Was Lao Zi A Real Historic Human Being?

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Wayist said:

 

Taomeow, It seems like you have been around Daoism for a long while. Had you heard the story before about "the purple cloud" that was surrounding Lao Zi as he traveled to leave China?  Some of what you wrote I understand, some of it I do not. Do you believe this purple cloud story?  Might you be able to explain it to me, as beginner, and what it might mean to the Lao Zi/Dao de Jing story. I hope that I'm not trying to simplify this too much!.  Thank you to all who wrote about this!  Peace, Wayist

 

Thanks for asking -- yes, I do believe the story, since one way to interpret "purple cloud" is "purple qi."  Here's more regarding that legend: https://immortalmountain.wordpress.com/2017/02/11/purple-qi-from-the-east/

 

[Wayist]

Wow, that's an amazing website Taomeow! Thanks for sharing that with me!  It does help me to understand this Purple Qi story a lot better! Peace,  Wayist

[hermes]

Following Kirkland, Komjathy, and others I think "Laozi" was originally intended to mean Old Masters. As with many ancient texts, especially Chinese ones, it seems to be the product of several hands, compiled over several generations. I find this theory convincing: There was a certain genre of pithy verses of wisdom circulating widely by word of mouth in Chu by the 4th century BCE but dating back at least to the 5th, perhaps associated with wu shamans. These verses were gradually written down in different collections which later were reordered and combined by the mid-2nd century BCE to reach a form close to the received text. By this time a lot of legends had sprung up around the author of the Laozi based on a mistaken analogy with the many other "-zi"-titled texts which had a readily identifiable single (attributed) author. Given a paucity of reliable information, Sima Qian was forced to rely on these legends to synthesize his account of the author of the Laozi. This theory is based largely on the evidence from Guodian which preserves three of the source texts for what we now call the Laozi/Daodejing. Now, this theory doesn't account for Li Er/Dan. My gut says there was an historical Li Er who was head archivist in Zhou, but that he was mistakenly conflated with the legendary Laozi by the Simas or earlier tradition.

 

None of this detracts from the value of the Laozi/Daodejing. The content of the book stands on its own, regardless of whose words they are.

[Small Fur]

On 8/13/2020 at 9:51 PM, Wayist said:

I've asked this before. But I did not get an answer, so I'll ask again.  Do you feel that Lao Zi was a real, historic human being? As the author of the Dao de Jing (??), I would very much like to discuss this.  If you'd like to give it a go here, please write.  Thanks,  Peace Wayist

 

In Honor of the Xian Lao Tzu

 

 

Was Lao Tzu one or many? Was Lao Tzu a legend of myth or a mere mortal? Was Lao Tzu a noble man or a Blue Ox?

(...Who rode who home?)

 

These kinds of questions come about because people tend to think that the human is Real and that having been a human that most others could perceive, this acknowledgement then justifies and legitimizes the existence of a self: if we can see it, taste it, smell it, and even document it (!)... many, many times over; then we can justify it, and then it must be so. Thus, to an ordinary person what is human and of humanity is more "real" than an Immortal.

 

It is easy for the mind to mis-perceive existence and to confound the ideas of self.

 

From the perspective of one who has come to full enlightenment- that is one who is also an Immortal, the understanding of what comprises a 'self 'and thus, what makes something real has no bearing on its temporal forms.     

When you too are present in Yuan Shen, then you too will know the answer to this and thus also understand the confounded perspective of this question. You too will know what it means to all at once be and never have been. You will recognize what is to be Real and therefore, what is True: you will recognize the Immortal nature within Being.

Many sources guide the spiritual progress of existence- real and unreal, here and not here, all at once singular and yet many. But those sources which are True, are the most Real,  and in that knowledge and wisdom is the Immortal Being transcendent within experience and without justification. Therefore it is beneficial to live purely so as to become clear in Consciousness, and therefore not confuse the imagination of self from Original Being.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Small Fur