Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

[Rara]

10 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

 

When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he roams through waterless places in search of rest; and finding none, he says, “I will return to my house which I left.” And when he has come to it, he finds the place swept and clean. Then he goes and takes seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse that the first (Lk 11:24-25).

 

 

Yeah, I made a pact with the devil in me. He gets to stay, just has to shut up at the most important of times. I can entertain him when I'm alone.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Rara

[ilumairen]

23 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

This was deep, thank you. Could you go more into "depesonalization" with examples?

Here as an article on the young woman I believe he was referring to (which may provide some of what you are looking for):

 

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/06/york_county_suicide_megan_vogt.html

[liminal_luke]

Years ago, I made a deal with myself that I was going to sit and meditate every day for some ridiculously short period of time, maybe three minutes.  Morning passed and it was getting on late afternoon and still I didn´t want to meditate and I couldn´t figure out why.  It was only three minutes -- what was wrong with me?  Finally, I just forced myself.  I sat down and closed my eyes and immediately broke out in tears.  Oh...so that´s why I didn´t want to meditate.

Edited August 16, 2020 by liminal_luke

[Rara]

32 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Here as an article on the young woman I believe he was referring to (which may provide some of what you are looking for):

 

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/06/york_county_suicide_megan_vogt.html

 

Thanks, evem though that was a grim read, it's worth noting.

 

I am moreso wondering what is meant by "depersonalization" in particular.

[ilumairen]

30 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

Thanks, evem though that was a grim read, it's worth noting.

 

I am moreso wondering what is meant by "depersonalization" in particular.

What was knit together over a lifetime creating a sense of self, unravels, and can bring .. well just about anything from a feeling of freedom to abject horror I suppose.

 

I look forward to reading @steve’s response.

[idiot_stimpy]

Mediation is a good way of releasing traumatic experiences and emotions.

 

Sometimes it's tough, but if the energy is watched and allowed to rise and dissipate you will feel better as that energy is liberated.

[doc benway]

There are 3 general types that come to mind which I’m sure can be elaborated further -

 

- nihilistic depersonalization: I do not exist, I am worthless, I am nothing, ... existing only in the intellectual grasping at emptiness or a dissociative state leading to disconnection.

 

- eternalistic depersonalization: I am God, I am all powerful and all knowing, you must submit to MY supreme will.... less common but can be seen in pschopathies and narcissistic PD. Disconnected from reality testing.

 

- Awakening: having the experience of being as unbounded self-aware presence, Rigpa. There is a very distinct and permanent change in personal identification with exuberance and profound bliss but no loss of reality testing. There is absolute spaciousness occupied by no one and yet complete connection and integration is there, nothing whatsoever is lacking - the Great Perfection...

Bodhicitta is spontaneous 

 

So some degree of depersonalization is expected but needs to be balanced with grounding in direct and precise practice and support when necessary.

[doc benway]

38 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

What was knit together over a lifetime creating a sense of self, unravels, and can bring .. well just about anything from a feeling of freedom to abject horror I suppose.

 

Well said, and much of the thread and knots used for the knitting are rotten or undependable so sometimes the unraveling can be frustratingly slow only to drop off a cliff when a chunk comes apart fast. You need a Refuge of some sort to identify with or some other form of support. That is the basis of the way my teacher presents the 3 Doors teachings, I suspect. The focus is on the connection of Refuge, not the disconnection of emptiness which is often emphasized in sutric teachings.

[dwai]

 

30 minutes ago, steve said:

 

So some degree of depersonalization is expected but needs to be balanced with grounding in direct and precise practice and support when necessary.

One big change I notice is the cessation of “personal” ambition. That can be quite difficult to navigate as a householder. 
 

In Advaita Vedanta there are two types of renunciation — 

 

• the renunciation of the seeker 
• the renunciation of the awakened 

When one doesn’t give up samsaric connections in their quest, thereby remaining a householder (or at least an active member of the transactional world), there will arise a deep sense of renunciation after awakening. That can be hard to reconcile against the demands of the transactional world for a while. 

 

[doc benway]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

 

One big change I notice is the cessation of “personal” ambition. That can be quite difficult to navigate as a householder. 
 

In Advaita Vedanta there are two types of renunciation — 

 

• the renunciation of the seeker 
• the renunciation of the awakened 

When one doesn’t give up samsaric connections in their quest, thereby remaining a householder (or at least an active member of the transactional world), there will arise a deep sense of renunciation after awakening. That can be hard to reconcile against the demands of the transactional world for a while. 

 

 

Hence the 4 stages of a Hindu life...

I struggle with it as well but I think navigating that is simply our path, unless we choose another.

[forestofclarity]

I feel the same way. Spirituality is definitely not for the ambitious, at least in my experience.

 

 

39 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

One big change I notice is the cessation of “personal” ambition. That can be quite difficult to navigate as a householder. 

 

 

[ilumairen]

11 minutes ago, Bhathen said:

You have written the experience very beautifully @steve

 

I was coming out from personal issues in life with the help of a mindfulness teacher(awakened through Vipassana). Unable to bear the pain and suffering surrounding me, attended a Vipassana retreat on her advice.

 

What you described above was what I felt in the session. Profound experience with full awareness of what was happening.

 

After the session, your description fits exactly...

I would say even depression and anxiety are emotions. There were no emotions. Your mind is so used to feeling something,that when there is nothing going on, you don't know what to do.

 

Had a teacher and master to help out a little and tried hard to ground myself. You just have to hang in there. Detachment and a constant battle of knowing what was my purpose in life.

 

It went deep down before the transformation started upwards.

steve, some time ago now, actually very gently and with very heart felt and carefully composed words helped guide me out of my own tendency towards nihilism.. and the “answer” was actually going deeper into emptiness where warmth naturally arises..

 

He is pretty awesome like that..

[Mandrake]

On 15/08/2020 at 5:32 PM, steve said:

A young woman who lives a few hours from me ended her life immediately following a Goenka vipassana retreat a few years back.

It caused a brief stir, a few magazine articles...

 

 

 

From my experience working with people with mental unhealth, I could bet my house that she would have committed suicide even if she hand't attended that Goenka retreat.

They, the Goenka organisation, even have clauses dissuading people with mental issues to attend.

 

I understand that this isn't necessarily counter to what you intend to convey. Some practices are meant for people with a normal psychological build, a sense of stability and resilience. The cultural context also plays a big deal where a person in the East probably have heard and felt the concepts of non-self, nirvana etc. whereas the taste of such may be completely alien to a Westerner with a different cultural baggage.

 

 

M

[Rara]

8 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

I feel the same way. Spirituality is definitely not for the ambitious, at least in my experience.

 

 

 

 

Unless you're Steve Jobs. Er. Yeah. 😝😂

[Rara]

4 hours ago, Mandrake said:

 

From my experience working with people with mental unhealth, I could bet my house that she would have committed suicide even if she hand't attended that Goenka retreat.

They, the Goenka organisation, even have clauses dissuading people with mental issues to attend.

 

I understand that this isn't necessarily counter to what you intend to convey. Some practices are meant for people with a normal psychological build, a sense of stability and resilience. The cultural context also plays a big deal where a person in the East probably have heard and felt the concepts of non-self, nirvana etc. whereas the taste of such may be completely alien to a Westerner with a different cultural baggage.

 

 

M

 

And of course, if one isn't aware of having mental health problems and is not showing any sign, then Goenka isn't to know of course. But this is the risk of being in the "alternative therapy" business.

 

"Psychics" that do what they do for a living...legally they have to go down as an entertainment business to help avoid accountability. Therapies can't do this, so this is why I'm very careful and advocate teachers who have less bold claims and are not trying to really sell anything.

[Limahong]

On 8/15/2020 at 7:58 PM, Apech said:

Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

 

Hi Apech,

 

There are two components to the thread ~ mindfulness and meditation.

 

Are they synonymous?

 

To me ~ mindfulness has a certain lightness of being... going forward.

 

- Anand

 

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Apech,

 

There are two components to the thread ~ mindfulness and meditation.

 

Are they synonymous?

 

To me ~ mindfulness has a certain lightness of being... going forward.

 

- Anand

 

 

I guess they go hand in hand - what do you think?

[Limahong]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

I guess they go hand in hand - what do you think? (I)

 

Hi Apech,

 

Yes ~ mindfulness and meditation may go hand in hand but I am inclined to differentiate the two broadly without splitting hair.

 

As this is a Taoist forum ~ I will contain my differentiation within the realm of Taoism.

 

To me mindfulness of Taoism is a broad understanding of it as a philosophy... The Way.

 

Whereas meditation within Taoism may pertain to more specific paths within... The Way.

 

- Anand

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[old3bob]

"mind"  can be known as the first and the last THING to manifest; also as a great machine (or wheel if you prefer) operating on laws.  What is the machine's give unto the machine and what is the Spirits give unto Spirit. 

[Limahong]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

I guess they go hand in hand - what do you think? (II)

 

5 hours ago, Limahong said:

To me mindfulness of Taoism is a broad understanding of it as a philosophy... The Way.

Whereas meditation within Taoism may pertain to more specific paths within... The Way.

 

Good morning Apech,

 

When mindfulness and meditation go hand in hand and yet can be differentiated as The Way and path respectively ~ can I meditate and be mindful... that I can overcome depression and anxiety... if I am finding a path and way to be less depressed/anxious?

 

- Anand

 

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

 

Good morning Apech,

 

When mindfulness and meditation go hand in hand and yet can be differentiated as The Way and path respectively ~ can I meditate and be mindful... that I can overcome depression and anxiety... if I am finding a path and way to be less depressed/anxious?

 

- Anand

 

 

Good evening Anand,

 

Why are people depressed and anxious?

 

What is the cause of this human condition?

 

- Apech

[Limahong]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

Why are people depressed and anxious?

 

Hi Apech,

 

I really do not know why others are depressed or anxious.

 

But I do know now... after many years of living/searching/... there is a way/path out of such negative mental states.

 

8 minutes ago, Apech said:

What is the cause of this human condition?

 

Instead of 'cause' ~ can we think of a 'course' to get out of depression and anxiety?

 

Please respond  with ~ "But of course!"

 

- Anand

 

[Limahong]

7 minutes ago, Limahong said:

"But of course!"

 

Hi Apech,

 

Thank you for responding thus ...   

 

Now at least both of us are not depressed or anxious?

 

- Anand

 

 

[Apech]

13 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Apech,

 

Thank you for responding thus ...   

 

Now at least both of us are not depressed or anxious?

 

- Anand

 

 

 

But of course.

[Apech]

55 minutes ago, Bhathen said:

How are the different kinds of feelings and emotions generated?

 

 

They arise from imprints in the alya-vijnana (storehouse consciousness) being triggered by events.  The imprints are karmic 'seeds' which if negative arise from past events/experiences which comprised threats to the organism of some kind.