ralis Posted September 10, 2020 (edited) On 9/8/2020 at 1:22 PM, Taomeow said: I also feel it in my gut that we're being propelled headlong into interesting times, alas, but for a different reason. I don't think a warmer Earth is what's going to do us in, in particular because all civilizations in our history, without a single exception, were spawned and reached their peak in the warmest periods of Earth's overall cold-as-hell history, and none of them in the coldest periods -- which constitute 99% of all history of Earth's existence. Earth the Cosmic Snowball, that's what we're nicknamed in the galactic presently unmentionable pockets of the scientific community. Even today, at the end of a brief 12-thousand-year-long period of thawing out in our Sun's warm hand (which the scientific consensus of a few decades ago saw as being just about over -- the ice age was overdue they warned, like clockwork, it never failed before and was just running a tiny bit late this time) -- even today, do you know how much of Earth is currently uninhabited due to being too cold? Subtract 57% which is deserts and mountains out of 15.77 billion acres of the total uninhabited surface, that's your answer. Not enough? 95% of the earth's population is currently concentrated on 10% of its surface. (World Bank's World Development report, 2009). Why exactly are "we" supposed to be desperate for solutions to a problem that, in the warming scenario and only in the warming scenario, will go away by itself: the problem of scarcity of life-sustaining resources on planet Earth?.. An eight billion acre question. If I understand you correctly AGW is not caused by CO2 emissions? Edited September 10, 2020 by ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted September 10, 2020 Darling, for fuck's sake. I avoided many (some of them potentially life-destroying, for myself and others) KGB entrapment snares quite successfully when I was much younger and much more naive than I am today. What makes you think I'll jump into any of yours? Really, Ralis. Have some respect for my lil' brain. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted September 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, Taomeow said: Darling, for fuck's sake. I avoided many (some of them potentially life-destroying, for myself and others) KGB entrapment snares quite successfully when I was much younger and much more naive than I am today. What makes you think I'll jump into any of yours? Really, Ralis. Have some respect for my lil' brain. I asked a straight forward question which is based on AGW modeling and you give me this! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted September 10, 2020 53 minutes ago, Taomeow said: Darling, for fuck's sake. I avoided many (some of them potentially life-destroying, for myself and others) KGB entrapment snares quite successfully when I was much younger and much more naive than I am today. What makes you think I'll jump into any of yours? Really, Ralis. Have some respect for my lil' brain. Beautiful feline! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SirPalomides Posted September 10, 2020 40 minutes ago, ralis said: I asked a straight forward question which is based on AGW modeling and you give me this! Your inference seemed to me to be in bad faith. Also I find your frequent use of exclamation points highly distressing!! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted September 10, 2020 40 minutes ago, ralis said: I asked a straight forward question which is based on AGW modeling and you give me this! Yeah, but the thing is, I don't trust you to ask a straightforward question at this stage of my experience with the way you interact with me and some others. If that changes, I might find it worthwhile to have a straightforward discussion with you on some issue or other in the future. Not saying it can never happen, but right now it's not an option. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted September 10, 2020 16 minutes ago, SirPalomides said: Your inference seemed to me to be in bad faith. Also I find your frequent use of exclamation points highly distressing!! Exclamation marks denote a point of emphasis. It is not shouting or anything that some erroneously believe. Further, my question was fair given that I suspect Taomeow is a denier of Anthropogenic Global Warming i.e, AGW. Anthropogenic means caused by humans. I did my undergraduate work in the Biosciences and am well versed to debate this important subject. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liminal_luke Posted September 10, 2020 The world may be coming to an end due to Anthropogenic Global Warming or any number of other reasons. Not having done much undergraduate work in the biosciences, I´m poorly versed to debate this important subject. In any case, I´m fairly convinced that there´s little I can do to evert disaster so I avoid depression by focusing on life´s remaining small pleasures, pleasures such as those provided by the cat photo Taomeow posted. How accurately does the cat in question reflect Taomeow´s attitude? Very accurately, I suspect. It´s hilarious. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted September 10, 2020 More power to good and more advanced science but: a kid with hopefully a decent 8th grade education doesn't need to be a scientist to know that mankind has really screwed up the environment along the lines of co2 and in dozens of other major aspects. Two examples being cut or burn down vast forests and also severely pollute and acidify ocean waters and then the algae in them dies with oxygen going down and co2 going up planetary wide! 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted September 10, 2020 11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said: The world may be coming to an end due to Anthropogenic Global Warming or any number of other reasons. Not having done much undergraduate work in the biosciences, I´m poorly versed to debate this important subject. In any case, I´m fairly convinced that there´s little I can do to evert disaster so I avoid depression by focusing on life´s remaining small pleasures, pleasures such as those provided by the cat photo Taomeow posted. How accurately does the cat in question reflect Taomeow´s attitude? Very accurately, I suspect. It´s hilarious. I don't find anything hilarious about the current situation where Homo sapiens are destroying the biosphere which is the only home for all species. The USA consumes most of the worlds resources so that a few can live better than most of the worlds population. Leaving behind destruction, pollution and so forth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liminal_luke Posted September 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, ralis said: I don't find anything hilarious about the current situation where Homo sapiens are destroying the biosphere which is the only home for all species. Neither do I. What struck me as funny was a picture of a cat, not environmental destruction. It´s true that I was ribbing you a bit in my post above, and perhaps I shouldn´t as I know how seriously you take this subject. While you and Taomeow may have different views on the science, I suspect you share a deep concern for the earth and it´s many inhabitants. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted September 10, 2020 https://arctic-news.blogspot.com Part C is important in that modeling linear effects only describes a limited view of the effects of CO2 and methane hydrate. A non linear view describes the real threat of AGW. Quote A. The rise in greenhouse gas levels (Figure 1) and temperatures at the Earth surface, rising by more than 1°Celsius since 1880, has been underestimated. This is because the temperature values take little account of the masking effects of sulphur dioxide and other aerosols, which transiently mitigates global temperatures by at least ~ -0.5°C. The actual rise could already be as much as 1.5 degrees Celsius, the upper level recommended by the Madrid climate conference. On present trends temperatures will rise to above 2 degrees relative to pre-industrial levels Celsius by 2030. Further temperature rises are likely to be irregular and affected by the flow of ice melt water from melting ice sheets into the oceans by mid-century.B. The rise in temperature of large ocean regions, with much of the warming occurring to ~800 meter deep levels, reduces the ocean’s ability to absorb CO₂. This means that more CO₂ is trapped in the atmosphere, causing further warming. Also, as ocean temperatures rise, the oceans are depleted in oxygen, which leads to increased production of methane and hydrogen sulphide, which are poisonous to marine life.C. Models projecting global warming as a linear trajectory, as outlined by the International panel of Climate Change (IPCC), take only limited account of the weakening of climate zone boundaries, as temperatures rise in the polar regions, notably the circum-Arctic jet stream. The weakening of the boundaries allows penetration of warm air masses from the south, as expressed by fires in the Tundra and the Arctic. Conversely, the injection of freezing air masses from the Arctic into North America and Europe (The so-called Beast from the East) provides further evidence for the weakening of the Arctic boundary. These are likely to produce more violent winter storms and heavier snowfalls, forming direct results of global warming. Cooling of large surface areas of the ocean by ice melt water flowing from Greenland and the Antarctica, and accumulation of warmer water in depth, lead to irregular warming trends, with a consequent three-fold rise in extreme weather events (Figure 2), especially where high temperature and cold air masses collide. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CloudHands Posted September 10, 2020 (edited) On 09/09/2020 at 12:11 AM, Taomeow said: No, not from an amoral standpoint. On the contrary, I feel quite passionately non-indifferent about the amoral things happening in the world. But our lists of perpetrators of those things, their causes, and helpful vs. harmful solutions are not likely to intersect. I feel that many good people who tend to be naturally moral have been taken advantage of and manipulated into countless fake causes and away from countless real ones -- by entirely amoral sociopaths in charge of their indoctrination -- precisely because normal people do have emotions strongly connected to moral values. This is what makes us vulnerable to being manipulated by those who have neither. As for famines, I think they are very likely. There's many different ways to unleash them though if either the sociopathic individuals in charge or their economic decisions make them unavoidable. As an example -- here's just one story about farmers being forced to destroy millions of pounds of potatoes as we speak: https://www.businessinsider.com/potato-farmers-destroy-potatoes-covid19-even-in-a-food-shortage-2020-6 I've been following the supply chain closely since the beginning of the year (not the MSM but the conversations between people who actually work in the supply chain) and saw dozens of similar stories regarding other crops, livestock, and food processing/storage facilities. It's a worldwide phenomenon, and countries that don't want to do it somehow wind up "revolutionized"-- somehow they start seeking liberation from this and that all of a sudden as soon as they don't want to play along. Can "something" cause devastating famines if things keep going where they're going? Alas, I can't presently see how it can be avoided, though I may be wrong and hope I am. Does the sociopathic system and its built-in cannibalistic machinery depend on climate adversities in order to unleash famines on humanity?.. Historically, it never did. So many points to talk about already. Amoral is neutral beyond the (fake) concepts of good, bad, useful, ... Ultimately daoism to me (and others) is amoral. Not to look a the immediate picture, not even the big picture, not even the bigger picture but the ultimate one knowing just "things move according to the ultimate principle(s)", I practice that spirit and lost it. Somewhere I think that if I wasn't in this back and forth movement I would lost something, may call it sensible humanity maybe ...? I digress. I mean applied to the subject, any specie that overgrows its condition is shut down by the new environment it creates (or its own mass). That's the rule applying here. It's very ironical that the last warming peak created the condition for the human race to set up agriculture, which allowed civilization to pop up which created the condition for its destruction through another fast and massive warming peak. In a previous post you said the nutrition problem will solve by itself, well maybe if Canada and Russia open their borders (lol) or provide for the needs, I doubt about it. We are 7,5 billions... that's ridiculous, 7% of the humans who have ever lived are now living together. No situation in human history is comparable . Bubbles will be popping, mental ones and methane others. There are now scary explosions in the deep see, powerful enough to be confused with nukes and now : https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/12561082/giant-holes-forms-siberia-melting-permafrost/ Ultimately (I like this word) the atmosphere itself stay with us under some conditions... I'm not putting all this stuff to scare people, if there is a solution to this problem and politics don't do shit, it's up to us people to get them do it. It won't happen by itself, because you know what ? we're still after economical growth and 5G, even 6G are on the table right now because 1 billion smartphones sold a year is not enough and for us to put connected webcam on our front door... and netflix is 20% of the internet traffic. I could be yelling these words right now but there is now volume loud enough for shouting these absurdities. Now lets see the positive of the situation LOL IF some survive... they probably will have to cooperate, in a gentle way Edited September 13, 2020 by CloudHands english.... everywhere :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CloudHands Posted September 10, 2020 I forgot the illustration, you know, for the bubbles ! https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/12561082/giant-holes-forms-siberia-melting-permafrost/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted September 10, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, CloudHands said: I forgot the illustration, you know, for the bubbles ! https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/12561082/giant-holes-forms-siberia-melting-permafrost/ Methane hydrate is more dangerous as a greenhouse gas in the short term than CO2. The problem is that methane is unevenly distributed which leaves out the possibility of mining. Edited September 10, 2020 by ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CloudHands Posted September 10, 2020 Yup we had that conversation a while ago. That's in the article too : "Methane is 84 times more potent than Carbon Dioxide as a greenhouse gas so the melting permafrost could cause more harm than a few deep craters." 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CloudHands Posted September 12, 2020 (edited) An example of bigger picture to cross with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Human_timeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Nature_timeline Edited September 12, 2020 by CloudHands Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CloudHands Posted September 12, 2020 (edited) Latter Edited September 12, 2020 by CloudHands Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CloudHands Posted September 13, 2020 It's OK guys. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CloudHands Posted September 13, 2020 Countries by carbon dioxide emissions in thousands of tonnes per annum, via the burning of fossil fuels (blue the highest and green the lowest). Based on levels in 2006 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CloudHands Posted September 18, 2020 at least they tried something Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted June 3, 2022 (edited) CO2 tipping point was around 400ppm a few years ago and as of today C02 is at 421ppm. Not good at all! Edited June 3, 2022 by ralis 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
