Am I who you think I am?

[Geof Nanto]

13 hours ago, CloudHands said:

Dear Yueya, from my mind no arrow was fired. I took the opportunity to guess at someone's nature after reading a post related to that subject. Did I say something offending ? Did I draw a disgusting portrait ? I don't think so.

 

I don't intend to heal or arm Steve, sometimes discussing things let us grow a little more but I don't pretend to teach or help or educate anybody in that thread and I specially think he doesn't need it. We never interacted much but it has always been made with cordiality and I always showed him respect and consideration. 

 

So I return you the question ! Why are you thinking I fired at him ?

 

Thanks Cloud Hands. I’m happy to leave it at that. To my mind, any further discussion would be counterproductive. I’ve given my account and you’ve listened. Likewise, you’ve given your account and I’ve listened.  

[Limahong]

3 minutes ago, old3bob said:

every-thing returns, including the "One" which is the firstborn, thus 'dissolution' if used in the context of a return is not of the same  meaning as dissolution is normally or often used.

 

 

Every-thing <=> No-thing?

 

 

[old3bob]

I'd suggest  chapter one... 

[Limahong]

7 minutes ago, Yueya said:

Thanks Cloud Hands. I’m happy to leave it at that. To my mind, any further discussion would be counterproductive. I’ve given my account and you’ve listened. Likewise, you’ve given your account and I’ve listened.

 

 

 

 

[silent thunder]

21 hours ago, Yueya said:

Growth through wounding and healing are at the core of a healthy spiritual path.

Thank you for this... very synchronous for me.

 

deeply resonant and beneficial in the moment.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by silent thunder
added 'for me'

[liminal_luke]

It´s true that people can be kinda harsh on the forum. Still, I do occasionally share personal circumstances on here and haven´t regretted it yet.  A member might occasionally point out that my mode of thought is less than enlightened.  Idiot_stimpy, for instance, suggests that if someone is attached to their online persona (as I am) or occasionally feels unwholesome emotions (as I do) then "more internal work needs to be done."  Let the Bum without attachments throw the first stone.  Oh wait...do people without attachments even throw stones?

 

There´s little to be gained from pretending to some perfection I´ve yet to achieve.  The secret benefit of spiritual and psychological imperfections is that, when shared in a clean nonmanipulative way, they can dispell shame and create connection.  It´s almost worth it.

Edited August 24, 2020 by liminal_luke

[Apech]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

 

I sort of feel just the opposite, Apech.  To me, it seems as if we are speaking soul to soul.  I've said many things here that I wouldn't say in my meat-life  (a forever thank you to Steve for the new word!)  Even though we don't know each other's physical personas, I think that we come to know each other better because of the inner soul aspect.  For example, I wouldn't know you if we walked past each other - but whenever I see your name on a post, I know it's really going to be worth reading.  From the years we've internet-known each other, I have a general impression of you as someone steady, of great depth, willing to participate, and you give the impression of great kindness.

...

 

Blushes (I'm a complete shit in meat-ville  ). 

[Apech]

21 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

It´s true that people can be kinda harsh on the forum. Still, I do occasionally share personal circumstances on here and haven´t regretted it yet.  A member might occasionally point out that my mode of thought is less than enlightened.  Idiot_stimpy, for instance, suggests that if someone is attached to their online persona (as I am) or occasionally feels unwholesome emotions (as I do) then "more internal work needs to be done."  Let the Bum without attachments throw the first stone.  Oh wait...do people without attachments even throw stones?

 

There´s little to be gained from pretending to some perfection I´ve yet to achieve.  The secret benefit of spiritual and psychological imperfections is that, when shared in a clean nonmanipulative way, they can dispell shame and create connection.  It´s almost worth it.

 

Excellent.  Thanks.

[doc benway]

6 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

Given your practice, do you think there is a time when even this kind of positive story-making has to be given up?

 

 

 

Short answer - no

 

Explanation:

 

There certainly is this sense that I need to give something up, and if you take it to the next step, that implies that giving something up will accomplish something or take ‘me’ somewhere other than where I already am; but that is not the view or the practice. Even that is one of those positive stories you point to. 

 

We each find ourselves where we are at any given moment. Thoughts come up, and feelings and stories. Nothing wrong with them at all. It happens to yogis and politicians alike, to my teachers, my teachers’ teachers, going all the way back as evidenced in the pith instructions of the earliest masters. They are the natural energy, the display of the union of openness and clarity as it’s described in Bön.

 

Engaging in a forum like this, with you good folks, something like what I posted is/was natural to arise, anything can come up depending on the causes and conditions. This is samsara, that is what happens. The most important thing is to be authentic to that, whether I share with you all or not. What ever it is, that is the path in that moment. And the practice, if needed, is to leave it as it is, not to give something up. There is an important distinction rooted in the dzogchen view. Less of a subject needed to leave it be than to give it up... you are also leaving be the desire to give it up.

 

Musical interlude-

 

Spoiler

 

 

Can we give up thinking, feeling, stories? For a time, sure. And that’s yet another positive story. Thoughts, feelings, stories, recollection, reflection happen often to my experience. At times they arise and they release, spontaneously, effortlessly. When that is sustained and stable, which is rare, it is bliss - literally and figuratively. 

 

Far more often they arise and I help them to go using a technique, by simply noticing they are there, or looking back at the thinker, and so forth. At other times, I find myself already engaged, wrapped up. They can be very sticky. At these times, they have not liberated spontaneously, or through simple recognition, so there are other avenues, often referred to as antidotes. We can reflect, practice mantra, we can share, have a discussion (with self or others)...

 

The take home is that we need to be authentic to our experience and our practice and apply, in any given moment, what is needed.
 

So yes, the idea of giving up the stories is there sometimes. The feeling that it is something that has to be done or has to happen. And that new condition will be different or somehow preferable. It can go all the way down it’s own rabbit hole. All the samsara activity of the 5 skhandas like to help. And that thought will also follow one of those patterns my teacher defines based on what was needed:m, in our tradition:

 

Superior practitioner - spontaneous, effortless, self-liberation in unbounded presence (rigpa).

Middling - to be aware of the absence of self- liberation and look to the thought, or look back at the thinker, and collapse duality.

Inferior - employ antidotes

Most of us experience different levels of practice along the Way which should trend toward self-liberation over time if we’re doing it right. 

 

So no, no need to give anything up, just leave everything precisely as it is.

 

Once again, the 21 Nails excerpt I recently shared is germaine here. It’s my go to lately.

 

 

 

[Zork]

On 8/22/2020 at 4:31 AM, steve said:

I often look at my choices and activity here. I wonder how my engagement with all of you here is similar or different to my meat-life? Do I react in similar ways? Do I focus on similar aspects of self and other in relationship? What are my triggers and my juice? I learn things about myself when I do this but it can be painful. Just thought I’d share that.

What is the point of this exactly? Your body and how you look is a projection of your mind. On TDB you project yourself through your mind too. Why does it matter what projections the other sees? Both are projections. You are falling into a trap of the intellect. The answer does not matter.

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

What is the point of this exactly? 

Our communication and relationships are increasingly occurring through digital media, often anonymous, particularly as people are increasingly isolated or distanced from each other. I often see people here, and elsewhere, talking about differences in how they are online and in person. I think this is what made me curious. It seems to me that being aware of those differences could be useful, could possibly help us communicate a bit more clearly. I have also found it useful to look at my personal motivation for engaging here. Why do I do it at all? What am I looking for? What drives me to post what I do, to withhold what I do? I've learned some things about myself from taking a little time to look at this.

 

1 hour ago, Zork said:

Your body and how you look is a projection of your mind. On TDB you project yourself through your mind too.

Yes, in my tradition everything is a projection of mind.

 

1 hour ago, Zork said:

Why does it matter what projections the other sees? Both are projections. You are falling into a trap of the intellect. The answer does not matter.

I have found that I do not always see myself with complete accuracy, meaning others see aspects of me that I may not see myself. I see the projections of my mind. Others see the projections of their minds. When I can make space to embrace both, I have a more accurate picture which can be useful. For example, I once had an employee tell me how intimidated they were when working with me. I was shocked. I did not see myself at all in the way they saw me. Knowing how I affected them allowed me respond with a little more sensitivity and awareness which led to a better working relationship. I've had similar experiences with family relationships and friendships. 

 

Is it a trap? Anything can be a trap. I think the content I posted is more like bait and the mind's processes in dealing with it, if unrecognized, are the trap. So for me, it's all in  how I approach it. Different questions come up for me from time to time. I think I'm simply curious about the workings of my mind.  

 

Does it matter? I think that is something for each of us to look at in our own lives. 

Thanks for your comments. 

[forestofclarity]

13 hours ago, steve said:

 

Short answer - no

[snip]

 

So no, no need to give anything up, just leave everything precisely as it is.

 

 

 

 

 

That's an interesting take, although you seem to be saying "no" and "yes" at the same time. It is probably my own confusion.

 

Things are presented differently on the Nyingma side in my mind. For example, Jigme Lingpa in his Fearless Lion's Roar details 8 errors, 3 diversions, and 4 ways of straying. Ju Mipham Rinpoche also details errors in his Lamp to Dispel the Darkness, a book that is especially meaningful to me as it saved me from continuing in a long, long error. Actually, most texts on the Nyingma side detail various errors-- including the source Tantras. There is also a story about Milarepa hearing the teachings, and then sitting idle all day. His teacher yelled at him and gave him a different set of teachings.  

 

Of course, as we know, there are oral teachings, but the above sources are publicly available and this is a public forum. 

 

At any rate, it is interesting to learn about differences. 

[Zork]

2 hours ago, steve said:

Our communication and relationships are increasingly occurring through digital media, often anonymous, particularly as people are increasingly isolated or distanced from each other. I often see people here, and elsewhere, talking about differences in how they are online and in person.

Yes it is true. Why it is true? That is a completely different story.

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

 I think this is what made me curious. It seems to me that being aware of those differences could be useful, could possibly help us communicate a bit more clearly. I have also found it useful to look at my personal motivation for engaging here. Why do I do it at all? What am I looking for? What drives me to post what I do, to withhold what I do? I've learned some things about myself from taking a little time to look at this.

There is no such thing as "I". You know better than that.

2 hours ago, steve said:

Yes, in my tradition everything is a projection of mind.

Ergo, the internet is just another medium for another form of projection.

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

I have found that I do not always see myself with complete accuracy, meaning others see aspects of me that I may not see myself. I see the projections of my mind. Others see the projections of their minds. When I can make space to embrace both, I have a more accurate picture which can be useful. For example, I once had an employee tell me how intimidated they were when working with me. I was shocked. I did not see myself at all in the way they saw me. Knowing how I affected them allowed me respond with a little more sensitivity and awareness which led to a better working relationship. I've had similar experiences with family relationships and friendships. 

 

It isn't useful to try to understand how you are perceived by others. It won't help in achieving non duality. In some cases there is no point in even trying. I remember having been accused of sexual harassment at work when I did no such thing. All i did was tell a joke which had sexual connotations but i wasn't referring to anyone in particular (it wasn't aimed at anyone and i am adamant about that). What prompted others to lie about what I said, i don't know and really don't care. It isn't constructive. The fun part is that I wasn't reported by the people i was talking to but a bystander.

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

Is it a trap?

Yes! Undoubtedly so.

2 hours ago, steve said:

Anything can be a trap. I think the content I posted is more like bait and the mind's processes in dealing with it, if unrecognized, are the trap. So for me, it's all in  how I approach it. Different questions come up for me from time to time. I think I'm simply curious about the workings of my mind.  

What do you expect to gain from walking into a trap that you know exists? The motive is curiosity which doesn't mesh well with buddhism.

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

Does it matter? I think that is something for each of us to look at in our own lives. 

Thanks for your comments. 

Does it? I don't think so.

Don't mention it.

[doc benway]

26 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

That's an interesting take, although you seem to be saying "no" and "yes" at the same time. It is probably my own confusion.

 

 Not your confusion, mine...

😁

 

When I first began my reply I typed “yes and no.” I then decided to reply more from the perspective of my active practice so I changed it.

 

I agree with you that from a relative perspective all of those stories seem to need to be released, even the ones that support our practice. In the dzogchen teachings it’s often said we need to let go of both hope and fear. Letting go of hope, in a very real sense not just theory, can be a tough one and we should never push someone to go that way until they are ready. There are certain things we need, until we no longer need them. It’s Ok to start working with the negative emotions and tackling the positive, supportive emotions when and if we get to that point.

 

From the absolute perspective however, there is nothing out of place, nothing that needs to change. That is part of the meaning of the Great Perfection. That was the point if replying the way I did. Everything is fine just as it is... leave it as it is. That’s the method.

[liminal_luke]

22 hours ago, Zork said:

 It won't help in achieving non duality. 

 

Oh dear...

Edited August 25, 2020 by liminal_luke

[Zork]

6 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Oh dear...

Huh? Did I say something that I shouldn't?

[Daemon]

3 hours ago, steve said:

I have found that I do not always see myself with complete accuracy, meaning others see aspects of me that I may not see myself. I see the projections of my mind.

 

You might find that looking into the concept of Johari's Window is time well spent.

 

☮️

 

[doc benway]

16 minutes ago, Zork said:

There is no such thing as "I". You know better than that.

For most people, most of the time, the “I” is very real. I’m not yet to the point where it does not arise for me. Maybe someday but I’m not holding my breath.  It does not exist in the way it appears and feels but, from a Buddhist perspective, I think it is an error of negation to say there is no such thing. 

 

16 minutes ago, Zork said:

It isn't useful to try to understand how you are perceived by others.

I disagree. I have found it useful in many ways for me. We all need different things at different times. Perhaps it’s not at all useful for you at this point in your life. I’ll accept that. 

 

16 minutes ago, Zork said:

It won't help in achieving non duality.

I disagree on multiple levels. To keep it simple I’ll just say it can help show us the truth of the mind being the source of our unique experience of reality.

 

16 minutes ago, Zork said:

In some cases there is no point in even trying. I remember having been accused of sexual harassment at work when I did no such thing. All i did was tell a joke which had sexual connotations but i wasn't referring to anyone in particular (it wasn't aimed at anyone and i am adamant about that). What prompted others to lie about what I said, i don't know and really don't care. It isn't constructive. The fun part is that I wasn't reported by the people i was talking to but a bystander.

If I say something not intending to hurt anyone and the other person still feels offended, would you say their feeling is negated by my lack of intent?

 

16 minutes ago, Zork said:

 

Yes! Undoubtedly so.

What do you expect to gain from walking into a trap that you know exists? The motive is curiosity which doesn't mesh well with buddhism.

Why not?

 

 

[doc benway]

2 minutes ago, Daemon said:

 

You might find that looking into the concept of Johari's Window is time well spent.

 

☮️

 

 

Thanks, I’ll check that out.

[Zork]

1 minute ago, steve said:

For most people, most of the time, the “I” is very real. I’m not yet to the point where it does not arise for me. Maybe someday but I’m not holding my breath.  It does not exist in the way it appears and feels but, from a Buddhist perspective, I think it is an error of negation to say there is no such thing. 

 

I disagree. I have found it useful in many ways for me. We all need different things at different times. Perhaps it’s not at all useful for you at this point in your life. I’ll accept that. 

 

I disagree on multiple levels. To keep it simple I’ll just say it can help show us the truth of the mind being the source of our unique experience of reality.

 

If I say something not intending to hurt anyone and the other person still feels offended, would you say their feeling is negated by my lack of intent?

 

Why not?

 

 

Because all this has nothing to offer a practitioner of buddhism for the time required. Simple.

[doc benway]

35 minutes ago, Zork said:

Because all this has nothing to offer a practitioner of buddhism for the time required. Simple.

 

Curiosity has nothing to offer a Buddhist practitioner? I’ll have to disagree again. Different strokes perhaps.

[liminal_luke]

23 hours ago, Zork said:

Huh? Did I say something that I shouldn't?

 

It´s not you, it´s me.  I´m biased against a certain kind of very intellectual spiritual conversation common on the forum, especially among those who aspire towards the non-dual.  Sometimes these discussions feel overly abstracted, cut off from real life, contentious and critical.  So when someone shares some aspect of their actual lived experience and the response is that "it won´t help in achieving non-duality"...when that happens I cringe a little.

 

But perhaps others find it useful?

Edited August 25, 2020 by liminal_luke

[Taomeow]

32 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

It´s not you, it´s me.  I´m biased against a certain kind of very intellectual spiritual conversation common on the forum, especially among those who aspire towards the non-dual.  Sometimes these discussions feel overly abstracted, cut off from real life, contentious and critical.  So when someone shares some aspect of their actual lived experience and the response is that "it won´t help in achieving non-duality"...when that happens I cringe a little.

 

But perhaps others find it useful?

 

Not me.  I find it despicable every single time.  

 

One reason I wound up getting interested in Asian thought and practice systems at the get-go was that the first teacher I encountered in the US, who basically initiated me into the whole thing, a Dzogchen monk who spent 12 years in a Tibetan monastery before returning to the states, started out by telling his personal story, from the quest to get admitted to the monastery (3 years) to the gun he carried in his pocket at the time of our first encounters in a questionable-safety urban part of a metropolis to protect and, if necessary, defend his grandson for whose safety he was worried at the time.  If he started out with nonduality sermons instead, I would never even take a second look eastward, and would think of all Westerners who "get into that" as sore losers.     

Edited August 25, 2020 by Taomeow

[doc benway]

The reason I’m with my current teacher is exactly that. He always prioritizes connecting what can be highly abstruse and esoteric teachings to our lives in very practical ways. I once complimented him on his ability to do just that in a retreat and he shrugged his shoulders and said, “that’s my job.”

 

We need to be able to work with this stuff directly and practically or it’s just mental gymnastics. And if we aren’t willing to admit to ourselves where we are on our path, whether or not it’s where we would like to be or where we want others to think we are; and work with that, we’re wasting our time. 

[doc benway]

13 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

... to the gun he carried in his pocket at the time of our first encounters 

 

Maybe he was working with that famous koan, ‘if you see the Buddha in the road kill him...’

😉