Mosquitoes, ants?

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

I think this is personal opinion. It’s going to be sects of daoism that Have these beliefs because of influence of Buddhist ideas and depending on the culture or communities aversion to death and understanding. You can’t see how Logically it would seem proper to not kill things we didn’t have to, especially from our human social perspective? It’s logical consistency overflowing from how we view other humans. The trouble is the worlds functioning is indifferent and we don’t have true knowledge of what and why life is. Zhuangzi touches on these kinds of dilemmas of logic and shows that ultimately your “truth”will be ties to your perspective and since we lack the “ultimate truth” about just about everything there’s going to be a whole lot of perspectives. 
 

there’s going to be a a number of different “daoisms” you should look into why that is and it will help you understand better

[manitou]

Another answer might be to thank them for everything they've done before you off 'em. 

 

The other alternative is to be like the man in India who goes around without clothing and sweeps the path ahead of him so he doesn't step on any living thing.

 

Where to land along the spectrum?  The choice is ours to make...once we realize who we actually Are.

[EmeraldHead]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

Another answer might be to thank them for everything they've done before you off 'em. 

 

The other alternative is to be like the man in India who goes around without clothing and sweeps the path ahead of him so he doesn't step on any living thing.

 

Where to land along the spectrum?  The choice is ours to make...once we realize who we actually Are.

Well mentioned facts.

 

I think it's a personal practice. Some practice sexual tantra 5 times a day at least. Others are celibate for a lifetime. It does on your personal way of integrating with life around you. For example Prince Gotama taught to master the 5 aggregates means to not be influenced by them or feel them when they act, minimising their effects on you. Other can very well master do the opposite.

 

So again, should you kill? Well should you help this one person because you feel like it? Similarly should you judge this ones persons life? Who are you to know. Practice is absolute. You judgement, opinions, emotions and circumstances are not. This is why an ounce of real practice is worth infinitely more than a lifetime of charity and benevolence;

 

in the past some sects would stand up on a rock for years, even sleeping standing up. They become dry, and their spirit could be said to be secondarily developed in their practice, not primarily.

Edited September 25, 2020 by EmeraldHead

[manitou]

You have a wonderful way of communicating, EmeraldHead.  That was beautiful.  I think at the point of non-duality, there's no Should with anything anymore.  It is a live ant.  It is a dead ant.  The ant is a straw dog, just like us.

[mrpasserby]

The following info. is taken from an article written about a student possessing an ant to vicariously experience/practice crossing over to death and back.

#**Normal-incidental info. During the practice that this article is based on, the student who enjoyed the crossing became nervous, and so just before trancing out, he asked the student Mentor what he should do if he became frightened of all the beings that would appear to him as giants when he was experiencing his vicarious journey through the normal movements of the ant while it was alive. The student Mentor had jokingly said: “when you get out there, and if you feel uncomfortable just wave at one of the giants that look like a human and ask for help” Lol. The student did just that and another student who just happened to be nearby noticed the weirdly waving actions of the ant and not thinking much of it, decided that it was a good time to take a leek. The next day the student that had possessed the ant for the crossing, approached the student Mentor, and in all seriousness complained about his unhealthy treatment at the hands of the unsympathetic giant student, to the Student Mentor. The student Mentor tried to not hurt the already indignant students' feelings, but try as he would he could not hide his uproarious laughter. The resulting fuss over the incident still carries weight several decades later, and because of it, many an insect has had its life spared and even been protected, when anywhere near the student Mentor.

Edited September 26, 2020 by mrpasserby
spelling

[silent thunder]

We live not far from you Mig.  On ground floor we had a steady stream of scouts moving through and about the house.  I suspect there was a massive colony under that building and in the surrounding area.  We used chalk barriers for the big openings and were diligent about not leaving food about, crumbs and wiping surfaces.  Not much can be done about scouts, but if there's nothing found to eat and carry back, no one else shows up.

 

In that place we set our cats food bowl, in a slightly larger bowl that had a bit of water in it, creating a mote around the food.  This allowed our cats access to food while preventing the bowl from attracting a column and being overrun. 

 

Where we live now, second floor we've not had any ants I can recall.  Though the downstairs neighbors keep their recycling in the yard until there's a couple dozen bags, then they make their run to recycle it.  Every so often there is a hatching of roaches.

 

My wife smashes them with no question and no double thinking.

I don't always kill.  When I do, I don't question it.  When I don't, I don't question it.

 

 

Death and Life are one process and Death is by far the more pleasant of the two, in my personal and repeated experience.

 

Grew up eating pheasant, duck, grouse, goose, squirrel, rabbit and raccoon that my Father and I hunted.  Two freezers full.

I loathe suffering and so endeavored to become a skilled marksman to be able to kill with a headshot as mercifully and as often as possible.

 

I will be food for others one day.  It's natural.  Straw Dogs...

 

Always appreciated T.H. White's rendition of ant life in The Once and Future King. 

 

After being transformed into a variety of animals and fish, Art finds himself living as an Ant through the Alchemy of The Merlin.

Ant culture and life is portrayed with an utterly simple binary process of focus on completing.  It is efficient and uncluttered by mulling of things.  There is either a task that is done, in which case it's no longer considered... and there are tasks that are not done.  These are attended to until done, and then they are out of mind.

 

'There is a not done tunnel in sector 4.'  This not done status could mean unfinished, damaged, caved in... it's irrelevantAnts receiving the message respond and go to the not done tunnel in sector 4 and make the tunnel done. 

 

If an ant becomes injured, killed or defective, it becomes a not done ant.  "There is a not done ant in sector 3."  Ants receiving this message will go and take the not done ants to the 'done pile'.

 

There is no mulling over of shoulds and shouldn'ts, there is doing of what is not done, until it's done.  Then there's no mulling over of what was done, there's doing what next is not done, until it is done.  Straw Dogs... all of us.  All of it.

 

By Straw Dogs I don't mean inherently worthless...  Straw Dogs, for the duration of the festival (their manifestation as a life form) are inherently celebrated, but when the end of the festival arrives, they again become just straw, the form is not what endures, or matters in the wider context.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by silent thunder
removed some content

[manitou]

Back about 40 years ago, I was driving a police car on the Hollywood freeway.  In the fast lane, somebody had hit a dog.  The dog had his hind legs crushed, but the front part of him was still sitting up, howling.  I so wish I had had the reflexes to finish that little fellow off,  but I didn't.  I drove by him.  I remember thinking I should get off at the next offramp and circle back, but I was in a hurry to get to downtown L.A.  

 

 It haunts me still.

[natural]

My Uncle was a peace officer in Detroit after WW2. On his first day first solo he got a call to put down a dog, who was either a menace, had mange, or rabies. Long story but he had to expend three bullets to put the animal down. Returning to report in and collect for the bullets, (at that the officers had to provide their own weapon and bullets.

They sent him out to finish that Sob. And return with the revolver renewed, before ending his day. The dog had passed on...

He carried the nick name third time lucky for along time.

[manitou]

The SOB being the dog?

[mrpasserby]

9 hours ago, silent thunder said:

After being transformed into a variety of animals and fish, Art finds himself living as an Ant through the Alchemy of The Merlin.

Thanks, for the opportunity to mention the "Merlin" myths: In my experience: Pagan Mages/Merlins sometimes use ants-dead or alive to have their students gain experiential knowledge about traveling through the ethereal portion of the world.

Pagan Mage's historical activities are frequently billed under the laughable guise of mythic Merlin because IMO: in past times religious armies destroyed all the books scrolls relics symbols, killed all the historian's mages practitioners, made laughable myths out of anything concerning Alchemy/magic Pagan Mage practises, killed anyone that told the truth about it, and then let whatever was left stew in obscurity for hundreds of years. Until finally somebody comes along and writes books and makes comments about the airy-fairy Merlin Alchemy/magic like they know what they are talking about. 'Just sain'

[dwai]

Maybe find a way to create a barrier for ants? I usually get my home perimeter treated — supposed to be eco-friendly & non-toxic. Prevents ants from coming into the house. 
 

I had tried many things including those powered gadgets that are supposed to emanate a field that dissuades ants. 

 

 Mosquitos are interesting. I usually let them bite me when I’m outdoors, mostly I don’t feel them unless several of them come at me simultaneously. 
 

Having grown up in places where mosquitos are rather ruthless and brutally vindictive (or so it seemed then), with potential for being carriers of malaria, we either hid from them behind mosquito nets or with strong anti-mosquito incense (which was probably as toxic as malarial parasites themselves). I don’t have any doubts that mosquitos and humans don’t go together  

[manitou]

I wonder why it is that mosquitos seem to prefer some than others.  My roommate is a mosquito magnet.  Me, not so much.  I wonder if they have a preference for blood types.

[silent thunder]

They love my wife.  I'm ignored.

 

I grew up in Minnesota and have had many hundreds of thousands of bites growing up.

Body no longer reacts even on the rare chance one does stop for a taste.

 

My wife however, is always covered when outdoors and when she sleeps, even in the heat.

And they go after any exposed spots.  She sometimes wakes up, looking like a prize fighter after a rough match.

 

She's A- while I'm O+.

[Taomeow]

We are here.

 

 

 

 

[Mig]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

Maybe find a way to create a barrier for ants? I usually get my home perimeter treated — supposed to be eco-friendly & non-toxic. Prevents ants from coming into the house. 
 

I had tried many things including those powered gadgets that are supposed to emanate a field that dissuades ants. 

 

 Mosquitos are interesting. I usually let them bite me when I’m outdoors, mostly I don’t feel them unless several of them come at me simultaneously. 
 

Having grown up in places where mosquitos are rather ruthless and brutally vindictive (or so it seemed then), with potential for being carriers of malaria, we either hid from them behind mosquito nets or with strong anti-mosquito incense (which was probably as toxic as malarial parasites themselves). I don’t have any doubts that mosquitos and humans don’t go together  

Ants had to make a choice, either get their food and water somewhere else, I had put all that at their disposal, but no, they prefer good food from my kitchen, so at the end I made the decision to eliminate them with a sweet poison so the colony will die. So far it is controlled and we are happy to have that piece of mind.
As for mosquitoes, no other choice but to have citronella plant near me, citronella  candles and wearing white cloths, they are less aggressive and stay away for the time being.
Now the reason of my question was because as I was reading precepts both in Daoism and Buddhism about not to kill, I wondered if they follow that precept to animals or insects that become a nuisance and invading your territory.

[Hannes]

My personal though is that it is misguided to look at Dao for the answer about getting rid of ants or not.

Borax works well.

 

on the topic of insects,

From the gimps of understanding I have, insects belong to a kingdom equal to plants.

And we should be in wonder of the beautiful part they play in the being that is our planet.

 

We tend our garden as we tend our house.

 

Thinking too much is a problem that stands in the way of being, and any teaching that speaks about keeping bugs alive suffers from thinking.

 

 

[Mig]

37 minutes ago, Hannes said:

My personal though is that it is misguided to look at Dao for the answer about getting rid of ants or not.

Borax works well.

 

on the topic of insects,

From the gimps of understanding I have, insects belong to a kingdom equal to plants.

And we should be in wonder of the beautiful part they play in the being that is our planet.

 

We tend our garden as we tend our house.

 

Thinking too much is a problem that stands in the way of being, and any teaching that speaks about keeping bugs alive suffers from thinking.

 

 

I still don't understand the rationale of Daoists or Buddhists about no killing precepts where in many instances you need to kill insects because of their intrusion. I am learning to live with them in the garden and so far we were in good understanding that I wouldn't bother them if they are in their territory in the garden but then sometimes they go to flowers in an orange tree or flowers and damages it, so have to find ways to diver them and indeed Borax works marvelous. I don't think too much as in the garden, I let nature do its thing, birds, insects, racoons, skunks, possums, coyotes and domestic pets do their thing. Just finding the balance and everyone is living their thing.

[natural]

9 hours ago, manitou said:

The SOB being the dog?

 

Yes

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

6 hours ago, Mig said:

I still don't understand the rationale of Daoists or Buddhists about no killing precepts where in many instances you need to kill insects because of their intrusion. I am learning to live with them in the garden and so far we were in good understanding that I wouldn't bother them if they are in their territory in the garden but then sometimes they go to flowers in an orange tree or flowers and damages it, so have to find ways to diver them and indeed Borax works marvelous. I don't think too much as in the garden, I let nature do its thing, birds, insects, racoons, skunks, possums, coyotes and domestic pets do their thing. Just finding the balance and everyone is living their thing.

 

It’s a matter of conscience. Buddha was alleged   to  have grown up sheltered (as many  are today) from nature’s conditions. This changes perspective on a deep level. I don’t know the whys of how Buddhists developed these ideas but it’s pretty easy to see how monks who don’t live normal lives could follow their heart to this conclusion. They are following their conscience, applying it fairly,Consistently to life. It’s easy to understand if you can stop putting your perspective in the way. Whether they’re right or wrong and the fact that it’s inconvenient or limiting or potentially dangerous to themselves or etc etc is all a different matter. . with this type of belief life can become uncomfortable to not follow your conscience. You might gladly trade inconvenience for piece of mind or ‘enlightenment’.

You definitely want to ask some Buddhists who practice this if you want their specific views on this...All anyone who hasn’t practiced this can do is give you a flat plane summary of a 3D subject.I’m not saying you are but  It’s good to not write off perspectives based on flat or biased summaries and focus what you can experience.  
 

As far as daoism is concerned, in my experience, any of the 2000 year+ old writings would be advising to not get caught up in contentions of what you can’t know. They would also be attempting to free you of a lot of dogma. Later sects, religious or otherwise seem to have their own varying interpretations.

[Taomeow]

8 hours ago, Mig said:

I still don't understand the rationale of Daoists or Buddhists about no killing precepts where in many instances you need to kill insects because of their intrusion.

 

Can't speak for buddhists but taoists are only opposed to unnecessary, wanton killing.  Taoists don't care much whether it's an insect or a tyrant -- they will kill if necessary, and not think twice about it, just like nature kills some mice because cats have to eat.  What nature doesn't do is kill a mouse for being a mouse, an ant for being an ant, a spider for being a spider.  I usually take a spider outside if caught in my house, but it has to cooperate and make it easy for me to catch it so as to spare its life.  If it crawls into a spot where I can't push a piece of paper under it and cover it with a glass turned upside down and carry it outside, I'll spray it with my homemade anti-spider biowarfare solution.  It is my house.     

Edited September 27, 2020 by Taomeow

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

though I can’t give a daoist  view, I can share an opinion and my current view which is definitely inspired by daoist writings. 
  
I think this topic and the topic of eating of animals is GREAT one for seeing and understanding human thought and how dynamic it is.

. Because the answer changes with the world,with people,with environments, with time. We can look back and forward, to rationality,logic, to our hearts, to this and that. We can see how identity plays its role in those who pick sides, those who latch on and make this decision part of their life’s work. How people can get caught up with their beliefs to the point they’re swept away. It is a topic that points out our conditional nature and one that shows us that we don’t know. 

 

It’s all hinging on culture and perspective. Some of your ancestors would’ve saw your problem as a blessing and made lunch. Humans are unique animals in this regard. We essentialLy create our nature through ideas interpretations and abstractions of events happening to us, much of which is inherited.  Even if we have some innate instinct, it can be masked with new ideas( positive or negative) which feel as though they are our nature. 
 

what does an ape do or different apes do? Does it clear all life from its home and set boundaries between it and the world? I honestly don’t know.. do people who lived in the forest or jungle do this? Do all of them? some people hold spiders, love spiders, eat spiders, differentiate threat levels of spiders, kill all spiders.  
 

We can say it’s natural to defend a threat. The question here is what is a threat? This would be the appeal to not killing them simply for intrusion. In this situation you probably have the luxury and burden of having a home (and considering a decent one) one  which is expensive, strong and labor intensive. Someone else may the the luxury and burden of having a home which is cheap not so labor intensive but relatively weak. Some have space, some have no space.. Our realities drive our perspective, drive our opinions, and then options.   All of it is an opinion and personal choice when someone is given the opportunity and wherewithall to choose . Logically something could be “right” but objectively who the hell knows. The tendency to follow the balance is fairly intuitive especially considering we owe our lives to it. 
 

Daoism to me and maybe only to me, Is encouraging the ability to SEE not to define or pretend on  things like this.

 

 

 

 

[Desmonddf]

a

Edited October 6, 2020 by Desmonddf
noticed i had posted the same thing a while ago

[Desmonddf]

On 19/09/2020 at 4:23 AM, Earl Grey said:

T.T. Liang once told Stuart Alve Olson that Confucians, Buddhists, and Taoists handle mosquitoes differently:

 

A Confucian would kill the mosquito because everything has its proper place and role in a hierarchy, and the mosquito has little significance to a man. 

 

A Buddhist would allow the mosquito to take some blood because everything deserves to live equally.

 

A Taoist will move if the mosquito keeps following him because it means that that place is the mosquito's and he will find his own place away from the mosquito.

 

Liang said sometimes he will be one of the three when appropriate. In the case of mosquitoes, he makes no hesitation to take the Confucian approach as he is not ever going to be strictly one or the other. 

 

I do like a certain story from a friend of mine. His master was doing zazen meditation with two others in front of their master. A scorpion crawled into the house. The three became afraid but tried at all costs not to do anything since they couldn't kill and certainly hadn't achieved the enlightened status buddha would have, which would make all animals love them and do them no harm.

 

The scorpion drew closer to them, and they simply couldn't meditate due to that. The master grabs a slipper and kills the scorpion, promptly disposing of its remains.

 

He them lectures then to return to their meditation. The lecture whent something like "you're worried because of karma? If you die now, not having meditated and done your practices, how much enlightenment will you forsake simply to avoid the karma of killing a scorpion?".

 

Somethimes it is a matter of being centered and grounded in reality. Are we really on the level of attainment where not killing the scorpion and potentialy being killed by it would make us go further on the Path than killing it and sitting down to meditate?

 

Or will we just squander that meditation opportunity in search of some level of great compassion we cannot achieve or even phantom yet?

Before trying to be a kung fu master, how about learning to clean the dojo first? Every person is at a certain step. Let's not be fanatical and lose sight of reality.