Direct Transmission

[Hypnoape]

I've noticed in reading about a variety of paths that many of them stress the importance of a direct interaction with someone who is his or herself enlightened.  Dzogchen seems extremely insistent upon this with the pointing out instruction, and even High Magick has its own version of it.  I know very well that all manner of people have awakened without the aid of anyone at all, so clearly it isn't a necessity, but this thought has become sticky for me.  I have a bit of a hang-up about it, because now I feel like this isn't something I ought to expect to be able to realize without coming into personal contact with a master and acquiring a taste their energy like some sort of spiritual mosquito lol.

 

I don't know any Zen masters or Lamas or realized yogis or secret chiefs or what have you, and I'm really not sure how I'd find one beyond going on some sort of expensive retreat with a famous guru or something.  On the other hand a part of me has the attitude of "if you think you have to meet a guru to be enlightened, then you do, if you don't think so, then you don't".  What are your all's thoughts on the role direct transmission plays in one's spiritual journey?

[Tesla3]

I think coming under the guidance of a master is very helpful. Or someone more spiritually advanced than you, even if they are a ways from the goal. Enlightenment is most often the culmination of many lives of spiritual practice. People that have instantaneous satori didn't hear about spirituality for the first in this life. They surely practiced many things in the past, and from many degrees of enlightened people. Maybe a master or two. For me me getting guidance has been helpful. I felt a little overwhelmed before following someone. Must be my temperament for now. Learning crap techniques from fake gurus/teachers is so common though. I know of two small Zen Sanghas within 100 miles of where I live. I would happily take dokusan from those teachers if I was practising Zen right now. 

[Takingcharge]

Im not an expert in any way. But from reading the many different experiences on here as well as my own issues.

 

id say forget even the mark of can i attain enlightenment by myself or not

 

Many many people going at it all solo seem to create chi deviations at some point and otherwise mess themselves up and get thoroughly lost.   The forum is definatly full of posts like that. Including some very strange ones where people refuse to acknowledge the deviations even though having clear symptoms and Refusing to listen then getting worse over the progression of the thread pages.

 

a good teacher, and the interaction with one is probably important for real progress in any serious endavour

my 2cents

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Takingcharge

[doc benway]

9 hours ago, Hypnoape said:

I've noticed in reading about a variety of paths that many of them stress the importance of a direct interaction with someone who is his or herself enlightened.  Dzogchen seems extremely insistent upon this with the pointing out instruction, and even High Magick has its own version of it.  I know very well that all manner of people have awakened without the aid of anyone at all, so clearly it isn't a necessity, but this thought has become sticky for me.  I have a bit of a hang-up about it, because now I feel like this isn't something I ought to expect to be able to realize without coming into personal contact with a master and acquiring a taste their energy like some sort of spiritual mosquito lol.

 

I don't know any Zen masters or Lamas or realized yogis or secret chiefs or what have you, and I'm really not sure how I'd find one beyond going on some sort of expensive retreat with a famous guru or something.  On the other hand a part of me has the attitude of "if you think you have to meet a guru to be enlightened, then you do, if you don't think so, then you don't".  What are your all's thoughts on the role direct transmission plays in one's spiritual journey?

 

In dzogchen, introduction to the Nature of Mind is considered critically important because it is not something anyone can give us or show us. It is up to us and there is only so much others can do to help. If the lama could transmit that to us in a consistent way, it would be easy but it doesn't work that way. It is already always a part of us but it is so close to us, so much a part of our mundane experience, that it is very easy to miss. And if we miss, even by a little bit, we miss completely. And if we miss, we can develop a negative relationship with the teachings and with the Dharma which is considered very negative karma for both student and teacher because guiding people to the Dharma is precious, it is the foundation of Mahayana Buddhism. Driving people away is the antithesis.

 

Transmission is mainly concerned with how the teachings are handed down and to whom. Transmission keeps the teachings pure and in the hands of people who are ready for them. It helps insure the students have the tools they need and know how to properly work with them. Introduction is more about doing everything needed to insure the student actually recognizes the Nature of Mind with precision, and knows how to practice to develop certainty and confidence in the practice and result. 

 

So anyone can recognize the essence of their mind. Most people get a taste from time to time whether they know it or not. But when the lama takes responsibility for making sure they "get it," that is considered a big deal. Nowadays, there are lamas offering pure and authentic guidance online and often for very reasonable prices or for free. There are lots of resources of this nature in Yungdrung Bön, the tradition I follow. If you're interested in specifics, I can offer some suggestions. 

 

Good luck!

[old3bob]

One analogy is that we are inside a shell,  like and egg shell and at some point that is not enough to satisfy one's being so we start to chip away at the shell from the inside to get out, (and may make some cracks that we can peak through) anyway that is part of the process but what helps a great deal is if someone who has broken their shell sees our state and also starts carefully chipping away on our shell from the outside where they can clearly see what is going on...(since they have already been there and done that)

 

Another analogy or fact is that when we reach out for help then a helping hand can reach out and take ours!   Such can not be denied as an active law.  

 

Btw. the term "mind" is used differently in different ways...(with there  being some major differences between the terms use in Buddhism and in Hinduism!)  so I suggest not letting those differences blow your mind.

 

 

[Hypnoape]

2 hours ago, steve said:

There are lots of resources of this nature in Yungdrung Bön, the tradition I follow. If you're interested in specifics, I can offer some suggestions.

I've just been checking out their website; I can't believe I hadn't heard of this tradition sooner, it's fascinating.

[dwai]

Both energy and states of mind are contagious. They affect each other. 
 

Have you ever noticed, if you walk into a room, sometimes you get an uneasy feeling, especially when there might be people already there that are hostile or angry/feeling strong negative emotions towards each other?  

 

The room literally starts to vibrate with a low frequency energy and if you stay in such a place too long, you will start getting negative thoughts too. 
 

conversely, if you go to a place where the people are very serene, spiritual minded and loving towards each other, a sense of great ease and relaxation eventually sets in your own mind. 
 

Direct transmission works that way. From one mind to another. Sometimes via energetics and sometimes directly mind to mind. 
 

In response to OP, that is how direct transmission works. 
 

It stems from this one fact, everything that is, is a modification of consciousness or awareness. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by dwai

[Limahong]

13 hours ago, Hypnoape said:

 ... a part of me has the attitude of   "if you think you have to meet a guru to be enlightened, then you do, if you don't think so, then you don't". 

 

Hi Hypnoape,

 

An interesting thread thus far.

 

But what pertains to "Direct Transmission"?

 

I will not be at the receiving end of any "transmissions" from anyone whom I have no prior interaction and trust.

 

It takes time to test/build/embrace/... understanding, respect, trust, confidence...

 

- Anand

 

[Limahong]

3 hours ago, Bhathen said:

Don't you think a Realised Being will know more about you than you know about yourself

 

No way. 

[old3bob]

a truly realized being is Spirit first,  (which is a knowing beyond regular knowing) thus nothing in anyone's mind or of their emotions can be hidden from Spirit - if needed...  "be careful what you ask for...", for such truth may strip one of all mental devices and reveal ones secrets of a lifetime,  many of which most of us would rather remain tucked away.  (or have basically forgotten from 50 or more years ago!)

Edited August 15, 2020 by old3bob

[mrpasserby]

,

Edited August 15, 2020 by mrpasserby

[forestofclarity]

I had the same hang ups. However, what I quickly realized that a teacher was a short-cut. A teacher has not only gone down the path, but if a part of a lineage also has the combined experience of thousands of yogis to draw on to help. I think if some one is serious about the path, they would certainly seek out a teacher sooner rather than later. The number of mistakes and errors we make are countless, and the sooner you connect with a genuine teacher, the less time you have to spend undoing past errors. 

 

From a Buddhist point of view, we already have connections to one lineage or another based on prior lives. I don't know if this is true, but it certainly appears to be true. Once you find the right tradition, it really opens everything up.

 

 

On 8/13/2020 at 7:27 PM, Hypnoape said:

I've noticed in reading about a variety of paths that many of them stress the importance of a direct interaction with someone who is his or herself enlightened.  Dzogchen seems extremely insistent upon this with the pointing out instruction, and even High Magick has its own version of it.  I know very well that all manner of people have awakened without the aid of anyone at all, so clearly it isn't a necessity, but this thought has become sticky for me.  I have a bit of a hang-up about it, because now I feel like this isn't something I ought to expect to be able to realize without coming into personal contact with a master and acquiring a taste their energy like some sort of spiritual mosquito lol.

 

I don't know any Zen masters or Lamas or realized yogis or secret chiefs or what have you, and I'm really not sure how I'd find one beyond going on some sort of expensive retreat with a famous guru or something.  On the other hand a part of me has the attitude of "if you think you have to meet a guru to be enlightened, then you do, if you don't think so, then you don't".  What are your all's thoughts on the role direct transmission plays in one's spiritual journey?