Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

[Apech]

"They found that about 8 per cent people who try meditation experience an unwanted effect. “People have experienced anything from an increase in anxiety up to panic attacks,” says Farias. They also found instances of psychosis or thoughts of suicide.

The figure of 8 per cent may be an underestimate, as many studies of meditation record only serious negative effects or don’t record them at all, says Farias.

Katie Sparks, a chartered psychologist and a member of the British Psychological Society, says the figure could have been pushed up by people trying out meditation because of undiagnosed anxiety or depression. “Meditation has been found to help people to relax and refocus and help them both mentally and physically,” she says.

 

But sometimes when people are trying to still their thoughts, the mind can “rebel”, she says. “It’s like a backlash to the attempt to control the mind, and this results in an episode of anxiety or depression,” she says."

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2251840-mindfulness-and-meditation-can-worsen-depression-and-anxiety/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1597411724

[Rara]

I vouch for this. Meditation is horrible when things are not good. When things are, then it works like it should, but it's situation depending.

[dwai]

It is normal to experience one’s own demons during meditation, especially in the early-intermediate stages.  That is why a good teacher and a supportive practice group (sangha) can be helpful. 

[zerostao]

Yep, it's  part of the reason why I quit teaching out anything a few years back. Even some qigongs and similar practices; its easy enough to correct physical structure in postures, the mental deviations can be another matter.

Having a physical practice like tai chi balances well with meditation. 

And meditation has a wealth of benefits including strengthening immune system. 

However, no matter how safe any particular style is generally, there is no magic pill that works for everyone. Its probably a big reason the old school teachers took years getting to know their students before passing on certain practices. 

I was lucky, I did have one student who had a mental disorder, unknown to me until it became very noticeable, others thought that student just became over the top annoying and demanding attention. But there was an underlying issue that meditation was amplifying. 

A close fellow teacher did have a student choose suicide and I quit showing anything to anyone except seasoned veterans, like 20 years experience with these practices.

 

[Miroku]

It is quite well known to be honest. This is why many if not most traditions start with some sort of preparation for the meditation. What people are experiencing comes from wrong technique, instruction and/or wrong mindset. Such things as meditator's disease are quite well known in buddhism. It is easy for people to increase their nervousness and spin themselves into depression and sometimes even to madness through simply being too uptight.

 

It is one of the reasons why i think people should not do mindfulness but focus more on mettá loving kindness meditation. You don't have to focus that much, you don't have ot face yourself that much and you mostly reprogram your setting to accepting yourself and others with love and care. It is known to prevent mental health issues and even reduce PTSD. But ... loving each other is not profitable and doesn't create space for creating mindless workers in offices. 

[zerostao]

Right, and you could think who is going to argue against loving kindness, although I've seen it criticized, almost ridiculed. You bring up a few good points @Miroku one being no profit comes from it. Its not as bad as it used to be here on TDB when hordes of new members arrived demanding only the most powerful systems replete with super powers and oh by the way they were very busy and probably couldn't devote much time to it. 

Not one of them had the slightest clue what power is. Those are imo exactly who would be at risk in the way we're discussing here. There is always a handy peddler available to "serve" the hordes. 

 The bright news is there is profit in loving kindness and this site and this world does have those kind here as well as everyone else. Honestly, it'd be just as easy to sling some un grounded person flying across a room using kindness. As odd as that may sound  

Works like a charm, really. The hard part is getting folks to buy into it. 

The kinda wealth and power id like to have more of.

[RiverSnake]

Meditation and Energy Work is designed to bring up the gunk. It is good policy to have a skilled healer on hand to smooth out the road. Shooting the difficulty meter to 11 right at the outset of practice can be overwhelming an unhealthy.  

[doc benway]

A young woman who lives a few hours from me ended her life immediately following a Goenka vipassana retreat a few years back.

It caused a brief stir, a few magazine articles...

 

If I teach anyone anything about meditation (and I've been doing some lately), I bring up mental health in the beginning.

If there is a history of mental illness, depression, drug use, abuse, etc... we need to have a plan of where to turn for support.

Meditation exposes and thereby weakens the defense mechanisms we use to keep our demons at bay.

We all have some.

 

First - if we practice long enough to have any success, our inner chatter quiets and we feel some relief, some space, some relaxing and settling. That's what most folks are looking for and that's enough for them...

...but they can't always control how deep they go or what's waiting to show up.

 

Second - we intentionally turn inward, towards where those demons live.

We normally turn away... to ANYTHING but what it's like to simply be quiet, with ourself.

And we are so much more disconnected now than ever with our plethora of distractions.

If we continue to progress in our practice we turn on a light in that darkness, maybe for the first time in a long time... or ever.

 

No surprise it can "make the mental illness worse."

It can also lead to depersonalization experiences which very some are sensitive to, as the things we normally identify with are seen to not be "who we really are." Some form of that depersonalization experience is a predictable part of the path. It can be Divine or it can be horrific, depending on one's karma, maybe a little of both.

 

My Dao meditation teacher told his students that we all carry the imprints of everything we've been exposed to in life. 

At some point we must face them all... for most that happens at the time of death when we're weak and vulnerable hand have neither the tools or resources to process. He also felt that the very high rate of suicide in the elderly is related to this.

Choosing to do this work now, while we are healthy and prepared and motivated is a much better way.

 

 

 

[RiverSnake]

Having a skilled diviner on hand is useful. The future isn't set in stone. Being able to spot challenges, small or fatal, is of profound value and then knowing how to act in the present to remedy said speed bumps is key. Taoists use the Iching, but many other systems exist. This is how you prevent a problem before it even arises.  

[Apech]

I think that one problem is that preliminaries - relax the body, calm the mind - are confused with the actual practice.  If you read the lives of masters of any tradition they are filled with trials and tribulations, they are usually assaulted by demons at some stage and may go through stages of physical and mental illness.  Their aspiration is high and their goal of enlightenment or immortality immeasurably profound.  How this relates to:

- time out from a busy schedule

- feeling better about 'me'

- improving relationships (!)

and so on, beats me.

 

The mindfulness movement is at worst a dangerous money making con - and at best just a way of getting short naps.

[forestofclarity]

Probably better if people don't try to still their thoughts, but rather learn to relax with thoughts. 

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

But sometimes when people are trying to still their thoughts, the mind can “rebel”, she says. “It’s like a backlash to the attempt to control the mind, and this results in an episode of anxiety or depression,” she says."

 

[freeform]

I think 8% is very conservative. 
 

Many people either don’t practice enough, or aren’t ‘doing it right’... and if they did, a lot more of them would have problems.

 

I think if people did it ‘right’, we’d see more like 25% with relatively serious issues.

 

Yet everyone is trying to bring meditation into classrooms, boardrooms and so on. 

[Miroku]

@zerostao Yeah, people can argue against many things. People can skip many steps, when their meditation sends them flying into polstered white room, wellp. What can be done then. And you are right loving kindness is extremely powerful. That is why Buddha prescribed it for nightmares, demon attacks, etc. People want to push and make others fly across the room, or astral project, or scan people for energy or any sort of nonsense. That is all fine it just seems silly to me when simple smile and affection towards others are the best siddhi. Ah, my inner hippie got out again! Darn it!

@steve Yeah, many of this comes from folks misunderstanding what meditation does. It is less about finding happiness in our lovely cesspool of suffering and more about facing the fact we are swimming in a sewage water. This misunderstanding then often draws in people who would do better with some small amount of therapy.

[Miroku]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

I think 8% is very conservative. 
 

Many people either don’t practice enough, or aren’t ‘doing it right’... and if they did, a lot more of them would have problems.

 

I think if people did it ‘right’, we’d see more like 25% with relatively serious issues.

 

Yet everyone is trying to bring meditation into classrooms, boardrooms and so on. 

Yeah, it can be problematic. I think more than meditation loving kindness would work better (as I already said), or just some simple method of relaxing tensions and bringing the awerness to us. To self-reflect bit more or just simply connect with the body. That is all. It can do quite wonders. We did simple stretching exercises at our drama class at HS and simple act of bringing yourself to your body can do a big difference.

[doc benway]

 

I think the picture is a little bigger and would like to flesh it out with some counter-points.

My apologies if I am misunderstanding or projecting Apech...

 

22 minutes ago, Apech said:

I think that one problem is that preliminaries - relax the body, calm the mind - are confused with the actual practice. 

Preliminaries can also be actual practice, once we make a certain degree of progress in them.

 

22 minutes ago, Apech said:

If you read the lives of masters of any tradition they are filled with trials and tribulations, they are usually assaulted by demons at some stage and may go through stages of physical and mental illness.  Their aspiration is high and their goal of enlightenment or immortality immeasurably profound.

Good point and important to show us the connection of practice to our real lives, not just our imaginary aspirations, expectations, and projections.

 

22 minutes ago, Apech said:

  How this relates to:

- time out from a busy schedule

- feeling better about 'me'

- improving relationships (!)

and so on, beats me.

Practice needs to touch our real lives, whatever that may mean. 

Navigating our busy schedules and how to integrate meaningful practice is real and important in our lives.

Feeling better about 'me' is quite important. If we are self-deprecating pieces of shit, we can't very well generate much in the way of devotion, confidence, commitment, compassion, etc... Our modern lives are full of stressors that disconnect us, that cause anxiety, insecurity, tension, etc... Nothing wrong with first getting us to a place where we have some self respect and self esteem and work from there.

Bad relationships can poison our lives. The old way was to run off to the monastery or a cave. That's great if you can do it. You'll also find bad relationships in the monastery. And most of us can't retreat like that very often or very long. So we need to work with what is in our lives and that includes relationships. In fact, Bodhicitta practice must include those closest to us. Otherwise it becomes a fabrication of loving "all sentient beings" - that group is easy to love, siblings, co-workers, spouses, parents not always as easy...

 

22 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

The mindfulness movement is at worst a dangerous money making con - and at best just a way of getting short naps.

I think there is far more potential value in the mindfulness movement than short naps. Many people find value and take it in the right direction with good support. I think you're being a bit too critical of the "movement." No question there is corruption and opportunism as well as materialism among the teachers and students alike. But that is us, not an inherent fault in mindfulness practice, IMO. 

[ilumairen]

33 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

Probably better if people don't try to still their thoughts, but rather learn to relax with thoughts. 

As I was giving this a bit of space for contemplation to see what would arise, a great crack of thunder resounded a moment after lightning split the sky. A moment of startled pristine clarity, and then the mind creating correlation and meaning.

[Apech]

58 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I think the picture is a little bigger and would like to flesh it out with some counter-points.

My apologies if I am misunderstanding or projecting Apech...

 

Preliminaries can also be actual practice, once we make a certain degree of progress in them.

 

Shamatha or similar type of practice (depending on system) is real practice and can even give rise to realisations and siddhis.  But the point is that it is not taught in isolation to help relaxation.  It is taught with view (on emptiness etc) and conduct - sila, precepts, and various vows and so on which serve to strengthen the subtle body and tranfer any realisation into action.

 

58 minutes ago, steve said:

Good point and important to show us the connection of practice to our real lives, not just our imaginary aspirations, expectations, and projections.

 

Practice needs to touch our real lives, whatever that may mean. 

Navigating our busy schedules and how to integrate meaningful practice is real and important in our lives.

Feeling better about 'me' is quite important. If we are self-deprecating pieces of shit, we can't very well generate much in the way of devotion, confidence, commitment, compassion, etc... Our modern lives are full of stressors that disconnect us, that cause anxiety, insecurity, tension, etc... Nothing wrong with first getting us to a place where we have some self respect and self esteem and work from there.

Bad relationships can poison our lives. The old way was to run off to the monastery or a cave. That's great if you can do it. You'll also find bad relationships in the monastery. And most of us can't retreat like that very often or very long. So we need to work with what is in our lives and that includes relationships. In fact, Bodhicitta practice must include those closest to us. Otherwise it becomes a fabrication of loving "all sentient beings" - that group is easy to love, siblings, co-workers, spouses, parents not always as easy...

 

This area, in Buddhism anyway (I don't know about Bon) is approach through lojong - mind training - which focuses on putting others first, developing paramitas and practices like metta and tonglen.  You probably do end up feeling better about 'me' in some sense but mostly because there is less 'me' in the situation.  Relationships take care of themselves as practice gains strength and one becomes more generous of spirit, patient and so on - and particularly as bodhicitta develops,

 

58 minutes ago, steve said:

I think there is far more potential value in the mindfulness movement than short naps. Many people find value and take it in the right direction with good support. I think you're being a bit too critical of the "movement." No question there is corruption and opportunism as well as materialism among the teachers and students alike. But that is us, not an inherent fault in mindfulness practice, IMO. 

 

Maybe I am being critical - but I feel there a huge dangers in stripping out the technique of meditation from its context as I illustrate above (I hope).

[idquest]

When people do yoga asanas, 100% of those people will hurt themselves to a lesser or greater degree. None of them faces any demons and such, this is just a natural way of training: you train your body - you will likely get hurt.

 

When people are physically disabled or have some physical disadvantages and they want to do yoga or taiji, they will approach it with certain caution just because this is obvious.

 

Why on earth meditation would be different from yoga asanas or any other physical exercises? Even more, if you think of it, the brain and the mind are fine tuned parts of our bodies and literally are pinnacle of the evolution on the planet. Still, random people jump the bandwagon and do whatever current fad meditation technique is there.

 

Is it about internal demons? I don't think so. This is about a common sense and weighing one's capabilities with training challenges along the way. 

 

Start with physical, move step by step to more subtle, and then combine physical (asanas or taiji what's in your heart) with mind work. Otherwise, purely mind work is just a certain way to a disaster. 

[Limahong]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

“It’s like a backlash to the attempt to control the mind, and this results in an episode of anxiety or depression,”

 

Hi Apech,

 

I think it is not natural or possible for me to control the mind.

 

To partake in the unnatural or impossible will lead to imbalances.

 

I accept that I am impermanent as I am not the same person ~ moment to moment.

 

So I embrace whoever I am momentarily.

 

To me meditation is a meditation with myself to accept and love my ever changing self.

 

I grow like an apple tree... with and in the elements.

 

- Anand

 

[doc benway]

35 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Shamatha or similar type of practice (depending on system) is real practice and can even give rise to realisations and siddhis.  But the point is that it is not taught in isolation to help relaxation.  It is taught with view (on emptiness etc) and conduct - sila, precepts, and various vows and so on which serve to strengthen the subtle body and tranfer any realisation into action.

 

 

This area, in Buddhism anyway (I don't know about Bon) is approach through lojong - mind training - which focuses on putting others first, developing paramitas and practices like metta and tonglen.  You probably do end up feeling better about 'me' in some sense but mostly because there is less 'me' in the situation.  Relationships take care of themselves as practice gains strength and one becomes more generous of spirit, patient and so on - and particularly as bodhicitta develops,

 

 

Maybe I am being critical - but I feel there a huge dangers in stripping out the technique of meditation from its context as I illustrate above (I hope).

 

I don’t disagree with any of the above.

It’s an important and legitimate criticism and context. I appreciate you endorsing the pure Dharma.  I needed to find that myself, which I did in Bön. And there is also a hopeful feeling and a prayer in my heart that the West can learn and grow from contact with the teachings even without embracing the ‘whole enchilada.’ My root teacher has explored how to get the necessary components into a more secular and accessible package for Westerners. I think it’s possible to benefit without necessarily embracing it all but it does take an extra level of responsibility and care. Same goes for Daoist teachings. Far fewer opportunities for Daoists to get transmission from credible sources.

[dwai]

A very key piece of information that’s missing for most people is that “thoughts” don’t belong to anyone. Thoughts rise and sink back into the collective subconscious  (universal mind). What is different from person to person is the proclivity to certain types of thoughts based on conditioning (this life and past lives).

 

The “demons” are not the thoughts themselves but the patterns of (karmic) conditioning that attract those thoughts. 
 

Rejecting them makes them stronger, ignoring them doesn’t eliminate them. They arise for a reason, but people are unaware of why. They are an opportunity to “cleanse” the conditioning, to let go. For letting go, first step is acceptance followed by understanding. 

[old3bob]

simply put: many methods or techniques related to meditation (and even just the physical)  generate or release energy, so if we have unsolved or poorly handled problems at the same time those will also end up getting increased energy...thus the importance of preparation or cleaning house that has been brought up here in several ways.   

 

there is also this warning in a Christian parable about a house (soul) that has been cleaned up YET there is still potential danger: 

 

When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he roams through waterless places in search of rest; and finding none, he says, “I will return to my house which I left.” And when he has come to it, he finds the place swept and clean. Then he goes and takes seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse that the first (Lk 11:24-25).

 

[Rara]

On 15/08/2020 at 2:47 PM, zerostao said:

Yep, it's  part of the reason why I quit teaching out anything a few years back. Even some qigongs and similar practices; its easy enough to correct physical structure in postures, the mental deviations can be another matter.

Having a physical practice like tai chi balances well with meditation. 

And meditation has a wealth of benefits including strengthening immune system. 

However, no matter how safe any particular style is generally, there is no magic pill that works for everyone. Its probably a big reason the old school teachers took years getting to know their students before passing on certain practices. 

I was lucky, I did have one student who had a mental disorder, unknown to me until it became very noticeable, others thought that student just became over the top annoying and demanding attention. But there was an underlying issue that meditation was amplifying. 

A close fellow teacher did have a student choose suicide and I quit showing anything to anyone except seasoned veterans, like 20 years experience with these practices.

 

 

Yes, my tai chi teacher in England won't teach meditation, saying it's too risky and quotes the "qigong madness". Bearing in mind that most in my class are 50+, they get what they need just coming along and going through the motions. Our qigong is quite basic, relaxing with no real intensity...unlike the Longmen Pai qigong I do which puts me on another planet - so I only do that on a really empty day.

 

Meditation I learnt with Longmen was wonderful when there, but I couldn't sustain it for long when back home. Too many distractions and it is such a discipline that it started stressing me out not being able to get back to "that place". These days, I use it on and off when I feel it necessary, but I would much rather do it in the safety of their presence, or as a regular practice maybe when I'm retired.

 

Back to my teacher here, she does say just going for a lie down for 45 mins in a dark room does more good. Maybe stick some music on, if you ask me.

[Rara]

On 15/08/2020 at 4:32 PM, steve said:

A young woman who lives a few hours from me ended her life immediately following a Goenka vipassana retreat a few years back.

It caused a brief stir, a few magazine articles...

 

If I teach anyone anything about meditation (and I've been doing some lately), I bring up mental health in the beginning.

If there is a history of mental illness, depression, drug use, abuse, etc... we need to have a plan of where to turn for support.

Meditation exposes and thereby weakens the defense mechanisms we use to keep our demons at bay.

We all have some.

 

First - if we practice long enough to have any success, our inner chatter quiets and we feel some relief, some space, some relaxing and settling. That's what most folks are looking for and that's enough for them...

...but they can't always control how deep they go or what's waiting to show up.

 

Second - we intentionally turn inward, towards where those demons live.

We normally turn away... to ANYTHING but what it's like to simply be quiet, with ourself.

And we are so much more disconnected now than ever with our plethora of distractions.

If we continue to progress in our practice we turn on a light in that darkness, maybe for the first time in a long time... or ever.

 

No surprise it can "make the mental illness worse."

It can also lead to depersonalization experiences which very some are sensitive to, as the things we normally identify with are seen to not be "who we really are." Some form of that depersonalization experience is a predictable part of the path. It can be Divine or it can be horrific, depending on one's karma, maybe a little of both.

 

My Dao meditation teacher told his students that we all carry the imprints of everything we've been exposed to in life. 

At some point we must face them all... for most that happens at the time of death when we're weak and vulnerable hand have neither the tools or resources to process. He also felt that the very high rate of suicide in the elderly is related to this.

Choosing to do this work now, while we are healthy and prepared and motivated is a much better way.

 

 

 

 

This was deep, thank you. Could you go more into "depesonalization" with examples?

[Rara]

On 15/08/2020 at 5:21 PM, Miroku said:

To self-reflect bit more or just simply connect with the body. That is all.

 

Indeed. Simple time outs to understand situations and other perspectives is very useful. I used to have a counsellor, which was great but now I don't, a bit of time talking things out with myself does the trick haha