A message to the moderators

[Geof Nanto]

Two topics now closed fro review:

 

To my mind Dao Bums needs to allow this sort of discussion. It relates directly to practice and the shape of this forum.  From Carl Jung:

 

“The stirring up of conflict is a Luciferian virtue in the true sense of the word. Conflict engenders fire, the fire of affects and emotions, and like every other fire it has two aspects, that of combustion and that of creating light. On the one hand, emotion is the alchemical fire whose warmth brings everything into existence and whose heat burns all superfluities to ashes. But on the other hand, emotion is the moment when steel meets flint and a spark is struck forth, for emotion is the chief source of consciousness. There is no change from darkness to light or from inertia to movement without emotion.”

 

[As an aside, Jung’s reference to Luciferianism inspired me to research what he meant.  I first read this article about how the name Lucifer became (falsely) associated with the devil.  That got me interested in the subject and I wondered at its truth so I followed it up by reading the more comprehensive Wikipedia entry on Lucifer. Heaps of interesting info there. Reading this sort of stuff reminds me of just how rich and fertile a country Christianity is. It's a vast place, full of diversity. Although it feels like a foreign country to me, I appreciate the fundamental truths it seeks; truths that shape our Western culture.

 

From Wikipedia: Luciferianism is a belief system that venerates the essential characteristics that are affixed to Lucifer. The tradition, influenced by Gnosticism, usually reveres Lucifer not as the devil, but as a destroyer, a guardian, liberator, light bringer or guiding spirit to darkness, or even the true god as opposed to Jehovah.]

 

[zerostao]

There are five active reports in today relating to those two threads.

We are looking it over. The locks may very well be temporary. That is one possiblity.  We will update you after we've reviewed it.

A reminder, that insulting members is against forum rules. As far as criticism for the moderation, that's not an issue for me. If it helps, fire away!  Being a humble flawed bum myself, before another 5 reports show up, perhaps, I locked the threads pending review. 

 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

I made no insults myself and saw no insults from the others, unless an invite by virtue in the vinegar thread for silent thunder to discuss a serious issue is now considered a criteria for insults, which makes me wonder how other comments that called ME out in a passive-aggressive manner or directly naming me somehow got no attention.

 

But, c’est la vie: this is EXACTLY why I’ve no desire to do anything but remain in my own corner in the PPJ section and occasionally chime in until someone looks like they are going to misconstrue anything I’ve said or accuse me of eventually saying.

[ralis]

30 minutes ago, zerostao said:

There are five active reports in today relating to those two threads.

We are looking it over. The locks may very well be temporary. That is one possiblity.  We will update you after we've reviewed it.

A reminder, that insulting members is against forum rules. As far as criticism for the moderation, that's not an issue for me. If it helps, fire away!  Being a humble flawed bum myself, before another 5 reports show up, perhaps, I locked the threads pending review. 

 

 

 

The PPJ is supposed to be moderated by the owner and outside the venue of the mods. 

[doc benway]

 

“one idiot says that it's all part of individual self-discovery, even having the stupidity to say that everything at one point was New Age--which shows me...”

 

14 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I made no insults myself and saw no insults from the others,

 

 

 

1 minute ago, ralis said:

The PPJ is supposed to be moderated by the owner and outside the venue of the mods. 

wrong, forum rules apply in all PPFs and are enforced by mods!!!!!

😘

[zerostao]

1 minute ago, ralis said:

The PPJ is supposed to be moderated by the owner and outside the venue of the mods. 

I dont think the owner, if you are referring to Earl Grey his. Ppj or Virtue, his threads, have access to the report box. Regardless, if reports of possible violations of forum rules are submitted, they will be reviewed and possibly acted on. 

[Earl Grey]

20 minutes ago, steve said:

 

“one idiot says that it's all part of individual self-discovery, even having the stupidity to say that everything at one point was New Age--which shows me...”

 

 

 

 

wrong, forum rules apply in all PPFs and are enforced by mods!!!!!

😘

Steve, where is the PERSONAL insult? Seriously? THIS is not in my mind an offense to ANYONE because it’s a general gripe by the water cooler and an opinion.
 

If someone identifies themselves as behind this, where is the evidence? Seriously, this is over reach and sounds like a recent comic I’ve come across called “Happy Hour”, which is about a dystopian America where it’s illegal to not smile or have a positive attitude.

 

https://screenrant.com/ahoy-comic-happy-hour-preview/

Edited September 2, 2020 by Earl Grey

[doc benway]

9 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Steve, where is the PERSONAL insult? Seriously? THIS is not in my mind an offense to ANYONE because it’s a general gripe by the water cooler and an opinion.
 

If someone identifies themselves as behind this, where is the evidence? Seriously, this is over reach and sounds like a recent comic I’ve come across called “Happy Hour”, which is about a dystopian America where it’s illegal to not smile or have a positive attitude.

 

This is one comment that was reported and is being reviewed.

We’ll let everyone know when the review is complete. 

Thanks for your patience.

 

[moment]

11 minutes ago, steve said:

 

This is one comment that was reported and is being reviewed.

We’ll let everyone know when the review is complete. 

Thanks for your patience.

 

 

Do you guys have the capability of pulling out one comment and say it is under review, instead of closing down the whole thread?

At what point does TDB become an over-reactive nanny state?  I for the most part applaud the new mods here. But, there has to be a better way than shutting down entire threads, over one or two comments.

Edited September 2, 2020 by moment

[ilumairen]

35 minutes ago, ralis said:

The PPJ is supposed to be moderated by the owner and outside the venue of the mods. 

The last link shared in regard to this suspension is to a post in a thread in my ppd. 
 

 

 

When I took a brief hiatus from the forum, the moderation team of the time locked the thread for review. Here is the pertinent post:

 

 

And then there was the issue with ilovecoffee’s use of his ppd, and the reports it generated:

 

 

So there is precedence for moderator action regarding reported posts in ppds, and this is not straying from previously determined protocols.

[ralis]

37 minutes ago, steve said:

 

“one idiot says that it's all part of individual self-discovery, even having the stupidity to say that everything at one point was New Age--which shows me...”

 

 

 

 

wrong, forum rules apply in all PPFs and are enforced by mods!!!!!

😘

Five exclamation points. More than I use. 

[ilumairen]

58 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I made no insults myself and saw no insults from the others, unless an invite by virtue in the vinegar thread for silent thunder to discuss a serious issue is now considered a criteria for insults, which makes me wonder how other comments that called ME out in a passive-aggressive manner or directly naming me somehow got no attention.

As silent thunder does not hold a “visa” for your ppd, would his response (if he chose to respond) be welcome?

[zerostao]

9 minutes ago, moment said:

 

Do you guys have the capability of pulling out one comment and say it is under review, instead of closing down the whole thread?

At what point does TDB become an over-reactive nanny state?  I for the most part applaud the new mods here. But, there has to be a better way than shutting down entire threads, over one or two comments.

I'm not sure a 2 hour time out constitutes an over reactive nanny state. The threads I closed are now re-opened. 

[doc benway]

16 minutes ago, moment said:

 

Do you guys have the capability of pulling out one comment and say it is under review, instead of closing down the whole thread?

That might have been a good approach.

👍🏼

 

Quote

At what point does TDB become an over-reactive nanny state?

What a lob!

Must resist....

🤐

🤣

 

Quote

  I for the most part applaud the new mods here. But, there has to be a better way than shutting down entire threads, over one or two comments.

Thank you for that... a little patience please. Constructive feedback is helpful.

 

11 minutes ago, ralis said:

Five exclamation points. More than I use. 

Did it feel like I was shouting?

😉

 

8 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

As silent thunder does not hold a “visa” for your ppd, would his response (if he chose to respond) be welcome?

Does he take MasterCard?

🤣

 

[Earl Grey]

21 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

As silent thunder does not hold a “visa” for your ppd, would his response (if he chose to respond) be welcome?

For the purpose of the thread, which I did not start, yes. But in general? Nope.

 

This visa system is in place because it is a means of mirroring EXACTLY what you are all doing: shutting down communication you don’t like from people you don’t want to hear from. I’m not surprised this wasn’t picked up on, and the responses from Steve here remind me of my own thoughts that there are double-standards to what you hold against me but apparently not against your own behavior, which is unsurprising as well when people acquire power.

 

 I also wonder if all of you and your heavy-handed approach that just shuts down threads and suspends or bans immediately would allow Sean the owner to remain long here based on his own way of expressing himself like what he said to Limahong in your PPJ during the Marblehead remembrance party or his insistence on shouting at fascists.

 

To the credit of the extremely flawed moderation team under dawei and Karen, at least they issued warnings giving people a chance to rectify themselves instead of instant suspension. And at least a PM discussing the behavior helped explain it instead of public rebuke and instant suspension, which at this point reminds me of the very martial law I live in with this country, because surprise, surprise: not everyone here is an American or living in the Happy Hour dystopia.

 

I suppose this comment will be mocked by Steve or one of you all in another show of double standards, and immediate suspension because feedback is considered insulting, but I suppose I show my age as a Gen-Xer who had to learn to deal with feedback both from and to management and to employees when a manager too, because that feedback helped improve both management and its constituents. In the case of this team, it seems more like moderators can’t be questioned since questioning appears to be demeaning to them.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Earl Grey

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

“one idiot says that it's all part of individual self-discovery, even having the stupidity to say that everything at one point was New Age--which shows me...”

 

 

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

Steve, where is the PERSONAL insult? Seriously? THIS is not in my mind an offense to ANYONE because it’s a general gripe by the water cooler and an opinion.
 

If someone identifies themselves as behind this, where is the evidence? Seriously, this is over reach and sounds like a recent comic I’ve come across called “Happy Hour”, which is about a dystopian America where it’s illegal to not smile or have a positive attitude.

 

 

Earl,

 

The quote above appears to be about a particular person, presumably a Bum.  This person is not identified and I don´t know who you mean but that doesn´t make it any less insulting.  

 

If I´m misunderstanding in some way, would you like to explain what you mean?

Edited September 2, 2020 by liminal_luke

[ilumairen]

25 minutes ago, moment said:

 

Do you guys have the capability of pulling out one comment and say it is under review, instead of closing down the whole thread?

 

We would be able to hide a post which generated reports while we reviewed, but if I am remembering correctly there was some consternation over the hiding of posts as well.

 

Quote

At what point does TDB become an over-reactive nanny state? 
 

 

Hopefully never. We have requested members report what they have issue with, and issued reassurances reports would be considered and member’s voices be heard. So how would you suggest we carry this out, without nannying? 

 

Quote

I for the most part applaud the new mods here. But, there has to be a better way than shutting down entire threads, over one or two comments.

Thank you, and if you’re now good with hiding the posts under review we now have more clear direction from the membership. If not, then I await the brainstorming session and creative input this topic may deserve.

[moment]

7 minutes ago, steve said:

That might have been a good approach.

👍🏼

 

What a lob!

Must resist....

🤐

🤣

 

Thank you for that... a little patience please. Constructive feedback is helpful.

 

Did it feel like I was shouting?

😉

re

Does he take MasterCard?

🤣

 

I believe lobs are more constructive in these circumstances, fastballs might get the thread locked down for review. Plus you got a laugh out of it-- usually a good thing!

[Earl Grey]

2 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

 

Earl,

 

The quote above to be about a particular person, presumably a Bum.  This person is not identified and I don´t know who you mean but that doesn´t make it any less insulting.  

 

If I´m misunderstanding in some way, would you like to explain what you mean?

Before I answer you, is this an actual attempt at dialogue or bait to self-incriminate myself? What good will my answer do for me, someone who was ALREADY suspended for an accusation when nobody asked me what I meant and ASSUMED?

Edited September 2, 2020 by Earl Grey

[liminal_luke]

It´s an attempt at dialogue.  (oops...I noticed I left out the word "appears"...as in "the quote above appears to be...")

Edited September 2, 2020 by liminal_luke

[moment]

18 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

We would be able to hide a post which generated reports while we reviewed, but if I am remembering correctly there was some consternation over the hiding of posts as well.

 

 

Hopefully never. We have requested members report what they have issue with, and issued reassurances reports would be considered and member’s voices be heard. So how would you suggest we carry this out, without nannying? 

 

Thank you, and if you’re now good with hiding the posts under review we now have more clear direction from the membership. If not, then I await the brainstorming session and creative input this topic may deserve.

 

There will always be consternation!  But, what strikes you as more offensive--shutting down a bunch of non-offenders or one or two possible offenders for review?

I also am interested in community brainstorming. Let it continue, while screening for true offenses, instead of locking down all of the positive input with the very few (possibly) questionable ones.

Edited September 2, 2020 by moment

[Earl Grey]

Just now, liminal_luke said:

It´s an attempt at dialogue.  

I will answer more fully later today, because I would rather get my training done for the day before wasting more time with people who have already indicated (especially Steve) complete contempt for me as seen in the last moderation thread about me.

 

But I need you to explain towards what end will this dialogue will lead? I already have no faith in ANY of you and no attempt at working with us seems to be present, so as Steve has said that it’s “karma” in justification for his vote of suspending me before, I repeat this and say that I am cynical and reserved about speaking unless there is a guarantee that 1) my opinions will be considered seriously, 2) you will NOT mock it while displaying said double standards, 3) that it is an act of good faith instead of a Witch Hunt and Spanish Inquisition.

[doc benway]

27 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I will answer more fully later today, because I would rather get my training done for the day before wasting more time with people who have already indicated (especially Steve) complete contempt for me as seen in the last moderation thread about me.

 

Contempt?

- the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn.

 

Please bear in mind that we’re talking about comments made in an elitist and restricted sub-forum set up by Earl where all unwanted comments are excluded. I’m much quicker to intervene to defend those not given a voice... that’s karma. The universe is what we make of it.

 

If you felt that from our previous interaction, I genuinely apologize. That’s not what I intend to convey at this moment or in the future. I acknowledge that I can be harsh.

 

 

Quote

 

But I need you to explain towards what end will this dialogue will lead? I already have no faith in ANY of you and no attempt at working with us seems to be present, so as Steve has said that it’s “karma” in justification for his vote of suspending me before, I repeat this and say that I am cynical and reserved about speaking unless there is a guarantee that 1) my opinions will be considered seriously, 2) you will NOT mock it while displaying said double standards, 3) that it is an act of good faith instead of a Witch Hunt and Spanish Inquisition.

 

I promise to abstain from any decision making on this topic if that helps any. I trust the team 100%

[ralis]

2 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Contempt?

- the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn.

 

Please bear in mind that we’re talking about comments made in an elitist and restricted sub-forum set up by Earl where all unwanted comments are excluded. I’m much quicker to intervene to defend those not given a voice... that’s karma. The universe is what we make of it.

 

 

 

I promise to abstain from any decision making on this topic if that helps any. I trust the team 100%

It is not karma. Karma is a religious belief system and has no legal or any other basis to impose moderation on anyone. The universe is far too complex for anyone to “create their own reality” as you so stated. 

[moment]

1 hour ago, zerostao said:

I'm not sure a 2 hour time out constitutes an over reactive nanny state. The threads I closed are now re-opened. 

I did not say it was an over reactive nanny state.  I asked at what point does TDB become an over reactive nanny state?  It was a purposely nuanced question, as a segue for the future.

Thank you for re-opening them.

Edited September 2, 2020 by moment