Am I who you think I am?

[liminal_luke]

22 hours ago, Yueya said:

 

 

The members who post frequently make great research subjects.  Over time they reveal plenty about themselves outside their intent, including glimpses of their shadow side. 
 

 

I think you´ve hit on something especially worthy of note here, Yueya.  Even online, people often know us better than we think (or, in some cases, would like).

Edited August 23, 2020 by liminal_luke

[liminal_luke]

22 hours ago, CloudHands said:

 

 

When I guess at someone I don't know (I don't pretend to know anyone I haven't met) I think it's better to consider my opinion as at least partially erroneous.

Erroneous comes from the french word "erroné (erroneus)" which means "not exact".

50% of the english words came from french -not from latin as some pretend. I play a lot with that when I write in English because most of the time they are equivalent.

Sometimes something is lost in translation... but it even happens within one language...

 

I liked your use of erroneous.  To me it implied a certain respect.  You´re putting your opinions out there but also creating space in case someone wants to say they are incorrect rather than insisting on some sort of infallibility.  That´s my erroneous opinion.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by liminal_luke

[CloudHands]

Guys that's nothing that spicy, most of us share that kind of personality to some extent. Steve asked and he's big enough to deal with an humble opinion

No worries !

[manitou]

On 8/21/2020 at 6:31 PM, steve said:

I often look at my choices and activity here. I wonder how my engagement with all of you here is similar or different to my meat-life? Do I react in similar ways? Do I focus on similar aspects of self and other in relationship? What are my triggers and my juice? I learn things about myself when I do this but it can be painful. Just thought I’d share that.

 

 

What I've seen of your activity here has always been harmonious to that which you do for a living - being a physician, healing others. 

 

It is obvious to me that you are one who truly tries to walk his talk.  This is no easy trick in this day and age.  I know that you are in consciousness much of the time in your meat-life.  I think the more we can stay in consciousness, the smoother our meat-life goes.

 

I think that this particular Dao Bums community has done much to elevate the consciousness of humanity, in ways we're not even aware of.  Your wisdom and compassion have been a steady and glowing presence, a real foundation stone on which others have built.  In some ways I feel almost closer to personalities here than out in the meat-life.  (I'm loving your expression, if you can't tell).

 

I think that's the practice now.  Walking our talk.  I thank you and all other Bums who have participated in my own growth.

[doc benway]

56 minutes ago, Yueya said:

 

And with that comment this topic becomes very real, perhaps too real. 

 

Something fundamental I learnt from my days as a shiatsu therapist is to never point out anyone’s shadow unless I can be genuinely and fully supportive of them. Otherwise I will simply arouse a fierce hatred from them. Even if asked wouldn’t do so here because it’s powerful stuff. Very emotive. It’s not something for discussion on a public forum. If what you’ve said is real, and I suspect it is, my heart goes out to Steve. My hope is Cloud Hands judgement is good, and Steve is able to handle it.  Though for me it’s aroused much emotion. A taboo has been violated; an arrow shot into someone's heart.  

 

43 minutes ago, CloudHands said:

Guys that's nothing that spicy, most of us share that kind of personality to some extent. Steve asked and he's big enough to deal with an humble opinion

No worries !

 

Yes,  no worries on my account.

 

Actually my intent was not to solicit opinions on my behavior here. My title was perhaps a bit clumsy and misleading. It was a rhetorical question meant to encourage people to look inward. You needed to read the OP to get that I guess and Cloud Hands admitted not reading the thread. My apologies Yueya, if my ambiguity caused any distress. I deeply appreciate and admire the forbearance you display here and find your contributions some of the most stimulating.

 

I appreciate all of the posts. I won’t respond so much to comments about me personally as I didn’t intend to make this about me, rather about each of us taking the opportunity to look at ourselves if we’re willing. 

 

That said, there is more than a little truth to Cloud Hands’ comments.

😁

[doc benway]

50 minutes ago, CloudHands said:

 

 

When I guess at someone I don't know (I don't pretend to know anyone I haven't met) I think it's better to consider my opinion as at least partially erroneous.

Erroneous comes from the french word "erroné (erroneus)" which means "not exact".

50% of the english words came from french -not from latin as some pretend. I play a lot with that when I write in English because most of the time they are equivalent.

Sometimes something is lost in translation... but it even happens within one language...

Are you a native French speaker?

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

I liked your use of erroneous.  To me it implied a certain respect. 

 

Good morning Jesse,

 

Thank you for spotlighting @CloudHands.

 

 

- Anand

 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[Geof Nanto]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

 

Yes,  no worries on my account.

 

Actually my intent was not to solicit opinions on my behavior here. My title was perhaps a bit clumsy and misleading. It was a rhetorical question meant to encourage people to look inward. You needed to read the OP to get that I guess and Cloud Hands admitted not reading the thread. My apologies Yueya, if my ambiguity caused any distress. I deeply appreciate and admire the forbearance you display here and find your contributions some of the most stimulating.

 

I appreciate all of the posts. I won’t respond so much to comments about me personally as I didn’t intend to make this about me, rather about each of us taking the opportunity to look at ourselves if we’re willing. 

 

That said, there is more than a little truth to Cloud Hands’ comments.

😁

 

Thanks Steve.  That you are able to respond in that calm way reveals to me the deep reach of your practice. What follows is purely my take on the situation:

 

During the recent time without moderation this forum, in part, became a battleground of people trying to pull each other down. But because it was recognised as a battleground by those involved, people had their defensive shields up, their hearts closed off. Most of us could see the obvious – namely, that’s not a healthy dynamic for a forum focused on spiritual growth.

 

Thankfully the new moderator team banished that overtly hostile dynamic. I think Steve in particular wanted to make the forum a safe place. I like that but I wondered how it would play out in practice: A safe place for people to reveal their hearts and explore their shadow side, or a safe place where people could build their egocentric persona without opposition?

 

With this topic, Steve in his OP, intentionally or not, has opened his heart to some small degree. He felt safe enough to do so and suggested we all do likewise in our interactions here. Yet what happened shows me how dangerous this can be. We wear our shields for good reason. As I see it, into this opening of his heart, Cloud Hands fired off an arrow. Was it an arrow of compassion designed to heal, or an arrow mean to wound? I’ll leave that for Cloud Hands to answer.

 

In any case I see the hand of Spirit at work here. Growth through wounding and healing are at the core of a healthy spiritual path.  I suspect Steve will be able to hold both his commendable public side as outlined by Manitou above and his shadow side, and hence become more whole as a person (though perhaps not with the easy acceptance he has implied.) This is the alchemical process – a heating of the ingredients with the fire of emotion, leading to a ‘chymical wedding’ of the previously hostile elements within our psyche so that they are transmuted into pure psychological gold.

 

But that is not something to be rushed into. It’s a lifetime’s work. It requires much inner refinement; especially deep compassion and humility. Try to force it and the whole process goes awry.

 

 

[doc benway]

🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

Your posts do not disappoint.

 

In thinking about what it means to me to moderate here, there are two potentially conflicting considerations. These are freedom of expression and protection against abuse. My interpretation of what the post of moderator implies is to prioritize freedom from abuse over freedom to express. My hope is that this will foster a deeper, freer, and more authentic sharing than simply allowing as much freedom of expression as possible. There may be a bit of reactivity in my choices as a result of the lawlessness and rancor that were pervasive here for a while. It was certainly not a comfortable place for me to share then. I rarely started threads or shared anything sensitive but feel a bit more comfortable to do so as things are changing. And I know that some points of view or information will suffer as a result of the changes.

 

I recognize it’s not going to be what everyone wants this forum to be. Some enjoy the sparring, the chest beating, or the opportunity to blow off steam. To them it’s a game and that’s fine for what it is. Lots of other platforms offer that. Here we have a collection of some quite unique, sensitive, experienced, and insightful practitioners. That is exceedingly rare. What a shame it would be to stifle the exciting possibilities inherent in a group like this with the sort of bellicose “freedom” of expression we’ve had to endure in the past. I do not say this to criticize the previous mod teams. They have my respect and I miss many of those folks. All I can do is be authentic to my values in how I behave and moderate.

And I do fuck up - just did it earlier today, badly in fact. 

 

In terms of the inner work, I’m currently engaged in a 3 year program that integrates spiritual training and practice with elements of psychotherapy - journaling, writing out personal transformations, group sessions, and so on. So I’m in a place where I’m very open to facing my shortcomings and darkness, actively seeking it in fact. Nevertheless, it is not always easy as you point out. Particularly when we open ourselves to anonymous strangers in a place that until recently was characterized by brutal and unrestrained attacks. I’m still quite guarded both here and in the flesh, and opening to those sensitive areas is my path right now.

 

 

 

[Geof Nanto]

Thanks Steve. Excellent .  I feel very comfortable with all you have said about yourself and your vision for this forum.

 

1 hour ago, steve said:

In terms of the inner work, I’m currently engaged in a 3 year program that integrates spiritual training and practice with elements of psychotherapy - journaling, writing out personal transformations, group sessions, and so on.

 

I think psychotherapy of an appropriate sort has much to offer for those of us on a spiritual path . For me personally, Carl Jung's insights are a perfect complement to Daoist praxis. His style of psychotherapy goes to the heart of what is now called spiritual growth. What I particularly like is its relevance to our contemporary Western psyche. 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Yueya

[liminal_luke]

Becoming a moderator has been a very interesting journey for me.  We all have our stories around power and control and authority.  Psychologically, the moderator role is a tricky one because all of a sudden a person is perceived as having power (and actually does have power, to some limited extent) and people have their reactions to that, sometimes vigorous reactions.  It´s come as a surprise.

 

My father was a lawyer, the district attorney for our county.  I thought of him as a professional arguer, a professional punisher.  Even for a highly verbal kid, he was tough to beat in our diningroom courthouse.  Mostly I tried to keep the peace, a role I often take to this day right here on the forum.  I often preferred to hang back: there´s safety in quietness.  The few times I tried to give my father warning points or issue a suspension did not end well for me. 

 

I haven´t sought authority in my adult life.  I´ve also avoided situation (like jobs ) where people would have authority over me.  It´s easier to avoid the whole power and control thing as much as humanly possible and just do things on my own.  Oddly, my relationship has put me somewhat in an authority position.  My partner has schizoaffective disorder and I sometimes make decisions for him.  Without my intervention, he´d literally stay in bed sleeping until the late afternoon every single day.  Most of the time I tell him he has to get up and go outside, something he doesn´t like to do.  But if I tell him to do it, he´ll do it.  I believe he´s better off getting up so most of the time I do tell him.  It´s so weird though...I´ve become this authority figure telling another adult when to get out of bed.  I never wanted to be this person yet here I am. 

 

And now I´m an authority figure on Daobums too.  Say what?  People complain and say that moderation decisions our group has made have been too harsh and maybe they´re right.  But I´m not rubbing my hands with glee delighting in my ability to punish.  At least I don´t think so.  (If you see me that way Cloudhands, please spare me your not-so-erroneous analysis of my shadow.)  In my own eyes, I´m just someone whose trying to help my partner go outside and order his own green tea.  I´m also someone who likes it when people are nice to each other here. 

 

(Not sure if any of this is useful but I felt like sharing so I did.  Thanks for reading.)

Edited August 24, 2020 by liminal_luke

[Limahong]

21 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

(Not sure if any of this is useful but I felt like sharing so I did.  Thanks for reading.)

 

1 hour ago, steve said:

Particularly when we open ourselves to anonymous strangers in a place that until recently was characterized by brutal and unrestrained attacks. I’m still quite guarded both here and in the flesh, and opening to those sensitive areas is my path right now.

 

29 minutes ago, Yueya said:

Thanks Steve. Excellent . I feel very comfortable with all you have said about yourself and your vision for this forum.

 

 

Has TDB come of age?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[idiot_stimpy]

Attachment leads to suffering. 

 

If we become attached or invested in our online persona, we will feel the need to enrich or defend/protect it. 

 

It is sometimes better to give up an attachment instead of being troubled by it. If we feel unwholesome emotions due to activities on a message forum such as this, its a good opportunity to sit back and recognize more internal work needs to be done.

[CloudHands]

6 hours ago, Yueya said:

With this topic, Steve in his OP, intentionally or not, has opened his heart to some small degree. He felt safe enough to do so and suggested we all do likewise in our interactions here. Yet what happened shows me how dangerous this can be. We wear our shields for good reason. As I see it, into this opening of his heart, Cloud Hands fired off an arrow. Was it an arrow of compassion designed to heal, or an arrow mean to wound? I’ll leave that for Cloud Hands to answer.

 

 

Dear Yueya, from my mind no arrow was fired. I took the opportunity to guess at someone's nature after reading a post related to that subject. Did I say something offending ? Did I draw a disgusting portrait ? I don't think so.

 

I don't intend to heal or arm Steve, sometimes discussing things let us grow a little more but I don't pretend to teach or help or educate anybody in that thread and I specially think he doesn't need it. We never interacted much but it has always been made with cordiality and I always showed him respect and consideration. 

 

So I return you the question ! Why are you thinking I fired at him ?

 

 

8 hours ago, steve said:

Are you a native French speaker?

 

Guilty for that.

[Limahong]

25 minutes ago, CloudHands said:

From my mind no arrow was fired. I took the opportunity to guess at someone's nature after reading a post related to that subject. Did I say something offending ? Did I draw a disgusting portrait ? I don't think so.

 

Hi CloudHands,

 

Please don't think along these lines. Perhaps Yueya is also second guessing as to who you can/might be.

 

I had not taken any notice of you before until Jesse put a spotlight on you thus...

 

17 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

That´s hilarious, Anand -- thanks!  Just the same, I would welcome erroneous feedback from @CloudHands.  As erroneous feedback goes, I think CloudHand´s is some of the best.

 

Jesse is a trusted/time tested contact point for me at TDB. I came him better only after a storm in a teacup.

 

Your sense of humor is infectious. Thank you.

 

- Anand

 

 

[Earl Grey]

I saw no arrow fired by @CloudHands and if anything, what he wrote seemed more like a concerned friend. 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Earl Grey

[moment]

On 8/22/2020 at 10:24 AM, manitou said:

 

 

 

Thing is, I think your meat-life is right here.

 

It amazes me how much of the child I still have inside me.  There is something in there that hasn't aged at all and I still feel like a little kid much of the time.  I never feel like an 'adult', whatever that is.  And yet, I can look back and see that I've made many adult decisions.  I just don't know who the heck that person was...

 

 

 

 

Yeah,  There is real truth to my spirit is young and strong, but the body is lagging.

Edited August 24, 2020 by moment

[moment]

14 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Becoming a moderator has been a very interesting journey for me.  We all have our stories around power and control and authority.  Psychologically, the moderator role is a tricky one because all of a sudden a person is perceived as having power (and actually does have power, to some limited extent) and people have their reactions to that, sometimes vigorous reactions.  It´s come as a surprise.

 

My father was a lawyer, the district attorney for our county.  I thought of him as a professional arguer, a professional punisher.  Even for a highly verbal kid, he was tough to beat in our diningroom courthouse.  Mostly I tried to keep the peace, a role I often take to this day right here on the forum.  I often preferred to hang back: there´s safety in quietness.  The few times I tried to give my father warning points or issue a suspension did not end well for me. 

 

I haven´t sought authority in my adult life.  I´ve also avoided situation (like jobs ) where people would have authority over me.  It´s easier to avoid the whole power and control thing as much as humanly possible and just do things on my own.  Oddly, my relationship has put me somewhat in an authority position.  My partner has schizoaffective disorder and I sometimes make decisions for him.  Without my intervention, he´d literally stay in bed sleeping until the late afternoon every single day.  Most of the time I tell him he has to get up and go outside, something he doesn´t like to do.  But if I tell him to do it, he´ll do it.  I believe he´s better off getting up so most of the time I do tell him.  It´s so weird though...I´ve become this authority figure telling another adult when to get out of bed.  I never wanted to be this person yet here I am. 

 

And now I´m an authority figure on Daobums too.  Say what?  People complain and say that moderation decisions our group has made have been too harsh and maybe they´re right.  But I´m not rubbing my hands with glee delighting in my ability to punish.  At least I don´t think so.  (If you see me that way Cloudhands, please spare me your not-so-erroneous analysis of my shadow.)  In my own eyes, I´m just someone whose trying to help my partner go outside and order his own green tea.  I´m also someone who likes it when people are nice to each other here. 

 

(Not sure if any of this is useful but I felt like sharing so I did.  Thanks for reading.)

 

Always a pleasure getting to know you better.

[forestofclarity]

Given your practice, do you think there is a time when even this kind of positive story-making has to be given up?

 

On 8/21/2020 at 7:31 PM, steve said:

I often look at my choices and activity here. I wonder how my engagement with all of you here is similar or different to my meat-life? Do I react in similar ways? Do I focus on similar aspects of self and other in relationship? What are my triggers and my juice? I learn things about myself when I do this but it can be painful. Just thought I’d share that.

 

[Limahong]

25 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

Given your practice, do you think there is a time when even this kind of positive story-making has to be given up?

 

Hi forestofemptiness,

 

Each life is a road less traveled.

Each life is a story...

 

 

In a forest ~ we must be able to make out the wood from the tree...   

 

 

 

- Anand

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

Given your practice, do you think there is a time when even this kind of positive story-making has to be given up?

 

 

 

Ouch.

[Apech]

I once, a long time ago, went to a meeting of people interested in psychic stuff and there was a woman healer there.  She talked about how everybody had mental and emotional traumas which needed healing.  So being me, I asked her what her's were - and she said her one problem was how to let her light shine fully into the world.  Her 'problem' was her own awesomeness.  I laughed - and she didn't speak to me again the whole evening.  I mention this to demonstrate my high level of social skills in the 'meat world'.

 

I'm not sure we really get to know each other, certainly not on here, and there's a good deal of projection goes on - which I have at times suffered from and also I assume been guilty of.  I would say that there's a lot more transmitted between us than just the letters on the page.  Quite a lot between the lines.  I've even been through times when I've felt the need to cleanse myself of the confused energies which sometimes radiate from this place.

 

I have never, ever felt this was a place where you could really open up - too many trolls and too much random reactivity - but on the other hand it does feel like a community if you accept it for what it is.

[Limahong]

13 minutes ago, Apech said:

Ouch

 

Where is the pain? 

 

 

[manitou]

37 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

I'm not sure we really get to know each other, certainly not on here, and there's a good deal of projection goes on - which I have at times suffered from and also I assume been guilty of.  I would say that there's a lot more transmitted between us than just the letters on the page.  Quite a lot between the lines.  I've even been through times when I've felt the need to cleanse myself of the confused energies which sometimes radiate from this place.

 

I have never, ever felt this was a place where you could really open up - too many trolls and too much random reactivity - but on the other hand it does feel like a community if you accept it for what it is.

 

 

I sort of feel just the opposite, Apech.  To me, it seems as if we are speaking soul to soul.  I've said many things here that I wouldn't say in my meat-life  (a forever thank you to Steve for the new word!)  Even though we don't know each other's physical personas, I think that we come to know each other better because of the inner soul aspect.  For example, I wouldn't know you if we walked past each other - but whenever I see your name on a post, I know it's really going to be worth reading.  From the years we've internet-known each other, I have a general impression of you as someone steady, of great depth, willing to participate, and you give the impression of great kindness.

 

And Steve?  Deep, earnest, shoots for impeccability in his behavior as it pertains to his spiritual path, really smart and pretty darned humble.  I know the intensity of his desire for spiritual understanding - and I suspect that those of us who have been long-timers on this forum all have this intense desire, seeing as we've hung around for so long.

 

I don't worry much about revealing myself.  Those of us who have walked a path of recovery have had to reveal ourselves to others, to groups, to sponsors.  Being an open book feels good.  I have absolutely nothing to hide any more.

 

This is how I see it; if we come to realize that we are The Intelligence and there's no separate entity 'out there' directing traffic, and we can stay in that mindset as often as possible throughout the day - then there is no fear of what some other stranger on the internet can do.  I actually do take the part seriously in the DDJ where it says the Sage comes to no harm, not from tigers, not from nothing.  If we maintain the mindset of the Intelligence, that is the Sagely mindset that will keep us safe.

 

I know that I've gone far out onto a ledge with the sage mindset thing.  But if we don't walk the talk, what's the purpose of all these words?

[old3bob]

On 8/22/2020 at 11:40 AM, Limahong said:

 

... provided everything does not dissolve away.

 

 

 

every-thing returns, including the "One" which is the firstborn, thus 'dissolution' if used in the context of a return is not of the same  meaning as dissolution is normally or often used.