The psychology of conspiracy theories

[Vajra Fist]

1 hour ago, RobB said:

 

I'm guessing ... The Grauniad - right?

 

I should be so lucky. 

 

I'm not saying that journalists don't present the truth in a slanted way, we do because the things we find newsworthy agree with our own views of the world. This is confirmation bias. 

 

But at the same time, to say that unconscious bias is part of a greater conspiracy or plot is just vastly wrong. 

 

The exception of course are the less reputable, more polemical ends of the market, like the Daily Mail. The journalists there might have left wing views but they know their editors will kill a story if it reflects a certain narrative. That is not because of corporate or political interests, but because they know their readers will also want to see things that support their own confirmation bias.

 

The best outlets are those that don't have a politically defined readership. The BBC has incredibly robust internal mechanisms to ensure their reporting is free of personal bias. But still they get regular accusations of bias not only from the right wing, but also from the left. That has increased vastly in the last five years, as political views are vastly more polarised. If you see a story that undermines your view of the world people are very quick to claim bias, even if the story is provably true.

 

Whatever bias there is in media is purely in how news is selected and presented. There are very few examples of outright lies being printed in mainstream media. If a journalist makes up sources then they normally get fired pretty quickly. It is extremely competitive at the top and factual errors even as minor as mis-spelling of names are rarely tolerated, let alone huge fuckups like a failure to corroborate sources. I once knew a guy who worked for a major national paper here in the UK who got sacked very publicly for making up quotes. He hasn't been able to find a job again since and that was nearly a decade ago.

 

Anyhow - off topic totally. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Vajra Fist

[forestofclarity]

Umm, yeah. 

 

4 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

As a cloven-hoofed member of the "MSM" I can indeed confirm this. We no longer care about verifying every off-record source with at least two other off record sources, nor is getting a story wrong a major source of professional embarrassment and often also a sackable offence. Instead we just spaff out any old bollocks in the hope of attracting converts to our satanic plot. 

22 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

Now its the lefties who are apparently all in charge and they want everyone to be (variously) vaccinated/aborted/atheist/gay.

 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I should be so lucky. 

 

I'm not saying that journalists don't present the truth in a slanted way, we do because the things we find newsworthy agree with our own views of the world. This is confirmation bias. 

 

But at the same time, to say that unconscious bias is part of a greater conspiracy or plot is just vastly wrong. 

 

The exception of course are the less reputable, more polemical ends of the market, like the Daily Mail. The journalists there might have left wing views but they know their editors will kill a story if it reflects a certain narrative. That is not because of corporate or political interests, but because they know their readers will also want to see things that support their own confirmation bias.

 

The best outlets are those that don't have a politically defined readership. The BBC has incredibly robust internal mechanisms to ensure their reporting is free of personal bias. But still they get regular accusations of bias not only from the right wing, but also from the left. That has increased vastly in the last five years, as political views are vastly more polarised. If you see a story that undermines your view of the world people are very quick to claim bias, even if the story is provably true.

I find BBC being extremely biased in the case of India. They still suffer from a colonial hangover in that regard. 

2 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Whatever bias there is in media is purely in how news is selected and presented. There are very few examples of outright lies being printed in mainstream media. If a journalist makes up sources then they normally get fired pretty quickly. It is extremely competitive at the top and factual errors even as minor as mis-spelling of names are rarely tolerated, let alone huge fuckups like a failure to corroborate sources. I once knew a guy who worked for a major national paper here in the UK who got sacked very publicly for making up quotes. He hasn't been able to find a job again since and that was nearly a decade ago.

 

Anyhow - off topic totally. 

I don’t think this is off-topic as media is a part of the problem that’s being highlighted imho. 
 

Not sure about the UK, but in the US, there is certain polarization in MSM, most blatant of them being Fox “News” vs MSNBC (old story). But this extends to NYT, WaPo etc etc, even the WSJ. 
 

Similar trends can be seen in Indian media too, where the long entrenched leftist media has gone bonkers with the two term clear majority wins of a “Hindu nationalist”.  This has given rise to “right wing” media to counter the left. 
There are only two victims in such scenarios. The facts, and the consumers of said news. 

[ilumairen]

On 8/10/2020 at 10:23 AM, Vajra Fist said:

Now its the lefties who are apparently all in charge and they want everyone to be (variously) vaccinated/aborted/atheist/gay.

 

Coming back to this, to me it seems to be a bit of a misrepresentation, possibly based on misunderstanding.

 

Regarding the ideas of abortion, atheism, and homosexuality, I don’t believe it is a plausible generality that individuals with certain political views want everyone to be any one, or all, of these things. I believe “the establishment” has long been viewed as controlling individuals in regard to these things, and “lefties” want individuals to have the ability to choose and express for themselves.  

 

Quote

Its weird the way the world turns.

 

 

[thelerner]

In defense of Conspiracy Theories.

Well, they make us feel smart and special.  Part of an elite group; empowered by a truth the sheeple can't understand.  Our wackiest & nastiest beliefs are generally due to the groups we're involved with.   The beliefs are the 'rational' but often the reason is to hang out with fun bunch of guys. 

 

They make the world much more understandable.   Experts, scientist and investigators are disregarded in favor of those with strong simplistic agendas.  Professional conspiracy theorists; they are never wrong, just delayed.. the economy will collapse later.. the round up, coup and apocalypse are constantly teased but like a cliff hanger moved to next season, stay tuned in.. send money! buy our supplements and survival gear!

 

Real disasters are competition and tend to downplayed and discredits, if for no other reason they're based on the experts and professionals that can't be believed.  If an adult thinks the world is flat, its not so bad, but if a kid does, it means he'll be anti-science his whole life.  That's a bad thing. 

 

 

[Vajra Fist]

58 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Coming back to this, to me it seems to be a bit of a misrepresentation, possibly based on misunderstanding.

 

Regarding the ideas of abortion, atheism, and homosexuality, I don’t believe it is a plausible generality that individuals with certain political views want everyone to be any one, or all, of these things. I believe “the establishment” has long been viewed as controlling individuals in regard to these things, and “lefties” want individuals to have the ability to choose and express for themselves.  

 

 

 

Yes sorry I was being glib. For the record I am a socialist. But people on the far right tend to view liberals as oppressive in their advocacy of equal rights, freedom of choice etc, as though its a threat to their so-called Christian values. 

 

The rightwing conspiracy mill these days see the liberal movement as an anti-Christian plot.

[Taomeow]

Per my experience, nowhere in the world is a lack of heartfelt belief in the eternal benevolence and infallibiliby of the corporate/military-industrial/banking overlordship written off (with a default smirk of superiority) as a "conspiracy theory" as successfully as in the US.  

 

People who are aware did not become aware in order to

 

8 minutes ago, thelerner said:

feel smart and special. 

 

They became aware because the global beast chewed up and spat out their lives and the lives of their loved ones.  The term "conspiracy theory" introduced into circulation and vigorously promoted as the euphemism for "crimethink" didn't quite catch on everywhere because people have died by the hundreds of millions doing what the global beast told them is right and good and true -- and not everybody, hard as they may try, was able to overcome the cognitive dissonance. 

 

Some people are mistaken, some are instinctively resistant to brainwashing without necessarily having the brain power to come up with a viable cognitive alternative, some are merely uneducated or dumb or both, some want to "feel smart and special" --

 

but they are only a small percentage of those who "don't buy it."  The majority of those who are prone to "crimethink" are intelligent, perceptive, avidly and competently engaged in continuos self-education, and traumatized.  If you haven't been chewed up by the beast, if no one in your family ever was, you may keep trusting it.  But if you weren't deceived and hurt by it, you are the minutest minority in this world.  You have no idea yet how a true believer in whatever you truly believe in feels when the object of your true belief shows its blood-dripping fangs from behind the mask of benevolence and infallibility.

 

So enjoy it while it lasts.  It won't.

[manitou]

OMG.  I was just watching something about Fred Trump Sr.  He died of the flu in 1918!!!  No wonder Trump wants nothing to do with the flu.  He refuses to deal with it at all.  Fred Trump Sr. was a terribly strong focal point of the Trump family and pushed mercilessly on his sons to compete.  The loss of Fred Sr. was a horrible jolt to the family and it probably imprinted Trump pretty hard.

 

Hey, it's an explanation, not an excuse.....

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by manitou

[forestofclarity]

I think this is something of a false dichotomy. It is not conspiracy theory vs. love of the U.S. ruling class. Conspiracy theories are a distraction, one of the myriad ways people split off from one another. Typically at the center of a conspiracy theory is a group of elites that are secretly manipulating the world. The Rothschilds, the Bildebergs, the Freemasons, the Jews, Reptilians, etc. Politically morphed, it becomes the supposed scientific industrial complex which is trying to convince us that global warming is real because, well, huge profits in climate change I guess (as opposed to oil and gas?). Vaccines are a form of mind control. Experts are wrong because we don't like what they say.

 

But there is no conspiracy. It is all done open and publicly if we bother to look. It is done through political contributions, for example. In the U.S., some of the largest donors fund both parties. It is done through trade policies and lobbyists. It is done through the World Bank. It is done through social and cultural institutions that have developed over time, through habit. But tales of laws and policies are boring. We want cartoon villains. We want cabals. 

 

On an individual level, it is mental habits that further self-centeredness, greed, hatred, and delusion. We like the idea of secret cabals because it helps us grasp onto some external villain and project our problems elsewhere. It allows one to claim "awakening" by grasping a particular set of concepts rather than being forced to do the hard work on one's self. 

 

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Per my experience, nowhere in the world is a lack of heartfelt belief in the eternal benevolence and infallibiliby of the corporate/military-industrial/banking overlordship written off (with a default smirk of superiority) as a "conspiracy theory" as successfully as in the US.  

 

[old3bob]

as far as devious diabolical stuff going on in the lower astral realms there is no doubt about it!  And sure beings of the higher astral realms can see right through the designs of the lower... while humans may or may not see such depending on our state.   Btw. when it comes to the lower astral realm (or demonic) forces seeing what is going on with the high astral realm they are completely blind, and can be  blinded by the light.

Edited August 11, 2020 by old3bob

[RobB]

I like Alan Moore's take on conspiracy theories:

 

“The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory, is that conspiracy theorists believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is actually chaotic. The truth is that it is not The Iluminati, or The Jewish Banking Conspiracy, or the Gray Alien Theory.

The truth is far more frightening - Nobody is in control.

The world is rudderless.”

[Daemon]

15 hours ago, manitou said:

Hey, it's an explanation

 

As an insider's perspective Mary Trump's book is interesting especially as she's not only his niece but also a clinical psychologist. Here's a taster.

 

☮️

 

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, RobB said:

I like Alan Moore's take on conspiracy theories:

 

“The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory, is that conspiracy theorists believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is actually chaotic. The truth is that it is not The Iluminati, or The Jewish Banking Conspiracy, or the Gray Alien Theory.

The truth is far more frightening - Nobody is in control.

The world is rudderless.”

 

I take this view as well.

Belief, in general, is motivated by security.

If we don’t know we can either accept the not-knowing or substitute a belief.

Ironically, the most genuine security we can truly have is in the acceptance that security is an illusion.

I once read a good book about this called The Question to Life’s Answers by Steven Harrison.

[Kubba]

An alternative perspective on conspiracy theories 

 

[old3bob]

so are we throwing out revealed teachings like the following excerpt from TTC 25?:

 

"...Hence, "Tao is great,
Heaven is great,
Earth is great,
King is great."
Thus, the king is one of the great four in the Universe.
Man follows the ways of the Earth.
The Earth follows the ways of Heaven,
Heaven follows the ways of Tao,
Tao follows its own ways."

 

or should we just add a line that says hell (or evil) is comparatively "rudderless" and follows or is of chaos....

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by old3bob

[manitou]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

I take this view as well.

Belief, in general, is motivated by security.

If we don’t know we can either accept the not-knowing or substitute a belief.

Ironically, the most genuine security we can truly have is in the acceptance that security is an illusion.

I once read a good book about this called The Question to Life’s Answers by Steven Harrison.

 

 

I think the most genuine security we can have is the acceptance of who we really Are.

[manitou]

4 hours ago, Daemon said:

 

As an insider's perspective Mary Trump's book is interesting especially as she's not only his niece but also a clinical psychologist. Here's a taster.

 

☮️

 

 

 

Yes, I've read it.  She seemed to have a nice balanced view

[doc benway]

35 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

I think the most genuine security we can have is the acceptance of who we really Are.

 

Very true. If we give up the illusion of security, we need to simply trust in what is, as it is.

I believe that can foster the realization you point to.

[old3bob]

57 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

I think the most genuine security we can have is the acceptance of who we really Are.

 

so how many think they know who they really are?  (most of us think we are our particular minds or emotions which in the end are taken away)

Edited August 12, 2020 by old3bob

[ilumairen]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

so are we throwing out revealed teachings like the following excerpt from TTC 25?:

 

"...Hence, "Tao is great,
Heaven is great,
Earth is great,
King is great."
Thus, the king is one of the great four in the Universe.
Man follows the ways of the Earth.
The Earth follows the ways of Heaven,
Heaven follows the ways of Tao,
Tao follows its own ways."

 

or should we just add a line that says hell (or evil) is comparatively "rudderless" and follows or is of chaos....

 

A scholarly article presenting a case for the ddj not being the “revealed teachings” of a singular author, but a historically contextualuzed creation of a number of individuals (perhaps spanning generations) with a rather interesting purpose of influencing the ruler, in a way which is deceptive, towards his own deceptive manipulation of the population (rather fitting in a “conspiracy theory” thread imo):

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/507927

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

so how many think they know who they really are?  (most of us think we are our particular minds or emotions which in the end are taken away)

 

Just about everyone, I would think 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, ilumairen said:

A scholarly article presenting a case for the ddj not being the “revealed teachings” of a singular author, but a historically contextualuzed creation of a number of individuals (perhaps spanning generations) with a rather interesting purpose of influencing the ruler, in a way which is deceptive, towards his own deceptive manipulation of the population (rather fitting in a “conspiracy theory” thread imo):

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/507927

 

"...Man follows the ways of the Earth.
The Earth follows the ways of Heaven,..."

 

for those who have never heard the mother sing, (or have completely forgotten) how sad that is or would be...

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by old3bob

[RobB]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

Tao follows its own ways

 

I am not sure that this is so different from 'rudderless' and 'nobody is in control'. It is interesting though. To what extent is the tao working it's incomprehensibly complex mechanisms - chaotic. Clearly there is no rudder (or tiller rather) to grasp nor any one individual directing the action but is it 'directionless'?

[forestofclarity]

It probably depends. old3Bob spend a lot of time in the Hindu section so I would imagine that his/her/their interpretations skew in one direction (although old3bob has also mentioned that he/she/they doesn't really follow a tradition-- I suppose he/she/they can clarify). As a Buddhist, my interpretations skew toward the "rudderless," and direction depends on the being. I would say in my view, most beings are directed toward happiness, but ignorance confuses us as to how that is achieved. For some, that means piling up wealth and protecting the current body. For others, this may mean helping others by aiming at Buddhahood. 

 

30 minutes ago, RobB said:

 

I am not sure that this is so different from 'rudderless' and 'nobody is in control'. It is interesting though. To what extent is the tao working it's incomprehensibly complex mechanisms - chaotic. Clearly there is no rudder (or tiller rather) to grasp nor any one individual directing the action but is it 'directionless'?

 

[forestofclarity]

Personally, I think he's too self-absorbed to care what happened before he was born. I don't think he's anti-flu per se, but he doesn't like how it is affecting the economy and his chances at re-election. I don't also doubt there is a vanity/comfort component (masks don't look/feel good). 

 

I thought Gary Lachman's book "Dark Star Rising" was an interesting study on the occult beliefs and right wing politics. He spends a lot of time with Trump's background in New Thought, which praises the "power of positive thinking," and, in many cases, ignoring cold hard facts. 

 

On 8/11/2020 at 1:07 PM, manitou said:

OMG.  I was just watching something about Fred Trump Sr.  He died of the flu in 1918!!!  No wonder Trump wants nothing to do with the flu.  He refuses to deal with it at all.  Fred Trump Sr. was a terribly strong focal point of the Trump family and pushed mercilessly on his sons to compete.  The loss of Fred Sr. was a horrible jolt to the family and it probably imprinted Trump pretty hard.

 

Hey, it's an explanation, not an excuse.....