Do you still believe in coronavirus?

[Toni]

Months ago we talked about this. Some believed it was very dangerou and some believed it was a fucking joke, including me. What us your opinion now? Have u changed ur thoughts? Do u think media and governments are the real virus?

 

I have talked today with one of my former qigong masters. It has been the first time since the pandemy and he has said to me clearly that everything is a real joke. So I want to know if people here are clever enough and sage enough to correct past mistakes and analyze things by their own.

[CloudHands]

700 000 deaths. It's a fucking joke for you ?

[Toni]

Haha 700,000? Caused by what? Stupidity has no limits

[ilumairen]

55 minutes ago, Toni said:

Haha 700,000? Caused by what? Stupidity has no limits

Are deaths the only metric you are following? Have you considered long term organ damage?

 

A coworker shared a story with me of encountering a man in the grocery store who had been one of the cases filed under “mild” and “recovered” who was rather insistent (in her re-sharing of what was shared with her) that it was no joke.

 

Do I “believe in” coronavirus? Yes. Do I believe this focus on mortality rate skews the larger picture? Yes.

 

The local KFC and Taco Bell were recently closed owing to employee outbreak, and where I work (a small part of a much larger corporate structure) masks, gloves, and temperature checks are required - at mounting cost to the employer. An employer who hired added cleaning crew to sanitize shared surfaces throughout the work day, turned conference rooms into added lunch rooms to enable more social distancing, and yesterday briefly stopped production in various areas to let each department know a second employee (who thankfully had stayed home according to corporate guidelines and therefore reduced the risk of spread to fellow employees) has a confirmed case, and contact tracing protocols are being followed. 

I can understand looking at the death toll in relation to what was presented by various news sources and feeling somewhat underwhelmed, but to me there is something rather callous, distasteful and disrespectful in referring to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people as a “f#@king joke.”

 

[Toni]

An ordinary flu kills some people, that is what it is

[ilumairen]

Just now, Toni said:

An ordinary flu kills some people, that is what it is

While you continue to ask people to think for themselves, you keep repeating the same lines without time for thought or consideration for what others present to you..

 

Does the ordinary flu cause long term organ damage to the extent being seen in Covid cases?

[natural]

24 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

I can understand looking at the death toll in relation to what was presented by various news sources and feeling somewhat underwhelmed, but to me there is something rather callous, distasteful and disrespectful in referring to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people as a “f#@king joke.”

 

This bears repeating!

I bolded for emphasis.

[Hannes]

I can understand the reasoning of thinking that this is just a flu on steroids.

There is nothing bad in being skeptical, as long as it leads to dig deeper into the facts.

 

Now I know of a dozen people that have died, and a couple dozen more who have been struggling for months.

One of that, a forty something employee of my sister in law did not have pre existing conditions. It attacked his kidneys and he died after kidney failure.

 

Of course this evidence is anecdotal, and while we hear the same things from every corner of every corner, we might ask what percentage of people are at risk. But that question is not easy to answer without knowing a couple of things.

The primary being, what are the long term effects. is this virus a cold type coronavirus where when you get over it, you are through (until your immunity wears off) or is this an Epstein Barr type of virus that just hides and strikes back years later in your system.

 

 

From my understanding, an effective long term vaccine is nearly impossible for corona viruses (common cold, SARS,...) and it doesn't seem to react much to regular anti viral drugs. Although there might be some drugs out there that have more of an effect but haven't been found or tried yet.

 

We know it uses the lungs as the center from which it can attack any organ, like some other viruses.

We also know that it is as good as airborne.

We know it can stand sunlight and is not effected by heat, summer, cold.

 

It does have low fatality rating per infection, but unless we find a cure, this disease might be the most deadly by the end of the century since it seems to not go away anytime soon.

 

The best advice is to stay healthy and hope science finds a cure, working vaccine or some other method to eradicate this thing.

You don't want to gamble with these odds given the facts.

[moment]

3 hours ago, Toni said:

Months ago we talked about this. Some believed it was very dangerou and some believed it was a fucking joke, including me. What us your opinion now? Have u changed ur thoughts? Do u think media and governments are the real virus?

 

I have talked today with one of my former qigong masters. It has been the first time since the pandemy and he has said to me clearly that everything is a real joke. So I want to know if people here are clever enough and sage enough to correct past mistakes and analyze things by their own.

 

"I have talked today with one of my former qigong masters. It has been the first time since the pandemy and he has said to me clearly that everything is a real joke."

 

I would advise that you pick your "masters" more wisely in the future.

[silent thunder]

*sigh* 

 

This truth, is driven home succinctly by this OP.

 

You can explain things to folks, but you can't understand it for them.

 

Wilfull Forced Ignorance is a seemingly insurmountable force, as one may continually reinforce their own ignorance indefinitely without tiring.

 

Now, when I encounter it, I usually just exhale gratitude and then leave that person to converse with themselves as, well that's what they're doing whether other people are involved or not.

 

peace.

[Nungali]

We had it well under control here ... the 'first wave' that is.   Now its spreading worse than before .  Virus trackers went out to check; door knocking on peoples doors that where supposed to be isolated at home . A significant % where not home.  And now, more claiming 'their rights' to not wear masks .  When asked why, a large number  said things like they didnt believe in it, its a hoax, a conspiracy , etc .

 

Some of us have seen this wave of stupidity, rising a few years before this even started . Some , me in particular, warned of the consequences.  Now, this virus seems a disease to eliminate the extremely stupid . Unfortunately  a lot of others are going to suffer for others stupidity .   A really stupid person is not only a danger to themselves , but to others around them .

[Jetsun]

Yes second pandemic is the wave of stupidity, wave of inconsideration and selfishness, wave of conspiracy theories and that pandemic seems to be growing at a similar rate to the actual virus.

[thelerner]

There are aspects of reality that happen whether you believe them or not.  I put Covid19 in that category.  Faith healers of all types or perhaps I should say the worst type, have claimed believe and you will be immune.  So far it hasn't worked that way.  Its a very contagious virus.  Not super lethal, but lethal enough, and as ilumaren pointed out it devastates many it doesn't kill. 

 

It's not exactly a brave new world.  We're dealing with the same shit every generation of our ancestors dealt with.  Hopefully we're smarter and understand the world better.  Maybe not..

 

 

[Apech]

The problem with this virus is that it is novel - and so its precise effects are not properly understood as yet.  There are many people who get it and have little or very mild symptoms (I think about 80%) while others have severe symptoms and also immune system responses which attack their own organs.  It has different levels of morbidity according to age and also ethnicity (which maybe be Vit D related or other genetic influence).   Also the viral load is a factor - so health workers exposed to a lot of the virus have more severe illness and morbidity - which is why a lot of doctors and nurses died in the initial stages.

 

We are not yet experiencing a second wave in the pure sense - rather the levels of lockdown and social distancing flattened the curve of the virus in many countries but when the restrictions were loosened (and also people went against them for instance in the BLM protests) the virus began to break out in clusters (e.g. care homes and work places) - and in some communities..  Also communities with very high density population and poor conditions provided a reservoir of infection.  The usual patten is a rising peak which drops away and then flattens to a steady stream of cases per day - deaths lag slightly but follow the same pattern.

 

A vaccine is an unlikely prospect in the near future (if ever) and so it would seem that we should maintain sensible social distancing precautions.  However a severe lockdown will have such economic consequences that many will die from the resulting recession/depression to the world economy.  So it is not reasonable to think that countries can maintain these measures for the long term.  Which means we will have to live with the virus - and hopefully over time it will, as is often the case with infectious disease, adapt to the host (humans) and become less severe.  At some point there will be sufficient people to form herd immunity which will prevent epidemic levels - but it is uncertain when that will occur.

 

The levels of morbidity are higher than flu but not that much higher.  So we should treat it with caution but not fear.  It's not Ebola or the Black Death - but on the other hand it is serious and unpredictable enough to cause concern.   What is not helping is the confused response of governments, the woeful activity of the WHO and the media who have spectacularly failed us in providing the kind of information we need.

 

 

[ilumairen]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

The problem with this virus is that it is novel - and so its precise effects are not properly understood as yet.  There are many people who get it and have little or very mild symptoms (I think about 80%) while others have severe symptoms and also immune system responses which attack their own organs.  It has different levels of morbidity according to age and also ethnicity (which maybe be Vit D related or other genetic influence).   Also the viral load is a factor - so health workers exposed to a lot of the virus have more severe illness and morbidity - which is why a lot of doctors and nurses died in the initial stages.

 

We are not yet experiencing a second wave in the pure sense - rather the levels of lockdown and social distancing flattened the curve of the virus in many countries but when the restrictions were loosened (and also people went against them for instance in the BLM protests) the virus began to break out in clusters (e.g. care homes and work places) - and in some communities..  Also communities with very high density population and poor conditions provided a reservoir of infection.  The usual patten is a rising peak which drops away and then flattens to a steady stream of cases per day - deaths lag slightly but follow the same pattern.

 

A vaccine is an unlikely prospect in the near future (if ever) and so it would seem that we should maintain sensible social distancing precautions.  However a severe lockdown will have such economic consequences that many will die from the resulting recession/depression to the world economy.  So it is not reasonable to think that countries can maintain these measures for the long term.  Which means we will have to live with the virus - and hopefully over time it will, as is often the case with infectious disease, adapt to the host (humans) and become less severe.  At some point there will be sufficient people to form herd immunity which will prevent epidemic levels - but it is uncertain when that will occur.

 

The levels of morbidity are higher than flu but not that much higher.  So we should treat it with caution but not fear.  It's not Ebola or the Black Death - but on the other hand it is serious and unpredictable enough to cause concern.   What is not helping is the confused response of governments, the woeful activity of the WHO and the media who have spectacularly failed us in providing the kind of information we need.

 

 

Hi Apech,

 

A couple thoughts:

 

As it is becoming apparent the antibodies are not long lasting, and re-infection apparently can and does occur, I have found myself in a position where I am (at this time) completely unable to hold onto the once much touted hope of “herd immunity.”

 

And I read a more recent article on the (lack of) measures taken by Sweden, and how it was financially impacted in a way which was rather equivalent to it’s neighbors, but with a higher mortality rate. It seems economic consequences are part and parcel of this pandemic, and are rather unavoidable.

 

 

[zerostao]

11 hours ago, Toni said:

Months ago we talked about this. Some believed it was very dangerou and some believed it was a fucking joke, including me. What us your opinion now? Have u changed ur thoughts? Do u think media and governments are the real virus?

 

I have talked today with one of my former qigong masters. It has been the first time since the pandemy and he has said to me clearly that everything is a real joke. So I want to know if people here are clever enough and sage enough to correct past mistakes and analyze things by their own.

Hi Toni, hope you are safe and healthy. As the song says, "there many here among us who say, life is but a joke" others think its but a dream. There are differing ideas concerning all of this; the parts and the whole.

Of course the media and governments are the real virus. However, it was accepted way back in ancient Greek that we made the choice towards civilizations, governments, medias, somewhere around time of gilgamesh and we crossed the point of no return on this.

Notice I said ""we". And we are not going to step away from governments. It isn't every generation that always deals with all that is going on presently. It is roughly every saeculum, which is every fourth generation. Like clock work every 90-110 years. 

100 years ago influenza , the great war. Go back to the saeculums preceding that one, you get american civil war, then revolutionary war.

I'm speaking of America because I live here in murica.

Wherever your geography is, I'm confident trace back and you will find major events. Influenza and the great war are common to most of us.

If you have a good qigong teacher and you have given due diligence to your practice and meditation. No worries. You should have protections, force field, or enhanced immune system. I myself, am not concerned of covid-19 befalling me. I am greatly concerned for others. It is a serious enough thing and it's not like whisking away a fly.

The indirect dangers, the dominoes are every bit as dangerous  as the direct danger. This world is globalized, when something far away goes very wrong, it's not far away at all, it's at your doorstep.

The world is a dangerous place.

The last bit of your post though, the clever and sage stuff. I dont see any merit in that. It's just tossing off. Clever isn't any noble goal, it's often a trap. Trying to be clever, really? You should set your goal higher than that. Sage? Way beyond my pay grade. Sage is a worthy goal. You cant overstudy Nature, and best be banking some merit and virtue and dont slack on the meditation. Friends in High places helps. Still, no one said itd be easy or easy to find one. Practically speaking, we dont have the time for it now. A couple of days ago I mentioned there are 2 or3 real threats, no fucking joke coming in behind Corona. Really, its 3 to 4. 

Edit> using the "stupid" word suggests perhaps you're at risk of being caught up in the clever trap. Yes, things can appear absurd AF any direction one looks. I'll put it another way, how is complaining about stupid helping you? Its not.

Second edit> folks waiting for the vaccine, the flu already has vaccine, no?

 Yet, many still die from flu.

Third edit! A trifecta, right now choices are hanging in the air like ghosts, choose wisely. Maybe we ain't got sages, but you know what we do got?

We got bums. 

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by zerostao

[ilumairen]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

*sigh* 

 

This truth, is driven home succinctly by this OP.

 

You can explain things to folks, but you can't understand it for them.

 

Wilfull Forced Ignorance is a seemingly insurmountable force, as one may continually reinforce their own ignorance indefinitely without tiring.

 

Now, when I encounter it, I usually just exhale gratitude and then leave that person to converse with themselves as, well that's what they're doing whether other people are involved or not.

 

peace.

Owing to something presented by another member here regarding distasteful views only being challenged when they are expressed (which I am still leaning towards not completely believing, although that may be a different conversation), I am finding myself less self silencing than I once was.

 

Edit to add: Although I do respect and understand your position. peace.

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by ilumairen

[Apech]

10 hours ago, ilumairen said:

Hi Apech,

 

A couple thoughts:

 

As it is becoming apparent the antibodies are not long lasting, and re-infection apparently can and does occur, I have found myself in a position where I am (at this time) completely unable to hold onto the once much touted hope of “herd immunity.”

 

And I read a more recent article on the (lack of) measures taken by Sweden, and how it was financially impacted in a way which was rather equivalent to it’s neighbors, but with a higher mortality rate. It seems economic consequences are part and parcel of this pandemic, and are rather unavoidable.

 

 

 

Herd immunity is the main mechanism where populations of at risk hosts defend against disease.  It kicks in when the proportion of people in the population are sufficiently high that the rate of transmission reduces to such a low level that the disease is no longer epidemic.

 

From Sweden where there were almost no lockdown measures - tho' I think they did ban large assemblies of people you can see how the level of new cases rises naturally to a plateau and then peaks and then dies away again.

 

 

From the daily deaths data you can see that this falls away naturally, but slowly to almost zero.

 

 

Compare the UK where there was a lockdown, the curve is dramatically flattened but then seems to continue on at a much lower flat rate but never go away.

 

 

Similarly with the daily death rate.

 

 

 

Antibodies are not the only immune reaction in the body and it may be that in many people T cells eliminate the virus without the need for generating an antibody response.

 

Financial impact occurs because economies have global links - so if most countries lock down then an individual country which doesn't will still be impacted.  But the fact remains that globally we cannot sustain much more lockdown without a very severe recession which directly and indirectly kill far more people than the virus.

[Toni]

7 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Herd immunity is the main mechanism where populations of at risk hosts defend against disease.  It kicks in when the proportion of people in the population are sufficiently high that the rate of transmission reduces to such a low level that the disease is no longer epidemic.

 

From Sweden where there were almost no lockdown measures - tho' I think they did ban large assemblies of people you can see how the level of new cases rises naturally to a plateau and then peaks and then dies away again.

 

 

From the daily deaths data you can see that this falls away naturally, but slowly to almost zero.

 

 

Compare the UK where there was a lockdown, the curve is dramatically flattened but then seems to continue on at a much lower flat rate but never go away.

 

 

Similarly with the daily death rate.

 

 

 

Antibodies are not the only immune reaction in the body and it may be that in many people T cells eliminate the virus without the need for generating an antibody response.

 

Financial impact occurs because economies have global links - so if most countries lock down then an individual country which doesn't will still be impacted.  But the fact remains that globally we cannot sustain much more lockdown without a very severe recession which directly and indirectly kill far more people than the virus.

Very intelligent comment. But again let's not forget this is just a common flu

[Apech]

21 hours ago, Toni said:

Months ago we talked about this. Some believed it was very dangerou and some believed it was a fucking joke, including me. What us your opinion now? Have u changed ur thoughts? Do u think media and governments are the real virus?

 

I have talked today with one of my former qigong masters. It has been the first time since the pandemy and he has said to me clearly that everything is a real joke. So I want to know if people here are clever enough and sage enough to correct past mistakes and analyze things by their own.

 

As a cultivator who works with subtle energy and so on then I would say that your physical ability to cope with external pathogens is affected by your level of energy and purity.  There are things that you can do to improve your likelihood of immunity - including normal health and diet.  One thing I don't think has any wisdom is to dismiss real threats as a 'joke'.  Unless you are being really clever and connecting the word 'joke' with its PIE origin *iok meaning 'word or utterance' and thereby connecting all entities as vibrational structures.  Then you could ask yourself deep questions about what covid and corona actually means and what impact it is making on all levels of human life and society.

[Apech]

4 minutes ago, Toni said:

Very intelligent comment. But again let's not forget this is just a common flu

 

No it isn't a common flu - the clue is in the word 'novel' corona virus - it is a new form which has unpredictable outcomes in those who are infected - this is why there is so much confusing and contradictory information about it.

 

 

[Toni]

Covid is just like a common flu. Every year the flu can be novel, different from other years.

 

The impact is due to a very bad response by governments and media (and at first also by the medical community until they began to realize the truth), that have failed us immensily

Edited August 5, 2020 by Toni

[Master Logray]

Flu doesn't have long term effect.  More and more studies indicates the virus can affect lung, liver and the brain with sustained damages.

[Jetsun]

They estimate in peak flu season deaths by flu total 750, whereas Cronovirus deaths in April were around 15,000 per week in the US. So they estimate it is between 10-44 times more deadly than the flu.

 

That is just deaths, also hospitalisations are much higher and long term effects are also more severe. 

 

Perhaps in the future if such a thing as herd immunity develops it might be comparable to the flu, but not at the moment, not by a long shot. 

[carlos248]

Spanish flu still has a way bigger impact. And people where healthier in that time. 

Many of the dead people would have died without corona a few month later. Corona for me is a disease and its better not to have it. What makes it worse is the publicity it is getting, organ damages? Only a few are affected, luckily.  

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200401-coronavirus-why-death-and-mortality-rates-differ 

 

Mortality is lower than most people thing, around 1% which is pretty hefty,

but corona is not the Ebola like disease the media paints it to be.

Here a comparison of the pandemonium > https://www.visualcapitalist.com/history-of-pandemics-deadliest/