the submissive is a mild, less dangerous life with less conflict.  Pick your poison, the submissive dont get to enjoy the rewards of wanting and acquiring as much as the dominant.

[dwai]

1 minute ago, helpfuldemon said:

Wanting to assist in people acquiring their needs is still wanting.  It still brings pleasure to see your Will being done.  Non attachment is only good for protecting ones self from the inevitable end of whatever one is enjoying.  The downside is that it creates apathy and that might lead to cruelty.  Better, I imagine, to want and to appreciate what we gain, and protect it, nurture it, and die defending it.  Some of what you are suggesting is submissive, and in life there is power and dominance, and submission and acceptance.  Which is more satisfying is up to you, but in the end, the strong lead and decide on the choices available to the submissive, and someone needs to be dominant and make decisions, and lead.  Is it struggle and suffering?  Yes, this path is more difficult.  It requires intelligence, courage, strength and creativity.  It is why these people get rewarded.  The reward for the submissive is a mild, less dangerous life with less conflict.  Pick your poison, the submissive dont get to enjoy the rewards of wanting and acquiring as much as the dominant.

Okay, Good luck going down that path  

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

Change comes from people wanting and doing

When you look around, do you see things staying unchanging or are they constantly changing? Everything changes. Change is the reason for this world to exist. If there was no change, there would be no world. 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, CataclysmicSky said:

Who are you? You are Shiva, you are not.

Awareness is not you. While experiencing certain mystical experiences, it feels like you are awareness, but it is not ultimate. This feeling keeps fluctuating after a certain period of time.

 

Desire is not you. The more you keep fulfilling your desires, the more it keeps you bound into the inverted views, which people consider normal.

 

Contentment is what eliminates suffering. This doesn't mean that you go in a forest and live on timber and roots to make yourself look content. It means that whatever you do with your body and mind in this world, it is simply for the fun of it. You are not bound by the end results. They will not, in any way fulfill your desires.

 

If desires persist, the external decides your thoughts, emotions. You have become a slave to everything.

If desired are eliminated, there is no one to experience suffering.

 

the truest desire is more or less hidden in or under all desires which may sound like a major stretch because of how twisted desires can get...yet the desire for freedom in its deepest meaning, which in part includes an end to fear, gnawing doubts and related forms of suffering is a reaching out from our core or the core of being and also seeks a RETURN to the core.

Edited July 29, 2020 by old3bob

[Paradoxal]

50 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

Wanting to assist in people acquiring their needs is still wanting.  It still brings pleasure to see your Will being done.  Non attachment is only good for protecting ones self from the inevitable end of whatever one is enjoying.  The downside is that it creates apathy and that might lead to cruelty.  Better, I imagine, to want and to appreciate what we gain, and protect it, nurture it, and die defending it.  Some of what you are suggesting is submissive, and in life there is power and dominance, and submission and acceptance.  Which is more satisfying is up to you, but in the end, the strong lead and decide on the choices available to the submissive, and someone needs to be dominant and make decisions, and lead.  Is it struggle and suffering?  Yes, this path is more difficult.  It requires intelligence, courage, strength and creativity.  It is why these people get rewarded.  The reward for the submissive is a mild, less dangerous life with less conflict.  Pick your poison, the submissive dont get to enjoy the rewards of wanting and acquiring as much as the dominant.

 

Wanting to assist is different from assisting. Once you reach the pinnacle of what @dwai and @EmeraldHead are attempting to describe, there will be no "wants", only actions. In doing those actions without "wants", it becomes nonaction. It is like water being attracted by gravity down the hill. In this state, one becomes kind, strong, and generous without any attempts to follow through on internal or external "ideas". It is effortless. 

 

The best leaders are those whose subordinates complete a task and say "We have finished it! On our own, without any help!", despite being subtly led through the whole process without realizing it. Other options for leading certainly exist, but none hold nearly as much efficiency and compassion as those which are not remembered. 

 

There is no need to worry about pain or suffering, as such things are simply a part of life. When it rains, dance a raindance. When it's sunny, sunbathe. When it's snowing, build a snowman. Make the best of both pleasure and suffering, and you'll see the way. 

[old3bob]

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

When you look around, do you see things staying unchanging or are they constantly changing? Everything changes. Change is the reason for this world to exist. If there was no change, there would be no world. 

 

I also like the sayings in the T.T.C. Chapter 25: "There was something undefined and yet complete in itself, born before Heaven and Earth. Silent and boundless, Standing alone without change..."

[idiot_stimpy]

I very much appreciate adyashanti. I believe he is an enlightened teacher.

[Limahong]

On 7/27/2020 at 9:44 PM, dwai said:

As the Heart Sutra puts it, form is emptiness, emptiness is form.

 

 

 

 

[Limahong]

On 7/28/2020 at 3:53 AM, dwai said:

He's referring to a distinction between Enlightenment and having mystical experiences which are like enlightenment but may not be permanent.

 

What is distinct in Life and living?

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[Cleansox]

One slap in the face is distinct. 

 

Multiple slaps on the other hand tend to blur. 

[Limahong]

2 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

One slap in the face is distinct. 

 

Multiple slaps on the other hand tend to blur.

 

Hi Cleansox,

 

So what is the distinction between slap and slaps?

 

- Anand

 

 

[old3bob]

18 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Cleansox,

 

So what is the distinction between slap and slaps?

 

- Anand

 

 

 

 the sound from a one hand slapping makes less sound than that from two hands slapping...

[Limahong]

8 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

 the sound from a one hand slapping makes less sound than that from two hands slapping...

 

No sound with one hand? 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[old3bob]

1 minute ago, Limahong said:

 

No sound? 

 

 

just an attempted pun

[Limahong]

2 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

just an attempted pun

 

Thank you ~ for the pun and not a gun. 

 

 

[helpfuldemon]

1 hour ago, Paradoxal said:

 

Wanting to assist is different from assisting. Once you reach the pinnacle of what @dwai and @EmeraldHead are attempting to describe, there will be no "wants", only actions. In doing those actions without "wants", it becomes nonaction. It is like water being attracted by gravity down the hill. In this state, one becomes kind, strong, and generous without any attempts to follow through on internal or external "ideas". It is effortless. 

 

 

 

Yes I have been in this state, it is the culmination of understanding- one simply does.  In order to get there, depending on what one wants to understand, requires a lot of study and contemplation, experimentation.  First you have to defeat the false Ego, should you not agree with it, and more importantly, develop the true Ego; the one you desire to become.  

[Paradoxal]

9 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

Yes I have been in this state, it is the culmination of understanding- one simply does.  In order to get there, depending on what one wants to understand, requires a lot of study and contemplation, experimentation.  First you have to defeat the false Ego, should you not agree with it, and more importantly, develop the true Ego; the one you desire to become.  

I'm not entirely sure if what you refer to the "true Ego" as is any different from the "false Ego" which you claim must be defeated. The source of "action" in these cases is from something other than ego, afterall.

[Cleansox]

37 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

No sound with one hand? 

 

 

 

The unstruck sound 😁

 

(That would be a hindu reference for you who are unfamiliar to that tradition) 

[Limahong]

1 minute ago, Cleansox said:

The unstruck sound 😁

 

(That would be a hindu reference for you who are unfamiliar to that tradition) 

 

Thank you for sharing. 

 

[old3bob]

By Yutang Lin

 

"Teaching of "Non-form" indicates non-attachment to form.

Misinterpreted, it is adopted as holding to absence of form.

Abiding in no forms at all, one falls into the abyss of void.

Only in no grasping to form or non-form lies true liberation".

 

or its pretty easy to go off the deep end with certain terms...

[old3bob]

"void" is another term along with "silence" that may need further qualification,  for instance silence can be related to a feeling of crushing desperation or to a wide open expansiveness and insight. 

[forestofclarity]

In what context? In Madhyamaka Buddhism, void or emptiness means lacking inherent existence (i.e. an independent, unitary, unchanging essence). Both sound and silence would be "void" as they continually change into one another and are not fully distinct. What tradition are you drawing on? 

 

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

"void" is another term along with "silence" that may need further qualification,  for instance silence can be related to a feeling of crushing desperation or to a wide open expansiveness and insight. 

 

[old3bob]

7 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

In what context? In Madhyamaka Buddhism, void or emptiness means lacking inherent existence (i.e. an independent, unitary, unchanging essence). Both sound and silence would be "void" as they continually change into one another and are not fully distinct. What tradition are you drawing on? 

 

 

 

drawing partly on definitions in most common dictionaries that millions of people use...for instance void is often associated with null or "null and void" meaning nothing or canceled. (although not "no-thing")  I would also be partly drawing on Vedic and Taoist philosophies which to me do not fit with many of the widely varied Buddhist schools.  

Edited July 30, 2020 by old3bob

[old3bob]

 absolute simplicity 

Edited July 31, 2020 by old3bob