Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

[Apech]

41 minutes ago, Bhathen said:

Thanks @Apech.

Just trying to get a better understanding here. 

 

Are the imprints stored in the physical body and is that one reason Vipasana is a kind of body-scan meditation?

 

Do all other kinds of mediation also comb through the storehouse of consciousness to find the 'seeds' or does the primary objective of different kinds of meditation vary?

 

 

These are only my understandings so be advised. (!)

 

Actually in an experiential sense imprints are stored in the body but in essence they are stored in mind (citta) itself.  Alaya means something like 'possessing' consciousness and is actually an aspect of the nature of mind which has this quality of being a perfect recording material - like protoplasm - on which the records of experience can be imprinted.  The usual analogy is that of fragrance - so for instance if you put a cloth in a drawer with a bottle of perfume after a few days the cloth smells of the perfume - even though the nature of the cloth has not changed.  (this is an analogy only because obviously if you understand chemistry there has been an interaction).

 

There are various forms of vipsana which include a body scan - but this is usually an exercise in looking for 'self' - to convince yourself it is not located somewhere.

 

It's not that you comb the storehouse consciousness exactly - but more as your practice deepens you loosen the grip of waking analytic consciousness and manas (the self attaching consciousness) such that whatever is in the alaya sort of starts bubbling up. 

 

In Buddhism you just let these things come and go - but in some systems you might work on some of this recorded material to release energy from it - it depends on the school/system you are practising.

[EmeraldHead]

Also, if I understand this correctly, Alaya and Manas are Sambogakaya, with Alaya being "higher". Below them you have the 5 senses or body (sensory deprivation tank and trance - there is no body without senses) and what normal people call mind, as "higher" to the 5 senses.

 

I think some say Alaya is actually Dharmakaya, others say there is a 9th consciousness which is the Dharmakaya, but since it doesn't "do" anything, clearing Alaya is like clearing the mirror that is the 9th.

 

So sambogakaya is pure cognition without any feeling or momentum (or 'emotion') or relation to something else (another previous thought).

Is it in the body [as some may call it - "bodymind"] ? Nope. It is....

[forestofclarity]

Exhausting the alaya one "seed" at a time would take forever. Most Buddhist vehicles have a fundamental approach to cutting at the root of the problem, which is ignorance. How that is accomplished depends on the tradition. 

 

6 hours ago, Bhathen said:

Do all other kinds of mediation also comb through the storehouse of consciousness to find the 'seeds' or does the primary objective of different kinds of meditation vary?

 

 

Sounds a bit mixed up. What tradition are you practicing? Are you learning from a lineage, or DITY?

 

1 hour ago, EmeraldHead said:

Also, if I understand this correctly, Alaya and Manas are Sambogakaya, with Alaya being "higher". Below them you have the 5 senses or body (sensory deprivation tank and trance - there is no body without senses) and what normal people call mind, as "higher" to the 5 senses.

 

I think some say Alaya is actually Dharmakaya, others say there is a 9th consciousness which is the Dharmakaya, but since it doesn't "do" anything, clearing Alaya is like clearing the mirror that is the 9th.

 

So sambogakaya is pure cognition without any feeling or momentum (or 'emotion') or relation to something else (another previous thought).

Is it in the body [as some may call it - "bodymind"] ? Nope. It is....

 

[forestofclarity]

It sounds like he/she/they is referring to Theravada style vipassana. 

 

5 hours ago, Apech said:

There are various forms of vipsana which include a body scan - but this is usually an exercise in looking for 'self' - to convince yourself it is not located somewhere.

 

[Limahong]

56 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

Exhausting the alaya one "seed" at a time would take forever.

 

Hi forestofemptiness,

 

That is why reincarnation/karma are cyclically linked?

 

56 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

Most Buddhist vehicles have a fundamental approach to cutting at the root of the problem, which is ignorance.

 

The significance of experiential living/learning/knowing/... they can liberate us from depression/anxiety/...?

 

Forest of emptiness...

 

- Anand

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Limahong
Correction

[EmeraldHead]

11 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

What tradition are you practicing? Are you learning from a lineage, or DITY?

Not a school/lineage of buddhism. You could say on my own / DITY.

How do you see it?

Edited August 19, 2020 by EmeraldHead

[Apech]

13 hours ago, EmeraldHead said:

Also, if I understand this correctly, Alaya and Manas are Sambogakaya, with Alaya being "higher". Below them you have the 5 senses or body (sensory deprivation tank and trance - there is no body without senses) and what normal people call mind, as "higher" to the 5 senses.

 

I think some say Alaya is actually Dharmakaya, others say there is a 9th consciousness which is the Dharmakaya, but since it doesn't "do" anything, clearing Alaya is like clearing the mirror that is the 9th.

 

So sambogakaya is pure cognition without any feeling or momentum (or 'emotion') or relation to something else (another previous thought).

Is it in the body [as some may call it - "bodymind"] ? Nope. It is....

 

Can I ask where you got this from?  It seems to mix the Yogacara eight-fold mind model with the three kayas - and equate them in a way which I'm not sure is entirely legitimate.

 

For instance the Sambhogakaya means literally 'total enjoyment body' - but you describe it as pure cognition without feeling - not sure this adds up.

 

[EmeraldHead]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

For instance the Sambhogakaya means literally 'total enjoyment body' - but you describe it as pure cognition without feeling - not sure this adds up.

To my knowledge, traditionally, not by specific a lineages terms and teachings, Nirmanakaya has "emotional obstructions", meaning it has emotions and Sambogakaya has "cognitive obstructions", meaning it has cognition. Nirmanakaya lives in Samsara and Sambogakaya in Nirvana.

 

Similarly the Nirmanakaya is composed of 5 skhandas which are like 5 layers of thoughts. When developed their level of thinking feels like an emotion. It has momentum to it or reference to another previous thoughts. Hence it comes like a tsunami, akin to an emotion. If tortured a practitioner who has cultivated only Nirmanakaya has to concentrate and make his/her mind to not hate the people torturing them.

 

Whereas a practitioner with a strong Sambogakaya as well is free much more free and is well aware of everything happening. They do not require commitments or battle thoughts or 'trains' of thoughts - akin to emotions/water. They do not get pissed and decide okay dude, you're getting on my heels but I will let you go this time.

 

So sambogakaya would still have "feelings" but it's not as trapping as Nirmanakayas level of thoughts/mind.

[forestofclarity]

For my POV, it depends on the school. The problem with Buddhism is that it is not a single tradition. There are unifying principles, such as the Four Dharma seals, but the terms vary from tradition to tradition. So it depends on whether we are dealing with Sravaka schools (such as Theravada), Mahayana Sutra schools (such as Yogacara and/or Madhyamaka), Tantra schools, and if so which one (Gelug, Kagyu, Nyingma, Shakya, Bon, Jonang) or Dzogchen (Bon or Nyingma, because they have different terms).  

 

So from the Goenka tradition, which is Theravada, there is no alaya vijnana. Rather, depending on the specific tradition, different schools explain things differently. The alaya vijnana generally appears only in Mahayna schools. In Nyingma, it is generally associated with ignorance. In Kagyu, alaya may refer to Buddha nature. So if you take bits from different schools, it creates a bit of a problem. 

 

3 hours ago, EmeraldHead said:

Not a school/lineage of buddhism. You could say on my own / DITY.

How do you see it?

 

[ilumairen]

4 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

The alaya vijnana generally appears only in Mahayna schools. In Nyingma, it is generally associated with ignorance. In Kagyu, alaya may refer to Buddha nature. So if you take bits from different schools, it creates a bit of a problem. 

In Bön it is called the kunzhe namshe, with kunzhe being the base/ground of being.

[Limahong]

31 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

For my POV, it depends on the school. The problem with Buddhism is that it is not a single tradition.

 

It depends...

 

So not a single... size/category/approach/dimension/tradition/... that fits all?

 

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[forestofclarity]

Yes, that is the Tibetan. 

 

1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

In Bön it is called the kunzhe namshe, with kunzhe being the base/ground of being.

 

[Apech]

5 hours ago, Bhathen said:

Should have been more clear. I was referring to the Goenka Vipassana technique (Burmese Thervada ). The question was more about body scan and mindfulness practice in general.

 

Thank you @EmeraldHead and @forestofemptiness.

 

 

 

Ah ok I have no idea about that system.

 

[natural]

?

Edited August 22, 2020 by natural
Clarity

[forestofclarity]

It makes a difference if we want to actually practice and realize the teachings. But few of us do. Objects, concepts, lights, sounds, maps, ideas, colors, and shadows are endlessly fascinating.

 

1 hour ago, Bhathen said:

The system does not matter;  (finding connections between traditions is interesting)

the major concepts seem similar,

some traditions emphasize certain things, it does not mean the others are not present.

 

Actually ilumairen's answer took me to the 'Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep' and found what I was trying to understand.

 

Definitely ignorance from my POV. But YMMV. 

 

1 hour ago, natural said:

 

Welcome to the realm of:

No ideas, no Known ideas.

No system.

The way of ? being.

No way?

As often exclaimed by the wiser peeps I have met.

Peeps I trust and love beyond bounds.

Is it ignorance?

Peace?

Chaos?

or a mixture?

Kids... 

cats 

and dogs too?

 

[natural]

No real interest in commenting...

Edited August 19, 2020 by natural
none

[z00se]

If you have a torn bicep and you start doing 15kg dumbell bicep curls it is going to damage your torn bicep further.

 

If you do the movement without weight it will pump blood through the muscle and speed healing

 

If you add more weight it will hurt more, and heal faster - to a point, where the damage you do will slow healing, or eventually start you going backwards in recovery.

 

I believe the same with meditation. The energy can apply stress to a weak mind and cause it to get stronger or break it. If one does 5 mins a day there is probably little risk, if they do a 10 day vipassana retreat it is intense. I think gradual increase of stress would be benefitial.

 

However someone who exercises every day then stops is going to get some kind of discomfort. If one meditates every day and stops they will also experience discomfort.

I think when it all comes down to it just spend your time doing what you enjoy doing for as long as you enjoy doing it and your body will magically begin to adapt to be able to support this better. The faster the change, and the older the body, the more difficulty in adapting.

 

Also, to add to the type of meditation.... So say i have a very anxious mind. I do a calming meditation and get relief..... until i feel anxious again and then i need to meditate again. Short term relief, long term aggrivation because i lose my ability to cope.

 

Say i have an very anxious mind and i do energising meditation. I feel more anxious, i am forced to deal with the situation and in doing that become better and dealing with the anxiety. Short term aggrivation, longer term relief.

 

There are pros and cons with either approach, try both, try none, trying is the only way to find the best way