What do you see? (This is a test)

[Taomeow]

7 minutes ago, steve said:

 

namely my view that our mind/brain creates our reality. Also comports well with one of my primary practices.

 

Aha, that's where our practices have bifurcated! Mine has convinced me that the mind/brain participates in creating our reality.   

It is a co-creator of reality -- neither the creator alone nor the creation alone, neither the "source" nor the "recipient" but both simultaneously.    

 

I've learned about the negative space a long time ago when working on eyesight improvement, before all other practices.  In everyday life, negative space is mostly processed by our unconscious.  Learning to see it consciously, bringing it into continuous conscious awareness without "switching" into the either-or mode (i.e. either seeing positive spaces as we do in everyday life, or negative ones when we deliberately go for that but in the process lose awareness of the positive ones -- so we merely change the "which part is relegated to the unconscious" mode instead of integrating both into consciousness) is quite a trip...     

[forestofclarity]

I would actually be curious about what you learned about eyesight improvemenet, but that is for another thread.

 

Going off of @steve's point, there is actually no three dimensional "space" in the photo--- the photo is really a two dimensional representation, a flattening, of objects and space. The 3-D space here is created by the mind. It is an illusion (i.e. you can't store your coffee cups in the space next to the cow). So are you "noticing" the space, or creating it (if you like, co-creating it with the photo)? 

 

5 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

I've learned about the negative space a long time ago when working on eyesight improvement, before all other practices.  In everyday life, negative space is mostly processed by our unconscious.  Learning to see it consciously, bringing it into continuous conscious awareness without "switching" into the either-or mode (i.e. either seeing positive spaces as we do in everyday life, or negative ones when we deliberately go for that but in the process lose awareness of the positive ones -- so we merely change the "which part is relegated to the unconscious" mode instead of integrating both into consciousness) is quite a trip...     

 

[doc benway]

38 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Aha, that's where our practices have bifurcated! Mine has convinced me that the mind/brain participates in creating our reality.   

It is a co-creator of reality -- neither the creator alone nor the creation alone, neither the "source" nor the "recipient" but both simultaneously.    

 

Coming from the perspective of “relative truth” I would agree completely. When we dabble in the “absolute truth” things get a bit more tricky due to the nature and characteristics of the non-dual experience and concepts like co-creation break down. But the cool thing is that both of our views seem to dovetail in your final phrase -

“neither the "source" nor the "recipient" but both simultaneously.“

 

26 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

Going off of @steve's point, there is actually no three dimensional "space" in the photo--- the photo is really a two dimensional representation, a flattening, of objects and space. The 3-D space here is created by the mind. It is an illusion (i.e. you can't store your coffee cups in the space next to the cow). So are you "noticing" the space, or creating it (if you like, co-creating it with the photo)? 

 

 

 

I once read some relatively technical but reasonably comprehensible  papers about how our spherical eye and the neurological processes that interpret the raw data create a visual image which is profoundly different than what would otherwise be the appearance of our environment. Can’t recall the references at the moment but I’ll post if I can dig them up.

[Taomeow]

50 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

I would actually be curious about what you learned about eyesight improvemenet, but that is for another thread.

 

Going off of @steve's point, there is actually no three dimensional "space" in the photo--- the photo is really a two dimensional representation, a flattening, of objects and space. The 3-D space here is created by the mind. It is an illusion (i.e. you can't store your coffee cups in the space next to the cow). So are you "noticing" the space, or creating it (if you like, co-creating it with the photo)? 

 

 

 

Most definitely co-creating.  The photo itself exists regardless of whether I see it or not -- you've seen it, I haven't hidden behind your eyes to use my mind/brain/eyes to get yours to see it.  The cow exists too -- or at least existed, for someone to take her picture.  So when we see a 2D picture of a 3D cow, it's not an illusion, it's a 2D picture that the mind (mine differently from yours) interprets a particular way, co-creating (mine for me, yours for you) something that is neither the actual original 2D picture (we only look at a digital copy -- and in this day and age we can't even be sure it wasn't photoshopped) nor the original 3D cow -- but here's the interesting twist:

the original cow is not 3D anymore than she is 2D.  The original cow is as many D as the perceptions of the observer are equipped to register and process.  The pit viper sees this cow all the way from the far infrared light she emits (which we only perceive as warmth, if at all) to its ultraviolet radiation (which we can't perceive at all).  The horn fly that might have the mind to bite the cow doesn't see the cow -- its compound eye sees a mosaic of thousands of images that can't be assembled into a cow because the horn fly can't focus its eyes -- it can detect motion though, and a particular kind of motion in that mosaic spells food.  The mosaic is real to the horn fly, not illusory, it can't sustain itself on an illusion, it would starve.

 

See where I'm going with this?  A 4D alien could see that you are 3D, yet it wouldn't render you an optical illusion.  You are still real -- even though that alien could put his cup of coffee on top of your liver without violating the integrity of your body (we should hope).  

[dwai]

On 8/29/2020 at 9:21 AM, Taomeow said:

Please try to respond without reading other people's responses first -- just scroll past them.  

(Please do read other people's responses after you've given yours, to compare pictures.)

 

 

I see an entity hovering over an upside-down animal with one of its clawed feet exposed. Feels like its a cross between a bear and an eagle (talons and all). 

[forestofclarity]

Actually, your arguments are weigh against a reality that exists independently of any observer. The different beings observe different appearances suggests that these appearances, far from being solid and real, and in fact illusory (or magical). 

 

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

See where I'm going with this?  A 4D alien could see that you are 3D, yet it wouldn't render you an optical illusion.  You are still real -- even though that alien could put his cup of coffee on top of your liver without violating the integrity of your body (we should hope).  

 

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

I see an entity hovering over an upside-down animal with one of its clawed feet exposed. Feels like its a cross between a bear and an eagle (talons and all). 

Haha and then I saw the Cow in @Taomeow's later post  

Had a good laugh...

Tells me I should not be thinking about morbid things even though these are morbid times. 

[silent thunder]

Potent lesson in how our perception of reality is actually what we hallucinate of our reality, not reality itself. 

 

Our interpretation of the stimuli arriving in our perceptual process is unique to our conditioning and assumptions and thus is always a subjective map/model or representation of reality... never reality itself.  As this conditioning is created by familial and social influences, some of us share similarities, but it's still an individual process in each awareness, which is why there is often such diversified recall of details in events shared by multiple people.

 

And with the recognized massive influence of our mind's pattern projection/interpretation in co-creation as it relates to 'physical' phenomenological stimuli (such our eyes seeing this picture) and what we perceive... imagine how much more influence 'this builder/storyteller/interpreter' wields when we're not processing actual perceptual input, but simply playing in the fields of the inner eye/imagination.  How much influence does this interpreter/storyteller wield when we are thinking about thinking?  Or operating just in the realm of the noumenal.  It becomes monumental.  I can see why the Buddhists key in on working with this Builder, when intending to ferret out the illusory nature of our mind's ignorance.

 

We truly perceive what our perceptual process hallucinates for us, not what is present.  And this is trained by society and family and reinforced daily by those same influences and our habits.  This is why self reflection, meditation, self analysis is such a part of spiritual pursuits in my opinion.

 

Cognitive Sciences refer to it as 'Fitness Modeling', not Reality Rendering.  Our conscious perceptual tools have evolved to highlight and 'icon' those aspects of perceptual triggers that have proven most beneficial to survival.  Our world perception builder highlights what benefits us most, rather than just processing what is present as accurately as possible

 

And this is beneficial to us as a species and to our survival.  Too much accuracy in vison can lead to detrimental effects, we refine out much of what is available in information to suit fitness modeling toward survival, not accuracy.

 

Donald Hoffman, Cognitive Sciences Professor has devoted over 30 years to analyzing the process by which human perceptual modeling directly distorts the accuracy of the world it interprets and presents to our awareness, to our distinct survival advantage.  Our percptual process filters out many aspects of information coming in through the apparatus, in order to highlight aspects of that info that are most relevant to our survival and that will bring most benefit.

 

He uses the metaphor of a computer program rendered on a screen.  To engage with the program on the computer, we interact with icons on a screen that represent processes that are not rendered and are beneath the threshold of conscious awareness.  We don't see the circuit boards, the soldering... we do not see the information as stored on data disks, or crystal matrices.  We see icons on a screen that represent functions and once known, we understand that the icon is not the actual process, it is the manner in which we interact with the process.

 

To engage in everyday life, we benefit not from complete accuracy, but from highlighting those aspects of the incoming sensory data, that most adroitly provide for our health, vitality and safety. 

 

Imagine two people solving a puzzle on a computer, one is watching the screen, using the icons rendered on the screen (that represent processes having no resemblance to the icons) but which allow interaction that allows one to finish the puzzle...

 

while the other has opened up the tower, and is looking for the 'real and most accurate information' of where the game exists in coding and in circuitry.  Not only is it not beneficial to try and engage in the puzzle by garnering a 'more accurate' input, it's not even functionally possible.

 

Ack, this is getting longer quickly... apologize for the rant, but this is a topic I've been rather obsessed with in the last five or so years in my own process with Doubt and Dissolution of Assumption/Interpretation and in becoming aware of The Builder.

 

For a far more adroit and in depth explanation... Donald Hoffman has several lectures and interviews available on youtube on the topic in depth.

 

The following one, is a short 20 minute intro to the topic in general.

 

 

 

 

And if this tweaks further interest, here is an hour n a half conversation where Donald is interviewed by an M.D. and they discuss the topic of Fitness Modeling and The Case Against Reality and many related avenues in much greater depth. 

 

top notch stuff in my experience and opinion...

Edited September 2, 2020 by silent thunder

[Taomeow]

35 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

Actually, your arguments are weigh against a reality that exists independently of any observer. The different beings observe different appearances suggests that these appearances, far from being solid and real, and in fact illusory (or magical). 

 

 

 

If a reality exists independently of any observer, whose word am I supposed to take for its existence?

Hmm...

 

"Solid" and "real" are not synonyms, by the way.   

 

The different beings observing different appearances suggests that appearances depend on the observer, nothing more.  

Edited September 2, 2020 by Taomeow

[natural]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 

Tells me I should not be thinking about morbid things even though these are morbid times. 

 

Ah, aren't all times morbid?

At least from time to time?

LOL? 

[natural]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

If a reality exists independently of any observer, whose word am I supposed to take for its existence?

Hmm...

 

 

way above my pay grade 

but food for thought 

[Nungali]

okay, its a cow then  ...... but why has it got a foot sticking out its mouth ?  .

[Taomeow]

34 minutes ago, Nungali said:

okay, its a cow then  ...... but why has it got a foot sticking out its mouth ?  .

 

Foot-and-mouth disease?..

[Alas_Arizona]

I see black mold on white washed walls.

 

In the mold I see a skeletal Mr. Peanut giving a thumbs up to a mouse in the clouds.

[skyblue]

A little mouse on lose clothing(top right), standing stop a screaming shark (the shark's face towards right), is pointing at a gigantic mouse in the top left corner

Edited September 3, 2020 by skyblue

[Taomeow]

Wow!  Just incredible how many things one can see that wouldn't be there if not for the eyes that look!  A screaming shark...  a skeletal Mr. Peanut... a flying monster...  a planet, a tornado, a soldier, an imprisoned cat in a cage...  We're all a bit Michelangelo -- he suggested to his disciples to stare at a blank stucco wall for inspiration, just waiting for various images to start appearing in the pattern, becoming people, animals, scenes, landscapes -- and once they do, to start painting them.   

[liminal_luke]

I had my partner try it.  The funny thing is he identified the nose of the cow and the eyes just where they were but still didn´t really see it.  When I showed him he laughed and told me that he was going to say that it looked like a cow´s nose.

Edited September 3, 2020 by liminal_luke

[Nungali]

But would a cow recognise that picture  ?

 

Hold on  -   I'll be back     < takes lap top out to the paddock >  ....

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

But would a cow recognise that picture  ?

 

Hold on  -   I'll be back     < takes lap top out to the paddock >  ....

 

A better question is, if the cow recognized the picture, would she inform you that she did?

 

Animals know we exploit them, and if they can help it at all, they don't put all their potential on display.  An animal can't do anything about being good to eat for another species of course, but conceal its intelligence? 

 

I think cats especially have figured out a way to hide a lot of their abilities, 'cause they're intelligent.  That's why they don't serve us -- we serve them.  I once caught my cat red-pawed understanding mirrors which was something she concealed from everybody for many years, always walking past mirrors without the slightest interest...  until the day when we were doing some renovations and took a large mirror off the wall and it was temporarily left in a place where the cat couldn't have anticipated seeing it, leaning against the wall right outside the door of the room where she was taking her nap.  So, she wakes up from the nap eventually, walks to the door, steps out... and suddenly sees another cat walking toward her!  What happened next looked something like this:

 

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Taomeow

[silent thunder]

18 hours ago, Taomeow said:

stare at a blank stucco wall for inspiration, just waiting for various images to start appearing in the pattern, becoming people, animals, scenes, landscapes

This works so well for me... too well when I'm trying to work on other things.

 

I used to keep a blank wall in my meditation room and would soft focus stare at it during qi gong, standing and stillness work.  It was a bit surprising when still images arose unsought.  It was a novelty, it has happened on and off throughout my life (and I assumed this was an engendering of the third eye work I'd been engaged in intensely over previous years, working in pitch black with eyes open to induce open eye and third eye visuals).   At first they were a novelty and were vague hints of still images, pareidolia and not distracting.  Usually more intense in the early evening during the longer light and shadows of sunset/twilight.

 

Soft focus and ignoring them did not dissipate them, and they'd arise a few minutes into practice after mind quieted.  They usually started soft, vague and then suddenly blossom into photo-realistic, full detailed static images.  Not always in perfect focus, but clear enough to make out all the details... these are distracting.  I continued on, intending to allow and not feed them, assuming they'd dissipate.

 

Just the opposite occured.

 

Eventually within a few minutes of facing the wall.  The images would arise and then they began moving.  The wall shifted into full cinematic scenes, usually in a sapphire or sepia toned filter (depending on time of day).  These are crystal clear and incredibly distracting full cinematic moving images of places, people, moments.  Ignoring them is not possible (for me).   Whether they were ancestral memory, residuals of the location we live, current happenings, or pure fabrication... I don't know.  But they made practice nigh on impossible.

 

I eventually framed a canvas and spent months layering paints on it until it told me it was sufficient. 

That hangs on my wall now and allows me to practice without the wall morphing into a giant third eye/imagination projector.

 

 

[silent thunder]

Of German Cows and Dalmation Dogs:

 

 

This thread just caused me to recall one of the sweetest memories.

One that my wife has told me and retold me and folks we meet, over our life together.

 

She grew up in the Alps where she'd roam free during the Summers, all through the meadows and freely among various farmer's cow herds and pastures as well.

 

She had a Dalmation/Lab mix and they were inseperable, he followed her everywhere... except for certain paddocks where he was reticent to follow too closely... for inevitably... when the cows would get one look at him, and based on his color patterning figure he was a lost calf and come veritably charging over to smother him in motherly love. 

 

He was never amused, but my wife adored having the cows consolidate in a big loving clump...

[Taomeow]

Nice!    

 

I had a wilderness encounter with a whole herd of cows, which for some reason was roaming free through the Bryansk forest in Belarus.  Our party were all taking a midday nap in our tents, after a few hours of rowing, everybody was out like a light -- and a cow woke me up by putting her nose against the side of the tent and mooing.  In my drowsy daze I mistook that mooing for the roar of a bear and, having no bear spray on hand, grabbed a mosquito repellant...  don't ask.  Then more cows joined in, which I again mistook for a whole sleuth of bears, then finally I woke up for real and realized they were cows.  I don't know how many cows, I had no desire to count.  Before they left, they ransacked our camp and ate a can of sweetened condensed milk, a sack of potatoes, and my bikini off the clothes line, but I was still happy they weren't bears.

[Nintendao]

On 8/29/2020 at 10:21 AM, Taomeow said:

Please try to respond without reading other people's responses first -- just scroll past them.  

(Please do read other people's responses after you've given yours, to compare pictures.)

 

To me it looks like a busted LCD screen. The more I look at it i see the hippie caterpillar butterfly talking to a bemused humpty dumpty garden gnome! 👍

[Nintendao]

On 9/2/2020 at 8:18 AM, Taomeow said:

please tell us (if you can/feel like it) what it is that you found out about yourself when seeing THIS picture YOUR way!

 

1. I've seen way too many busted LCD screens in my career as professional geek and tinkerer.

2. I've seen way so many versions of Alice in Wonderland.

a. I've spoken with many caterpillars and dwarven egg folk.

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

A better question is, if the cow recognized the picture, would she inform you that she did?

 

 

Perhaps . I have had conversations with cows .   When I was worried about  Daisy having a calf , who decided to come into the back house paddock to do it, and nothing had happened by sunset and she was lying on the ground looking HUGE , I bought her a honey sandwich , gave her a pat and told her , if you need me or anything goes wrong,  moo loudly .  She gave me a condescending  look and these words echoed through my head ;   "I have done this before,  you realise . "