The necessity of thought.

[idiot_stimpy]

Quote

From the Famous Dzogchen Tibetan Book of the Dead by Padmasambhava

 

“Appearances are not erroneous in themselves, but because of your grasping at them, errors come into existence.  But if you know that these thoughts only grasp at things which are mind, then they will be liberated by themselves.”

 

“Everything that appears is but a manifestation of mind.  Even though the entire external inanimate universe appears to you, it is but a manifestation of mind."

 

“Even though all of the sentient beings of the six realms appear to you, they are but a manifestation of mind.”

 

“Even though the happiness of humans and the delights of the Devas in heaven appear to you, they are but manifestations of mind.”

 

“Even though the sorrows of the three evil destinies appear to you, they are but manifestations of mind.”

 

“Even though the five poisons representing ignorance and the passions appear to you, they are but manifestations of mind."

 

“Even though intrinsic awareness which is self-originated primal awareness appears to you, it is but a manifestation of mind.”

 

“Even though good thoughts along the way to Nirvāna appear to you, they are but manifestations of mind.”

 

“Even though obstacles due to demons and evil spirits appear to you, they are but manifestations of mind.”

 

“Even though the gods and other excellent attainments appear to you, they are but manifestations of mind.”

 

“Even though various kinds of purity appear to you, they are but manifestations of mind.”

 

“Even though (the experience) of remaining in a state of one-pointed concentration without any discursive thoughts appears to you, it is but a manifestation of mind.”

 

“Even though the colors that are the characteristics of things appear to you, they are but manifestations of mind.”

 

“Even though a state without characteristics and without conceptual elaborations appears to you, it is but a manifestation of mind.”

 

“Even though the nonduality of the one and the many appears to you, it is but a manifestation of mind.”

 

“Even though existence and non-existence which are not created anywhere appear to you, they are but manifestations of mind.”

 

“There exist no appearances whatsoever that can be understood as not coming from mind.”

 

(“mind” as used here, is “nature of mind” or rigpa;  all appearances or phenomena are directly the tsal of rigpa)

 

[doc benway]

I find it confusing when mind and Nature are used interchangeably 

[Apech]

8 hours ago, steve said:

I find it confusing when mind and Nature are used interchangeably 

 

Many Sanskrit and Tibetan terms should be left in their original because adequate translations have to yet been found.

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

Many Sanskrit and Tibetan terms should be left in their original because adequate translations have to yet been found.

 

Chapter 5 of this book explains how Sanskrit words are not directly translatable - its written from a Hindu perspective (arguably) but is very illuminating:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Being-Different-Challenge-Western-Universalism-ebook/dp/B005UQ3YT8/ref=sr_1_1?crid=143NYD4KXPZP8&dchild=1&keywords=being+different+rajiv+malhotra&qid=1598617206&sprefix=being+different+%2Caps%2C278&sr=8-1

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

Many Sanskrit and Tibetan terms should be left in their original because adequate translations have to yet been found.

 

It can get even more complicated in Bön studies.

There is a mixture of Sanskrit, Tibetan, and Zhangzhung to be navigated...

[forestofclarity]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Many Sanskrit and Tibetan terms should be left in their original because adequate translations have to yet been found.

 

That would be nice. I appreciate it when translators include key terms in the back, or put them in parenthesis. I feel like I am constantly having to "untranslate" key terms so I know what they're talking about. 

[manitou]

13 hours ago, steve said:

I find it confusing when mind and Nature are used interchangeably 

 

 

But how does nature not fit into mind?  My understanding (conjecture according to my conditioning) is that there is enough awareness in even inanimate objects to retain their form.  Are you speaking of Mother Nature or the nature of mind?

 

 I'm thinking it's the same thing.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by manitou
Because it was getting way too complicated

[doc benway]

32 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

But how does nature not fit into mind?  My understanding (conjecture according to my conditioning) is that there is enough awareness in even inanimate objects to retain their form.  Are you speaking of Mother Nature or the nature of mind?

 

 I'm thinking it's the same thing.

 

 

 

I'm referring to the Nature of Mind.

I should have been more clear, especially when complaining about someone else's lack of clarity!

 

[Limahong]

16 hours ago, steve said:

I find it confusing when mind and Nature are used interchangeably

 

3 hours ago, manitou said:

But how does nature not fit into mind?  My understanding (conjecture according to my conditioning) is that there is enough awareness in even inanimate objects to retain their form.  Are you speaking of Mother Nature or the nature of mind?

 

Then how do I tackle the ~ necessity of thought... in relation to content and context (I)?

 

[Limahong]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

Many Sanskrit and Tibetan terms should be left in their original because adequate translations have to yet been found.

 

7 hours ago, steve said:

It can get even more complicated in Bön studies.

There is a mixture of Sanskrit, Tibetan, and Zhangzhung to be navigated...

 

5 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

That would be nice. I appreciate it when translators include key terms in the back, or put them in parenthesis. I feel like I am constantly having to "untranslate" key terms so I know what they're talking about. 

 

Then how do I tackle the ~ necessity of thought... in relation to content and context (II)?

 

 

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

 

 

Then how do I tackle the ~ necessity of thought... in relation to content and context (II)?

 

 

 

You work out why thought is necessary and what it is for.

[Apech]

Necessity is from PIE roots meaning 'not yielding' = not ceasing or withdrawing.  You could say it means continuously present.

 

Thought from PIE root *tong = to think, feel.

 

In our minds there is a continuous thought process - and thoughts span everything from abstract ideas to vaguely formed feeling.  There are different types of thought as I said above.  As homo sapiens they are as essential to our being as the organs of our body.  Why is this????

[silent thunder]

What about thinking about thinking... which is what we're up to here...

 

is it necessary?

[Limahong]

13 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

You work out why thought is necessary and what it is for.

 

Good morning Apech,

 

If my thought just surfaces ~ I think it is not necessary for me to work out why a thought is necessary or not necessary.

 

It is close to breakfast time at my end and it is necessary for me to grab a grub.

 

- Anand

 

 

 

[Limahong]

6 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

What about thinking about thinking...

 

Hi Creighton,

 

At the moment I am thinking about eating.

 

Food for thought?

 

You carry on thinking about thinking... while it is necessary for me to think about food.

 

Wish I can send you a picture of the food I am craving for.

 

A great weekend.

 

- Anand

 

[silent thunder]

2 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Creighton,

 

At the moment I am thinking about eating.

 

Food for thought?

 

You carry on thinking about thinking... while it is necessary for me to think about food.

 

Wish I can send you a picture of the food I am craving for.

 

A great weekend.

 

- Anand

 

Enjoy your food thoughts!

 

I'm currently thinking about my good friend^(s) across the globe... and this incredible digital garden.

To think.... I've made friends all over the globe whom I've never seen face to face.

Because of this place where we meet and share... our thoughts.

This seems quite necessary to me.

 

That's an amazing thought.

An even more wonderful feeling^(thought).

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by silent thunder

[Limahong]

 

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

... even more wonderful feeling...

 

Definitely...

 

F E E L I N G

 ... over thought

 

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[Kubba]

On 19/08/2020 at 2:02 PM, Apech said:

 

 

 

A lot of meditation instruction tells you to still or even stop thoughts – and holds up as a goal the idea of being thoughtless or at least non-conceptual. And yet trying to stop thoughts has been described as like trying to dam up a river using water. It doesn't work so why even try?

 

OK, to sit for while you have to be able to settle physically and mentally. Letting go of a stream of distracting thoughts is essential – but beyond that, if you are practicing does it matter if you are thinking?

 

For a start, the word 'thought' is very bland. There is a huge spectrum of energy intensity, from raging anger, say, to an abstract formulation. Are these the same thing? Then we can also distinguish between object orientated thoughts – which are in essence like commands – and, imaginative thoughts, like dreams or visions – are they the same thing? What about pure-perception into the nature of our mind, a realisation of whatever kind, is this the same as object related thoughts or creative imagery?

 

We have at least three types of cognition and therefore thought going on in our minds simultaneously, and with varying levels of energy. And if we are not trying to put a stop to this continuous process, then what are we trying to do?

 

 

 

 

 

Traditionaly speaking, in order to get rid of thought patterns, thought constructs we are used to, that give rise to identity are replaced by the spiritual teaching (qualified one, ideally that comes from established tradition), so we simply relinquish our thought patterns to another thought patterns which is spiritual discourse, something that creates fundaments to further development of our practice.

 

We can’t really stop thinking but we are able to guide our thoughts into silence, any kind of mind agitation can be pacified this way.

 

Patanjali Yoga Sutras also mentions contemplating luminous thoughts, in order to conquer those that are negative. Also contemplating kindness, friendliness. It gives immediate results.

 

when we need to solve something we hold particular thought “I need to reply to this post on booms”, “I need to go shopping”

Edited August 29, 2020 by Kubba

[manitou]

18 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Good morning Apech,

 

If my thought just surfaces ~ I think it is not necessary for me to work out why a thought is necessary or not necessary.

 

It is close to breakfast time at my end and it is necessary for me to grab a grub.

 

- Anand

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know whether I've done things right or wrong, but I ride herd on my thoughts.  When I catch a critical one I try to immediately change the thought to the positive.  It's a conscious thing.

 

(Sort of like 'Gee, that poor woman is sure fat'.....but replacing that with 'oh, those are really great shoes she's wearing').  Seriously.  And  as I've been doing this for a long time, I can see all the difference in the world as to how my life unfolds.  Keeping the eyes focused high up on the hill, trying to make our words match our practice.  This, now, is my practice.

[Apech]

26 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

I don't know whether I've done things right or wrong, but I ride herd on my thoughts.  When I catch a critical one I try to immediately change the thought to the positive.  It's a conscious thing.

 

(Sort of like 'Gee, that poor woman is sure fat'.....but replacing that with 'oh, those are really great shoes she's wearing').  Seriously.  And  as I've been doing this for a long time, I can see all the difference in the world as to how my life unfolds.  Keeping the eyes focused high up on the hill, trying to make our words match our practice.  This, now, is my practice.

 

Perhaps there's no right or wrong - there's what works and what doesn't work.

 

But from what you say if changing thoughts from negative to positive makes a difference then they are important and necessary (?)

[silent thunder]

I'm really appreciating the thoughts being shared in this conversation.

The timing of a few of them this morning in particular, are deeply resonant and relevant.

Thanks again Bums... you always come through.

[Apech]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

If we are interested in an answer to the question "is thought important and necessary," in a similar vein one can ask the question - is life important and necessary?

 

My life or yours?

[doc benway]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

My life or yours?

 

Why yes 

[forestofclarity]

On 8/28/2020 at 1:39 PM, Limahong said:

 

 

 

Then how do I tackle the ~ necessity of thought... in relation to content and context (II)?

 

 

 

I am sorry Limahong, but I have blocked you because I find your pictures/graphics fill up threads which makes the forum unreadable to me. Have you considered using them less? 

[Limahong]

44 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

I am sorry Limahong, but I have blocked you because I find your pictures/graphics fill up threads which makes the forum unreadable to me. Have you considered using them less? (I)

 

More pictures ~ less wordy mileage on beating about the bush. 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement